Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Timmy you raised some good points here part of the reason why politics is not important is the historic tribalization of politics in Jamaica leading to the complete disconnect and lack of understanding of what political representation should do, ie how the ordinary citizen in the Country can use the power of the ballot to ensure their representatives to operate in the interests of the people.

In the Vanguard of this Tribalization, Political and Social Illiteracy is the Church. By directly preaching and beseeching their members not to vote, not to run for offices, and by not educating them on how to vote and what importance of the vote.

These things along with the so called Westminster System have virtually ensured a Political Elite Class that consider it their right to get elected and not their duty to honestly represent the people.

They are assured that not many will in the first instance challenge their right to hold a such political position, and in the second instance not many will understand or involve themselves in the process any level, since no tangible benefit accrues from such involvement.

On the matter of a Casinos it is a debate for the Country and not for the church to pre-empt such discussion by their well trotted out line.
I have not heard anything new from them or really anything at all expect how inerintly evil this is.

The question are can Casion help Jamaica?
Does is add dynamically to Jamaica`s Tourism Product?
Is it likely to do more harm or more good to Jamaica?
Is it better for Jamaica`s to continue with unregulated Gambling or to regulate/abolish Gambling in Jamaica?

We are not Freeport, Monte Carlo, Atlantic City, Las Vegas, et al, we are talking about Jamaica.

One Lvoe!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[
In the Vanguard of this Tribalization, Political and Social Illiteracy is the Church. By directly preaching and beseeching their members not to vote, not to run for offices, and by not educating them on how to vote and what importance of the vote.

What is going on? I am flabbergasted! In all seriousness is this true? Our church allows the election board to use our social hall for voting. There is nothing biblical saying that one should not become a leader or vote for someone that can lead.

I was amazed that Jamaica's resources were not being utilized to the extent that they could (again that would be the beauty of the land and people). I often sit and rack my brain trying to come up with ideas for the people of Harmons to improve their lot. There must be somebody that is genuinely interested in doing something because I have seen advertisements for Jamaica this past winter. I never saw them prior to this year. Air Jamaica (I believe that is the correct name) runs ads and I was impressed with their service.

I guess that my view of Jamaica may be clouded as I did not go to be entertained or wooed. The country just seems to have so much to offer if only someone could lead.

What about those on this board that may be from Jamaica? Could some of you pool resources and invest in Jamaica? Having traveled and lived outside of Jamaica you would know what people look for. Having a love for your country would be incentive to strive to excel and succeed. Would it be that difficult to break the cycle of decay? There has to be a way. There are many people that long for a prosperous Jamaica and all that the country needs are people of vision. Think about it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tim:I was amazed that Jamaica's resources were not being utilized to the extent that they could (again that would be the beauty of the land and people). I often sit and rack my brain trying to come up with ideas for the people of Harmons to improve their lot. There must be somebody that is genuinely interested in doing something because I have seen advertisements for Jamaica this past winter. I never saw them prior to this year. Air Jamaica (I believe that is the correct name) runs ads and I was impressed with their service.

Harmons is in a very poor state of affairs, I heard that the water will not recede for the next three month or four months.

Jamaicans abroad are not in any way shape or form to do any more for Jamaica than the people in Jamaica. I was sitting here listening to Perkins online a lady called in to day her husband was on his way from a nine night for a person that the police killed nine days before.

The police accosted him, assulted him, and might have killed him if a lady who knew him never cried out. They did not shoot, but they put on a few licks on him for good measure. The upshot of this was that the man was so scared he cried and ****** himself, not only that he went to bed on Sunday and never got out of bed till Monday Morning to go to work.

Well after relating all that, the lady said she is leaving all revenge all justice to God.
This is the essence of Jamaica everything will be left up to God. If the people do not want anything else but to rely on God for Socia-Political Diliverance, then you or anyone getting on a flight to Jamaica will not solve anything.

The ADs to Jamaica should show, Jamaica at prayer, suffering in the background and God up in heaven sitting down filing his/her/its finger nails, a thought bubble over its head, with a caption saying: I will get to Jamaica in time.

One Love!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

There was an interesting bumper sticker that was popular a while back in the US. It said something to the effect that those down on their luck should be given a hand up and not a hand out. Perhaps luck is not a good word but the point is that public welfare sometimes encourages people to become unproductive.

Harmons may be an example of an extreme case but the rest of the country needs jobs.

