Ask the unbeliever

[Diplomat]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] "I know of more than one examples as mentioned in my initial question, but even if I gave you one, it would be meaningless if you did not believe it so what would be the point?"

CEW, that is not the problem. The problem is that I would have had to accept "proven miracles" as established fact in order to answer your question. Now why would you frame your question in such a manner ? Do you really think I would have fallen for that ? [/qb]

Perhaps we are looking at it from different points of view. From my end, it was a case of knowing of medical cases - verified by doctors - where someone had a/some major problem(s) and after prayer, those problems could not be found by the same doctors. So it is not an issue of wanting you to fall for anything. I simply wanted to know from an unbeliever, how they explain something like that, and I got a couple of answers. Interestingly, I think it takes far more faith to believe it they way explained it, than it would for me to believe in God, but that is a different story.

I am having a good chuckle at the fact that on some things, some unbelievers are not that different than some Christians. From our previous discussions on "Divine Healing", you are fully aware I believe in it, so why are you reading so much into the question? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[RollinCalf]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

"Why are you reading so much into the question?"

If you would simply give me an example of what you are referring to maybe I wouldn't have to CEW.

[Diplomat]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] "Why are you reading so much into the question?"

If you would simply give me an example of what you are referring to maybe I wouldn't have to CEW. [/qb]

OK...let me go along with you. About four years ago, John goes to his family doctor for some problems he was experiencing, and after referral to a specialist and a number of tests later, he is diagnosed with prostate cancer. At the advanced stage, surgery would not have helped and other forms of treatment did nothing to cure the problem. Basically, John was now a walking time-bomb. Get your affairs in order and enjoy the rest of your life. So John turned to the Church, and after prayer by the elders of the Church, he returned to his doctor for confirmation of what his faith told him. Batteries of tests later, no cancer or traces of it could be found. John is still alive today and is an advocate to men of color to have that digital examination annually once they are 40 and over. How you do explain this sequence of events?

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Since I was a child, I noticed that EVERY single culture that has existed has had one thing in common, they all believed in God. Now some did have multiple deities(but even Christians have 'angels'), but they also all had one main "Godhead". Then, looking at these different religions, I noticed how much they have in common, ie, many of them have a story about a great flood, an original creation, etc. and even the similarities in festivals, such as the Native Americans celebrated the new moon, which is a monthly Jewish Festival as well.
The Old Testament tells of incence burning in the temple in order to carry the peoples' prayers to God, as the Native Americans would smoke a peace pipe because the tobbacco would do the exact same thing! To me the only explanation for this is that it is no coincidence, the very same God spoke to each of these peoples and gave them their traditions to follow and worship Him in, each in their own ways.

Anyways, hasn't anyone else ever noticed this???

Certain universal themes occur in all disparate cultures and their associated religions around the globe. One may attribute these similarities to a supernatural influence, however, the answer may be more mundane.

For example, the building of pre-15th century pyramids in places as far apart as Mexico, South America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia has led many to speculate that the first pyramid builders crossed the oceans long before Vikings and other europeans. Even more exotic explanations abound when extraterrestrial beings or gods are considered.

However, two fundamental reasons exist for the proponderance of pyramid building practices in ancient times: hierarchy and physics.

hierarchy
The religions of the ancients possessed a strict top-bottom structure. A few priests presided over much of the rest of these societies. Only their deities exceeded the priests in stature. So in order to communicate with the deities, the priests needed to elevate themselves above the commoners. Special buildings designed for worship came about that attempted to physically raise the priests as high up as possible.

physics
An upshot of building tall structures designed for worship is that one must select the right building material to support their weight. At the time that ancient cultures flourished in Africa, the Americas, and Asia, stone blocks provided the strongest support for massive structures. But stone has its limitations. If one attempts to construct a sky scraper out of stone, with its base possessing the same cross-sectional area as the top, it will collapse on itself. Stone is nowhere as strong as steel used in current construction projects. However if you spread out the weight at the bottom of a structure so that its cross-sectional area is much larger at the base than at the top, the worship building constructed entirely of stone blocks will not collapse. Such a structure resembles a pyramid. It is one solution to an engineering problem brought about by the limited structural integrity of the stone blocks used in ancient construction projects.

