To circumcise or not, is it good bad or religious

[franksterr]

Re: To circumcise or not, is it good bad or religious

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see that the circumcision question is now bing asked on every board - not just the Faith, Reason &amp; Philosophy board. dwl</div></div>

The Thread that I had started in Faith, Reason &amp; Philosophy has to with &quot;Is God All-Good? What then is Evil? does it exist?&quot; and not circumcision. As a matter of fact if I am not mistaken you were the one who raised the issue of circumcision in that thread.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mohelim (pronounced as moy-el-eem - plural for the word 'mohel') never mutilate (ie - do the circumcision wrongly so that there are physical problems). If I had sons, I would never let a doctor near them; I'd have a mohel do it. Sadly for many (most?), that's not an option. Mohels only do it as the Jewish religious ritual. I honestly do not know what I'd do if I didn't have the Jewish option of a bris. </div></div>

How do you know that the Mohelim never mutilate?
I remember cases in which they have given the young ones herpes, syphilis tuberculosis and all manner of communicable diseases ....would you consider that a form of mutilation??
Also cases where the infants penis has been physical damage beyond repair and incapable of functioning properly or at all...
Maybe you need to do some research, religious types are good at hiding the truth until its too late then they say &quot;it is the will of God&quot; small comfort when the child has a penis he cannot use.........
How would you define mutilation?

[WitchyOoman]

Re: To circumcise or not, is it good bad or religious

I don't know of any such case. Nor have I ever known anyone who has ever heard of one. Nor have I hard of anybody who has known anybody who has first-hand knowledge of such a case.

That ^ said... I really shouldn't say 'it never happens'. Anything <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> happen... potentially.
I still stand by the essence of what I said about mohels.

[franksterr]

Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know of any such case. Nor have I ever known anyone who has ever heard of one. Nor have I hard of anybody who has known anybody who has first-hand knowledge of such a case.</div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGNnqyNidY&amp;feature=related

Religious people tend to lie to cover up their shortcomings, well here is one very public example....need more let me know.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A circumcision ritual practiced by some Orthodox Jews has alarmed city health officials, who say it may have led to three cases of herpes - one of them fatal - in infants. But after months of meetings with Orthodox leaders, city officials have been unable to persuade them to abandon the practice..
.
The practice is known as oral suction, or in Hebrew, metzitzah b'peh: <span style="color: #FF0000">after removing the foreskin of the penis, the practitioner, or mohel, sucks the blood from the wound to clean it.</span>
It became a health issue after a boy in Staten Island and twins in Brooklyn, circumcised by the same mohel in 2003 and 2004, contracted Type-1 herpes. Most adults carry the disease, which causes the common cold sore, but it can be life-threatening for infants. One of the twins died.
<span style="font-weight: bold">The health department, after the meeting, reiterated that it did not intend to ban or regulate oral suction. </span>But Dr. Frieden has said that the city is taking this approach partly because any broad rule would be virtually unenforceable. Circumcision generally takes place in private homes.
Dr. Frieden said the department regarded herpes transmission via oral suction as &quot;somewhat inevitable to occur as long as this practice continues, if at a very low rate.&quot;
But the most traditionalist groups, including many Hasidic sects in New York, consider oral suction integral to God's covenant with the Jews requiring circumcision, and they have no intention of stopping.
.The potential risks of oral suction, however, are not confined to Orthodox communities. Dr. Frieden said in March that the health department had fielded several calls from panicked<span style="font-weight: bold"> non-Orthodox parents who had hired Hasidic mohels unaware of what their services entailed.</span>
Defenders of oral suction say there is no proof that it spreads herpes at all. They say that mohels use antiseptic mouthwash before performing oral suction, and that the known incidence of herpes among infants who have undergone it is minuscule. (The city's health department recorded cases in 1988 and 1998, though doctors in New York, as in most states, are not required to report neonatal herpes.)
The inconsistent treatment of Rabbi Fischer himself indicates the confusion metzitzah b'peh has sown among health authorities, <span style="font-weight: bold">who typically regulate circumcisions by doctors but not religious practitioners.</span>
Rabbi Fischer's lawyer, Mark J. Kurzmann, said that absent conclusive proof that the rabbi had spread herpes, he should be allowed to continue the practice. <span style="font-weight: bold">Rabbi Fischer said through Mr. Kurzmann that the twin who died and the Staten Island boy both had herpes-like rashes before they were circumcised and were seen by a pediatrician who approved their circumcision.</span> The health department declined to comment on its investigation.</div></div>

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html

If you more about the potential and unnecessary horrors of circumcision let me know

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That ^ said... I really shouldn't say 'it never happens'. Anything <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> happen... potentially.
I still stand by the essence of what I said about mohels. </div></div>
I know for you its a matter of faith - If it is God will, so be it.

[Skelly]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

wth????

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

Franksterr has been deliberately picking fights with me lately, Skelly. I stopped playing along with his nonsense yesterday. He picks sensationalist stuff for shock value. I didn't come back to Jcom for that nonsense.

[franksterr]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wth???? </div></div>

Skelly I am not picking on anyone, nor looking fight just trying to share and learn....take for instant the following.
Did you know the following???
Most people do not know that it is traditional for the mohelim to suck the penis of the newly circumcise infant.
Can you imagine if some black religious group was doing that the innuendos and insinuations....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaWiBzZYG9Y&amp;feature=related

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

What franksterr fails to tell you, Skelly, is that the majority of mohels use a pump to get blood flow these days. The point was - and is - to get blood to flow. The point to the ritual in the first place is the letting of blood, as specified in the bible, and the 'marking' of the baby boy as one of the Chosen People. When oral suction was the only way to get bloodflow, that's what was used to gain bloodflow. It has nothing to do with sex.