I talked to my friend from Jamaica who is here now on a medical visa. The water at Harmons is going down. The water was at a level close to what it was in the 30's before drying up. He said that he was glad because it was an inconvienience. It also could be an asset. Another friend bought 1000 fish and threw them in. Could the water be used as a basis for business? Probably. Perhaps pessimism needs to be surplanted by optimism.

No. Getting on a flight to Jamaica will not help much if the people are unwilling to look ahead or shake off the doldrums of bad times. The groups that go to Jamaica DO NOT give handouts. Yes, I have given a few dollars to some. However, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we spend working with the people is no handout. If someone is willing to work than they are paid. Expecting God to deliver manna from heaven without the willingness to GATHER it will not help. There is TREMENDOUS potential in Jamaica.

ANYBODY that has an interest in Jamaica can start the ball rolling. Jamaicans seem to need a voice and nobody really listens to a citizen from Harmons. I was surprised though to see that they went there in Sept. just prior to the elections.

I believe that it would be we people who are sitting back filing our nails.

Tuff Gong, I have come to know a little about you and I know that you can live up to your nickname. Sound out loud and clear like a Gong calling people to the cause. Take a Tuff stand and expect results that come from hard work.

I do not mean to sound like a cheer leader but the job CAN BE DONE. It will take more than discussion and will involve much sweat and determination. I have seen those attributes in many at Harmons and I am sure it can be found elsewhere.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb] No. Getting on a flight to Jamaica will not help much if the people are unwilling to look ahead or shake off the doldrums of bad times. The groups that go to Jamaica DO NOT give handouts. Yes, I have given a few dollars to some. However, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we spend working with the people is no handout. If someone is willing to work than they are paid. Expecting God to deliver manna from heaven without the willingness to GATHER it will not help. There is TREMENDOUS potential in Jamaica.
[/qb]

For the most part this is really a waste of time and money.
What is the money spent for?
How is it spent?
What is the intent?
What is the outcome?
What are the real problems of Jaamica?

One Love!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb] No. Getting on a flight to Jamaica will not help much if the people are unwilling to look ahead or shake off the doldrums of bad times. The groups that go to Jamaica DO NOT give handouts. Yes, I have given a few dollars to some. However, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we spend working with the people is no handout. If someone is willing to work than they are paid. Expecting God to deliver manna from heaven without the willingness to GATHER it will not help. There is TREMENDOUS potential in Jamaica.
[/qb]

For the most part this is really a waste of time and money.
What is the money spent for?
How is it spent?
What is the intent?
What is the outcome?
What are the real problems of Jaamica?

One Love! [/qb]

The money is mainly spent in building homes. All sorts of medicines, clothing, hospital supplies, school supplies, etc. are donated. Locals are hired as drivers, laborers (skilled and otherwise), cooks, construction supervisors, etc. Attempting to start up local business ventures is a goal. A project that I would like to see take off is fish farming. Costs would be low and in addition to feeding the local population there is potential to bring income to the area. If the water does not recede totally there would be a water supply nearby.

Jamaica has unused resources such as beautiful beaches that are used more by cows than by people. The reefs need protection as they are in bad shape. The pollution in the coastal waterways is a serious problem. Unemployment is high.

The main industries seem to be tourism, which needs to be developed more fully, and bauxite mining. My guess is that the bauxite mines are not putting as much into the economy as they could (or should).

Family units seem to be pretty much fractured.

I don't know Tuff Gong, help me out. What are the pressing needs and what are some ideas that you feel may help?

BTW we do not go there as evangelists. Most of the people there seem to be well versed on the bible and I am told that it is required study in school.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tim:
The money is mainly spent in building homes. All sorts of medicines, clothing, hospital supplies, school supplies, etc. are donated.

While this is good thing and it is always difficult to knock charity a shipment of medicine and schools supplies is only a temporary fix to a problem that lies mostly with the authorities failing to provide what people pay taxes for.
Not only that these can all be dangerous in themselves if they are not suitable to the needs at the time.

The wrong medicine, too little of the right medicine, the wrong dosages, etc

The wrong clothing, not enough of hte right sizes

Hospital supplies, what hospital supplies how long will this shipment be available, does it match what is in vogue in the local hospitals?

Locals are hired as drivers, laborers (skilled and otherwise), cooks, construction supervisors, etc.