The similarities in different religious themes found in many cultures throughout the globe may not result from "divine influences" but rather common experiences and hopes possessed by the peoples of all cultures. We are all more alike than we are different. Similar ways of thinking yield similar dreams, myths, and ultimately, religions.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Even with the lack of specifics, I will respond in order that you might not acuse me of ducking the question.

So, the evidence for a causal relationship between prayer and his "healing" would be what ?

CEW, spontaneous regression is a well known phenomenon in the field of oncology. How do you explain spontaneous regression amongst those patients who did not pray ?

[DC]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Hey, Great topic!

1.Why do you think bad things happen to good people?

2.If it can be proven-unequivocally-that there is a God, would you change your beliefs/lifestyle?

3.How do you deal with the overwhelming feelings of hopelessness and how would you encourage someone in that situation?

more later..Got to run...

[Diplomat]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] Even with the lack of specifics, I will respond in order that you might not acuse me of ducking the question.

So, the evidence for a causal relationship between prayer and his "healing" would be what ?

CEW, spontaneous regression is a well known phenomenon in the field of oncology. How do you explain spontaneous regression amongst those patients who did not pray ? [/qb]

So the answer to John's situation and that of countless others is "spontaneous regression"? That requires a lot of faith to believe. You are a lot better than that. I think what you "fear" has befallen you as I do think you are ducking the question. Then again, as is the case with Christians, I see it as a difference of opinion even amongst unbelievers, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

" That requires a lot of faith to believe."

Actually CEW, what it requires is less sarcasm and sufficient intellectual curiosity to look at the facts.

Spontaneous remission is an established phenomenon. And if you plan to dismiss scientific facts in such a caviler fashion, then you are right. This discussion is pointless.

In any event, not only will I not duck your question, I will provide you with the evidence: http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/7/6/516

So again I ask. Now that I have addressed your question regarding "proven miracles", how do you explain the recovery of people who were not prayed over by church members.

[Bandana]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by jaith:
[qb] a friend told me once...there is a god & you're not it

maybe that's the definition of a believer...someone who knows they're not god. [/qb]

My not-so-ex boyfriend is going to hate to hear that one [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thanks for the smile Jaith [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] @ M

[rebelgirl]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Wow lots of questions, ok I'll give them my best shot here, I'm gonna do all the current ones in one go.

Originally posted by Yom:
Okay, as a christian if I invite you to church service would you accept and why?

Probably not, I guess it would depend on the circumstances though. If I were visiting you from as a guest then I would probably go as I think it would be the proper respectful guest thing to do. However it was a situation where we were in the same town I would decline. i have attend some church services in the past with friends, however it not being my belief I don't think it appropriate that I attend a church service. There isn't really any hope of my conversion and I think my attendance would detract from the honest belief and worship of the church goers. If it's a church bazarr or a candle lit peace vigil though I would gladly attend, as I have gone to many a bazarr and went to several vigils held at churches during the last couple of wars.

As an unbeleiver, when you are faced with overwelming situations how do you deal with it.

It depends on the situation. To deal with stress I meditate and sometimes do yoga. If it is something i can affect or solve I will work on the best way to approach the situation an solve it. Emotional situations I will do allot of art to work through my emotions, political situations beyond my control I usually become proactive and will attend protests and participate in campaigns to voice my displeasure. It really does depend on the situation though if you could be more specific I could probably give a more specific answer. But the generic answer would be Change what I can , and not dwell to much on what I can't.

During the 911 tragedy, alot of people where turning their thoughts to God why do you think that was.

I think because in times of stress and when faced with situations that make people feel powerless they turn to the idea of a higher power not only to ease their fears of dying and loss, but also because it provides a purpose to the madness, and the reassurance that a higher power is actually in charge. That the death and destruction is not the end for those that died, and that at some point a greater power will intervene and put a stop to human suffering and human aggression. It also provides the promises that even though those that were responsible are dead that there will be some fitting punishment for the crimes they committed after their death.. People seek god in these situations not only for an explanation but for comfort and hope. at least that is the way i see it.

Originally posted by accepted:
1. Do any non believer consider the christian walk too difficult to live?