Like I said, franksterr is looking for a fight. Plain and simple.

[franksterr]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What franksterr fails to tell you, Skelly, is that the majority of mohels use a pump to get blood flow these days. The point was - and is - to get blood to flow. The point to the ritual in the first place is the letting of blood, as specified in the bible, and the 'marking' of the baby boy as one of the Chosen People. When oral suction was the only way to get bloodflow, that's what was used to gain bloodflow. It has nothing to do with sex.

Like I said, franksterr is looking for a fight. Plain and simple. </div></div>

[franksterr]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

Skelly....... if you want the real and historical reason why they suck newly circumcise penis let me know cause, I am not spoiling for a fight just spreading the truth....it has little to do with cleansing the wound which is the present reason given, and even less to do with getting the blood flowing as our friend suggest.

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

I repeat


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said, franksterr is looking for a fight. Plain and simple. </div></div>

[franksterr]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I repeat


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said, franksterr is looking for a fight. Plain and simple. </div></div>

</div></div>

I understand that you are offended by the truth that I share, but why would you think I am looking for a fight....that confounds me, unless you have another motive

I am exceedingly pleased with the time we shared and hope and pray that our relationship does not devolve into what you are seeking. As far as I am concern you are a brave women who speaks her mind and defends her belief, which is a lot more than most Christians do.
You gave me such a wonderful opportunity to share and learn
All I have for you is tons of loving kindness and respect....PEACE

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

I keep telling you that your nonsense is not the truth. Let's get that straight once and for all. It is not the truth.

I am sorry to have to tell you that there is no returned love for you on my part. And Christian charity be damned, it's only Xavier's insistence upon certain behavior that causes me to refrain from saying anything further to you. If it were left up solely to my Christian charity, I'm afraid that I'd be sorely lacking and I'd have to enumerate it amongst my other sins to my confessor. I cannot say that I enjoyed any of our exchanges. Nor can I foresee myself enjoying any exchange with you in the future. To use the Jamaican words - walk good, franksterr.

[franksterr]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep telling you that your nonsense is not the truth. Let's get that straight once and for all. It is not the truth.</div></div>

All I have done is posted what is printed in NYTimes. Okay so I called it oral sex, after all the mohel put his mouth on the child penis and suck to most people that's the definition of oral sex. Now I do not know if the mohel derived any pleasure from it but I sure do not think the baby did.....Okay lets chalk it up to poetic license

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry to have to tell you that there is no returned love for you on my part. And Christian charity be damned, it's only Xavier's insistence upon certain behavior that causes me to refrain from saying anything further to you.</div></div>
Can you at least forgive???


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were left up solely to my Christian charity, I'm afraid that I'd be sorely lacking and I'd have to enumerate it amongst my other sins to my confessor. I cannot say that I enjoyed any of our exchanges. Nor can I foresee myself enjoying any exchange with you in the future. To use the Jamaican words - walk good, franksterr. </div></div>

I am indeed sorry that you feel that way about our exchanges, and is even in deeper regret that I have add to your sins.What can I do to make amends

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep telling you that your nonsense is not the truth. Let's get that straight once and for all. It is not the truth.</div></div>

All I have done is posted what is printed in NYTimes. Okay so I called it oral sex, after all the mohel put his mouth on the child penis and suck to most people that's the definition of oral sex. Now I do not know if the mohel derived any pleasure from it but I sure do not think the baby did.....<span style="color: #990000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Okay lets chalk it up to poetic license</span></span>

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">I will not. (chalk it up to poetic license)

I am as sure that the mohel derived no sexual pleasure from it as I am that the infant did not.

As I said before, the point to the ritualistic circumcision of a bris is (1) to mark God's Chosen People as specified in Genesis, and (2) bloodletting to seal the covenant. Proof of this is that in case where a baby boy is born without a foreskin, the infant is pricked with a pin to draw a drop of blood in the spot where the foreskin should have been.

Additionally, all of the major branches of Judaism all eschew a mohel using his mouth to draw blood at a bris, these days, due to the risk of infection being passed to the infant. This doesn't man that there aren't some whack-a-doodles still doing it orally. There are nutjobs in every group.</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry to have to tell you that there is no returned love for you on my part. And Christian charity be damned, it's only Xavier's insistence upon certain behavior that causes me to refrain from saying anything further to you.</div></div>
Can you at least forgive???
<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">Forgiveness does not necessarily mean forgetting. We've had this particular discussion down in Faith, Reason &amp; Philosophy.</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were left up solely to my Christian charity, I'm afraid that I'd be sorely lacking and I'd have to enumerate it amongst my other sins to my confessor. I cannot say that I enjoyed any of our exchanges. Nor can I foresee myself enjoying any exchange with you in the future. To use the Jamaican words - walk good, franksterr. </div></div>

I am indeed sorry that you feel that way about our exchanges, and is even in deeper regret that I have add to your sins.What can I do to make amends

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">Don't think twice. It's all right. (my apologies to Mr Dylan)</span></span>

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Pederasty - oral sex on newly circumcise infants

The Rabbinical Council of America - the definitive American <span style="font-style: italic">Bet Din</span> position regarding Jewish ritualistic circumcision.
(Bet Din = the Orthodox Jewish Court)

Follow the above hotlink straight to the article regarding the bris to see why Jews do it. (It's just like I said.)