So the main activity is construction, these ancillary services are temporary and is unlikely to lead to permanent and full employment, right?

Attempting to start up local business ventures is a goal. A project that I would like to see take off is fish farming. Costs would be low and in addition to feeding the local population there is potential to bring income to the area. If the water does not recede totally there would be a water supply nearby.

Yes a business is nice, but an education in how to start operate and maintain a business would do nicely as well. Of course this fish farming venture depends on a freak of nature, what is the waters recede. The waters in Harmons is being chemically treated or at least oiled, will it be safe for fish farming?

Here again planning and coordination are important and cannot just be relegated to a personal wish by a part time benefactor(s).

Overall nothing is wrong with Charity and Assistance, the points I am try to make is when these have passed, the people will still be where there are at. The ones in new clothes, new houses and new medicines will not be any more sociologically, and politically advanced than the ones who did not receive the benefactors` largesse.

They will in effect be in a temporary oasis surrounded by a desert of unfulfilled promises, broken dreams and despair, the root cause of which is political, not necessarily of their own making but sustained by their own apathy, and misunderstanding.

The real needs of Jamaicans are political education, to help them to understand that electing or selecting honest politicians that will deliver what they pay taxes will be more progressive than waiting for progress in a barrel whether from the church people in farrin or the politicians at home.

That is is time to get up off their knees, stop praying and take stock of their surroundings, ask themselves whose fault is this. Is it man`s or god`s, can it be changed, who can change it, when will it change?

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Tuff Gong...I wholeheartedly agree that the government needs to institute programs that encourage investment. However the people must also contribute. Teaching self-sufficientcy is a start.

The things that are taken to Jamaica may only cloth a family for a few months or help with medical care for shorter periods but I do not see others doing anything at all there. The government does bring water in. The medicines are sent to medical centers, hospitals, 'poor houses', and the like so it is not an amature that is dispensing meds. Many simple items such as childrens Tylenol are valuable for reducing fever. Healthcare is a precious commodity. Many of the supplies are sorely needed. I was amazed that 5 gallon plastic buckets are even a valuable item. School supplies are much needed whether it is paper, books or pencils.

These trips started as a once or twice a year thing but probably number about 45 weeks per years. There are also full-time employees there. If only one person were to be the beneficiary of a new home it would be worth while. I have been in some of the homes that have been replaced and it is enough to depress anybody.

I too looked around and wondered about those that are outside of the fringes of this program. What of them? I asked one young man (21) why he does not run for an office. His reply? Not me. Perhaps it is a stretch since he only went to school until the sixth grade. Perhaps since he is here in the states on a medical visa he will see that life can be so much different. Perhaps he will return to try to improve things. Perhaps his 16 year old friend who came here permanently will return later to try to change things. Many do return to retire in Jamaica...even to places such as Harmons.

The water is indeed a curse of sorts for now with deaths being attributed to whatever is contaminating the water. Nature has a way of changing that with time.

I also worry that part-time benefactors may encourage expectations of full-time handouts. That is why wages are earned and not charitable contributions. That is also why I would encourage those that are native to Jamaica or even those who have an interest in the people there to GET INVOLVED. I see so much potential but little movement. I agree that it stems at least partially from distrust.

I would say that it is OK for the citizens to hold onto their faith but their part in it begins after rising from their knees. I believe that you are correct and education is the key.

[Diplomat]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]...The church have clearly abdicated the duty they have set themselves, that is to be the moral center of Jamaica. If there is not yet, surely the religiuos leaders in Jamaica should now see themselves in a crise de conscience, that is of course if they ever really believed in morality, or was just merely concerned with picking the pocket of of the believers to line their million dollar suits with silk and satin.

My advice to the Church is to continue to hold your prayer breakfasts. Rastamen continue to wish for the Mother Land, leave Jamaicans alone to arrest Jamaica`s slide into poverty and depravity....One Love [/qb]

So what is the solution? There is more than enough blame to pass around; the Church - generally speaking - who over the years seemed to have lost its effectiveness, the Government who over the past 2-3 decades has done effectively nothing for the country or its people, the people who continue to vote on the basis of community allegiance and tradition instead of common sense and what is in the best interest of themselves, the country, and their future.