No, it is some what easier than a devout Buddhist lifestyle, which my father was trying to live when I was a child. We were vegetarian. for a time isolated and my father spent a large amount of time meditating, no music no extra curricular activities bare minimum possessions (we ditched just about everything we owned except pots pans and some rattan furniture) no TV, no phone, no laundry machines etc, everything that could be done without modern things was. spiritually it was inspiring and fulfilling, and i really didn't lack for anything even without all the things that this society embraces. and i really did learn the value of life rather than the value of the stuff around me. we spent great amounts of time in the woods just listening and watching and thinking about the nature of things, actually i don't know why I'm calling that difficult it was much easier than trying to understand the madness of human society.

i think life in general is difficult no matter which walk your walking. I don't follow a religious path because it isn't in line with what I believe not because i find the lifestyle to difficult. I moving into the boonies at the end of the summer and I imagine my daughter is about to taste a small sample of what I lived as a child because we are going to be living without allot of what she has now, but on the other hand she will be gaining so much more in being able to feel and see the living world around her. I guess some may think it difficult i think it paradise

2. Would living a christian life conflict with your personal wants, needs?

No it would conflict with my beliefs. but not drinking smoking partying or at this point in my life engaging in romantic relationships, and i never did lie cheat steal or treat others badly. I already try not to judge, forgive those who transgress on me and try and spread as much love to those i meet as i can. the only thing i think it would conflict with is my love for Halloween. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

3. Which christian ways would you not want to follow?

the proselytizing thing is something i could never do. and not believing as evil as a separate force, I could not judge others as being minions of the devil or be concerned about Satan's influence on the world. I also could never embrace the idea that there is only one true path in life. I could never view humanity as having been given the earth, or being superior to any other creature on the planet. i could not put the words of the bible above science. And I could never except that the man is the head of the household. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I think there are probably more but that is all that i can think of now.

I have noticed that Christian lifestyle vary depending on the branch of Christianity. for instance JW's probably have a few other things that I wouldn't adopt in my life, and the family that lives up the street where all the women have to have their heads covered and wear long skirts all the time, that I don't agree with either so it would depend on the lifestyle we are talking about

4. Are there any christians you know who really live up to the title, christian?
I have a few more but I'll wait my turn.

Yes.

Originally posted by DC:
1.Why do you think bad things happen to good people?

the way of the universe, it picks no favorites. same reason good things happen to bad people. Same reason why beautiful little babies die everyday. Nature is what it is, and try as we might we can never make nature fair according to our rules. we can do our best to make our action fair and just but that does not make it certain that everything will always be just and fair.

2.If it can be proven-unequivocally-that there is a God, would you change your beliefs/lifestyle?

If i saw them i would probably believe in them but i wouldn't change my lifestyle, but I guess it would depend on what God was proven to exist and what he/she wanted. If it is the biblical God or any god i can't see changing a thing, i live the best life i can if that isn't good enough to please a God then so be it..

3.How do you deal with the overwhelming feelings of hopelessness and how would you encourage someone in that situation?

Well again it depends on what has given me these feelings, but having been there quite a bit lately i can say what I have done recently. sometimes i cry, sometimes i get angry, when that is through my system i reflect on what it is that has effected me. Paint, garden, meditate, and go on with life. It usually passes, truth is though most of my life's philosophy has been based around the realization that there will be things that happen that i am unable to change or effect, so hopelessness doesn't necessarily bother me as much as some people. The human condition has many aspects that we could consider hopeless yet we are not the center of the universe, as individuals, or a species, so our problem really aren't all that important. If i keep focus on that i rarely find hopelessness dominating my reality. Do what I can and not dwell on what i can't is how i overcome that most of the time.

someone else: I would encourage them to express themselves, turn to what has given them comfort in the past, and if they need it seek some professional counseling or help. If it's chemical then I might encourage them to go to their medical community and see if they need pharmaceutical drugs to treat it.

[rebelgirl]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

hey RC and CEW [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Are you guys mashing up this post? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[RollinCalf]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

No ma, he asked a question and then tried to run away from it when I asked for more information. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[mountaingal]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by mountaingal:
i don't know personally of any proven miracles, and before i'd believe that it was a "miracle" (that is, achieved through faith), i'd have to be shown where unexplained reversals of serious illnesses does not also happen to non-believers.

Who said it didn't? [/qb]

not me, lol!

[Diplomat]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] No ma, he asked a question and then tried to run away from it when I asked for more information. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Yeah right! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Anyways, I am taking your "answer" that it is some sort of regression and leaving it at that. Sorry rebel.

[Venn]

Re: Ask the unbeliever

Good topic but I think most of my questions would be for the believers, as oppose to the non-believers.