Religious leaders should provide the moral compass for a nation. That moral compass is effected through people who while not able to change the entire world, can certainly impact the place where they are. It is to the shame of the Church that this impact is neglible.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] So what is the solution? There is more than enough blame to pass around; the Church - generally speaking - who over the years seemed to have lost its effectiveness, the Government who over the past 2-3 decades has done effectively nothing for the country or its people, the people who continue to vote on the basis of community allegiance and tradition instead of common sense and what is in the best interest of themselves, the country, and their future... [/qb]

What new have you said. The works of the church are entirely inline with the trbal politics of Jamaica the relies on poverty, illeteracy and handouts to adavance their adgendas.

When is convenient for the church to tell their members to stay out of politics they do. When it is convenient for ther leaders to pacify the populace on behalf the politics of the day they do so as well.

They take charge of the social aspect of the corrupt politics that practiced in Jamaican and they do it with out morals.

I never heard of churches in Jamaica encouraging their members to vote, handing out voting guides, comming out as a body against corruption, or proposing any economic or socia-polical direction they would like to the the country that they as individuals are citizens of.

However bring up collection, thithing, handing out charity, casino gambling, nude weddings, or selected verses in the bible and christians are gather at the trough!

The Church has been around much longer than any elected poltician and even the political parties in Jamaica, what have they done with that history, but to continue the enslavement that they were a party to from the start?

[Diplomat]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]...I never heard of churches in Jamaica encouraging their members to vote, handing out voting guides, comming out as a body against corruption, or proposing any economic or socia-polical direction they would like to the the country that they as individuals are citizens of.

However bring up collection, thithing, handing out charity, casino gambling, nude weddings, or selected verses in the bible and christians are gather at the trough!

The Church has been around much longer than any elected poltician and even the political parties in Jamaica, what have they done with that history, but to continue the enslavement that they were a party to from the start? [/qb]

So the question remains, what is the solution? Unlike you, prior to leaving JA., I have heard the voice of the Church encouraging the populace to go out and exercise their democratic right to vote. I also know of "popular" Church leaders who have either started a party or choose to run for office, but the sad fact as demonstrated over the years is that Jamaicans are not prepared, or willing, to embrace parties/candidates outside of the traditional two. So to some degree, the Church has tried to make some inroads onto the political scene but without success.

Having said that, while the Church has it fair share of blame, to lay the entire blame for Jamaica's moral decline solely on it is wrong. The last 25 years or so have seen a brand of politics that has resulted in community polarization, introduction of political triablism, the rule of the gun and other forms of violence through the "creation" of community Dons, among other things. Where politicians are intent on staying in power at whatever cost, of course there is going to be lawlessness. Last time I checked, our fair nation was a democratic one and not theocratic, and in any democracy, the effectiveness of the Church is to the extent that it values are accepted by the country's leadership and its populace.

What I find hypocritical is the idea of politicians using the Church. Other than being a good photo op, what good does it do seeing whichever leaders holding hands at a National Prayer Breakfast, while the monsters they have a hand in creating continue to wreak havoc all across the land? Who encourages Jamaicans to vote for the same recycled politicians that have demonstrated nothing but greed and an unwillingness to take corrective measures to arrest violence and improve the conditions of the people? You stated: "They take charge of the social aspect of the corrupt politics that practiced in Jamaican and they do it with out morals.", and I am very interested in knowing how they managed to accomplish that (taking charge).

The Church is simply a part of the greater whole. It is not an entity out there independent of the wider society, and its effectiveness can only be measured to the extent that the country's leadership and citizens embrace the values it represents. Until Jamaicans get past their own mental slavery and recognize that none but themselves can free thier minds, they will continue to be enslaved by a system that is bereft of practical solutions and the will to find them.

[SisterNancy]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Tuff Gong, I enjoy your posts so much, because
I learn a lot from you, and you really pick my brain --- lead me to question/consider/add to knowledge that I already have. You are one of my teachers, and you didn't even know it till now. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

A few questions for you, which I hope you will try to answer: If I understand you right, you are advocating that Jamaicans exercise their right to vote in order to elect politicians who are not corrupt. At the same time you acknoweledge the deeply and historically entrenched tribalism and clientelism which play a major part in how the system functions; you also acknowledge the extreme economic and political presence/power of colonial powers that contribute to keeping so many people in substandard living conditions. So...I am wondering:

1. Do you believe it is possible to elect politicians who are willing to challenge/change the tribalism and clientelism --- enough to fundamentally CHANGE the way government functions?

2. If you answer yes to the first question, who are the individuals that you think could do this (names)?

3. Regarding the neo-colonial/neo-slavery nature of relations with the U.S., Canadian and British companies functioning in Jamaica that suck out resources and money that rightfully should belong to Jamaicans; not to mention the stranglehold policies of the IMF and World Bank --- do you believe that there are potential elected officials who would be willing to challenge this, i.e., nationalization of much of the economy, or at least to a degree that Jamaicans are guaranteed a fair share of the pie --- including the opportunity to work in/own such resources long-term (I mean THE people --- the masses --- not the elite who have always run Jamaica and benefitted from mimicking the colonial powers)?

4. When you talk of the people electing officials that have the interest of the masses at heart, are you talking about a peoples' movement that would force change through the power of the masses?

5. Do you believe that redistribution of wealth (socialism), as well as guaranteed equal opportunity for education and employment for Jamaicans could turn the nation around?

I know I threw a whole lot at you at once, but all of this (and more that I didn't write) came to mind after reading your last few posts.

Sneaking in two more....
6. Do you think the mass exodus of monied Jamaicans (and others, too) that happened during the Manley years would happen at this time if a leader proposed similar plans today?

7. Do you think nationalization would prompt George Bush to put Jamaica on his greed list --- the list of nations that he wants the U.S. to run/control?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Sister Nancy, Tim, and CEW, finally something I can get my teeth into sorry I came on the Board late today but I will read and answer later tonight or in the morning.

One Love!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

I did a bit of rough math concerning the groups that go to Jamaica through the organization that I spoke of. There is well over a million dollars and growing that goes to Jamaica through church members, students and others. The labor costs cannot be figured since it is a true labor of love. The donated items could have a monetary value calculated but counting dollars is not the reason for going there. I am told that the road was fixed by the organization since it was in such poor shape. How long of a section I do not know. While a million plus is not a huge amount it is a start.

The point that I am trying to make is that the organization started as one man wishing to show his sons that there are many people that have far less than they do. He wanted to show them that economic realities do not necessarily harden the hearts of people. A second trip followed. A third. More people came. More trips followed. Why? Why would men and women give up one or two weeks of their life to spend time there? Why would young MTV generation college students rather go to Harmons than to Cancun for spring break?

Involvement is the key. Once one gets involved the experience remains with you for life. I recall going to visit a family to cut a window into the home that was built by the organization months earlier. A friend had learned that the small chore was forgotten and so we went to visit. As we got ready to leave the home we were given a gift of pears (avocados, as you know) and oranges. The giving of such a gift from those that have little means more than most will ever know. The real nourishment from those fruits was to the heart. The gift will remain with me always.

I have seen the conditions that exist there before. The people of the Appalacian region of the US lived in much the same way. That has changed. It took time. It took money. More importantly it took the dedication of government representatives to get the job done. It takes common people to start the process.

This is not a jaded responce from a spoiled American. I am old enough to remember the Appalacian project and there are still pockets of poverty there. As a kid in a family of 10 I received hand-me-downs from a "rich uncle". The "wrong size" was not a problem because there was room to grow. Although we received government surplus to survive we often went hungry. We had an outhouse in the back yard. Water problems were constant with well failures occuring frequently. We carried water from a spring some miles away. Our house was small for 10 people but it was home. My father was often out of work as was typical for the area.

I have seen elsewhere that you say that a certain writer knows nothing about the realities in Jamaica. Educate all that you can. Get people involved. I see many economic refugees participate in this forum. Imagine a grassroots movement of citizens or former citizens that genuinely care about the Jamaican people. What could they accomplish? Never underestimate the power of the love of the people and the country.

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

While going over some of the old posts I would like to point something out because the subject of tithing comes up fairly often. Tithing to a particular physical church is fine. However, tithing can mean giving to others in need whether that means giving to a family that is down on their luck, a charitable organization OR to your local church. The church is not, in reality, a physical place. The "church" as many know it is actually a simple meeting place.

There are many false prophets, healers, teachers, etc. Benny Hinn was recently exposed but people will still flock to him and he will still continue to build his fortunes. Hopefully the IRS will handle the problem. For those that do not know Benny Hinn he is SUPPOSEDLY a faith healer. One of the news shows did a segment on him and exposed his trickery. A sure sign that a faith healer is a fake is whenever those that are supposedly healed drop dead from their illness. There are always those who will take advantage of desperate people.