Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

**SistahD** · 07-23-2003, 05:22 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

((remo)) they had a meeting last week and it was discussed... I will be meeting with them on Friday night and Sunday.... to give them an extra 'push' - but as I mentionned... they are very interested. I'll talk to you again after I get back. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

**Tropicana** · 07-23-2003, 05:45 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Responses to Miss Mention's Questions and comments:

Originally posted by MissMention:
Tropicana, I have to say your whole attitude towards non-Jamaicans leaves a lot to be desired, your whole tone is totally disrespectful.

Excuse me that is not true. I communicate regularly and amicably with MANY non-Jamaicans on the board (SistahD, Ochigal, Mully, Rebel, BritsHonee to name just a few). For the record, there are some Jamaicans on here with whom I do NOT interact easily. So, nationalith noh ave nutten fe do wid it. When people are going to come on here and state information that is incorrect, inaccurate and just plain debasing, I AND other Jamaicans do have a right to speak up about it without being insulted by statements such as the ones I have just posted in the GD.

You claim certain of your statements are not insults, but what on earth should they be taken as??

Just because
someone is not Jamaican does not mean you automatically know more about everything concerning Jamaican because you are Jamaican.

Of course not. Statements were made that were inaccurate and when I AND others attempted to correct the statement we received VERY rude responses hence MY statement.

Here's a comment I find to deliberately exclude non-Jamaicans

"There's more but got to run. Perhaps other Jamaicans can add more info."

Oh please, is that the best you can come up with?

Does that mean anyone who isn't Jamaican would have nothing of value to add??

Of course not. I was specifically inviting other Jamaicans who are often reluctant to post in this area of the board (for reasons that I now FULLY understand) to make a contribution. There is NOTHING wrong with that in fact Sienna has said the same thing over in the GD.

On another topic you wrote

"Agreed. I have been working on my family tree since the age of 18. My people do not come from Upper St. Andrew. Yet, I have with NO difficulty obtained birth certificates for many of my forebearers going back to the 1800s INCLUDING those who were from WAY up in the hills of St. Mary and Clarendon in areas where there are no good roads EVEN today. "

Once again, no-one is saying that poor Jamaicans do not have access to GETTING a birth certificate, but surely you appreciate some DO NOT HAVE birth certificates??

Excuse me the exact quote to which I was responding was Geocox's now famous:

Most country Jamaicans don't have official papers, like a birth certificate...

To which I responded:

Really?? I am curious. Where do you get your facts Geocox?

A legitimate question don't you think?

Or can't afford the money to go up to Spanish Town to get it? Or are wary and and unsure of going to get one by themselves??

I lived in Kingston and I knew of AT LEAST 3 people who did not have a copy of their birth certificate, in fact I went with my friend a few years back when she was 25 to get the first copy she had ever had so she could get a passport.

You know 3 people and I gave one example. Does that constitute " MOST COUNTRY PEOPLE" ?

Another statement

"To some of our Jamaican visitors, just because you hang out with some rent a dreads and hookahs when you go to Jamaica, please do NOT be so disrespectful as to carry on like you know more about OUR country than WE do. It is HIGHLY offensive."

Can you not accept that some 'Jamaican visitors' may actually know MORE about Jamaica than you I may do??
Does being born and brought up in Jamaica automatically convey some special knowledge base that non-Jamaicans aren't privvy to???

Some may but the ones who were on here spouting incorrect information and refusing to be corrected certainly don't.

Back on topic, here's a paragraph you wrote.

"So please, don't imply that there are no opportunities for Jamaicans to acquire marketable skills or say that there are is "no help for the poor". That is an insult to every Jamaican individual, family (including mine) and organization that has provided help. Many of our families (including mine) would not be where they are today if they had not received help."

Do you not agree that for SOME Jamaicans there are NO opportunities??

No. Difficult to access maybe but I would not agree with that statement.

Some who don't live near these programs?
Or may not know how to obtain help?
Or don't have the bus fare to go, someone to look after their children, even the shoes on their feet to wear to go??

Agreed. That is true for some. The impression was being conveyed that there were NO opporunities to acquire marketable skills, scholarships, etc. I and other Jamaicans and also some non-Jamaicans have come on and challenged this as is our right.

Maybe you were living in a different part of Jamaica from me, but where I grew up, there were many people who in mine and their eyes had NO way out of poverty.

I have already stated that my folks are NOT from upper St. Andrew. I have relatives who have done well and I have relatives who are poor. I have also stated that I have worked as a social worker in Jamaica so I DO know about poverty in Jamaica. I found it highly offensive for Geocox and SisterNancy to come on here and talk down to me as if I am a fool.

Tropicana, I respect you for your love and dedication towards Jamaica and things Jamaican. However, I find you to be very narrow-minded when discussing issues that you have strong opinions on.
I also feel that you are unwilling to accpet anyone OPINIONS yet have no scruples about dishing out great big servings of your own take.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to dish out great big servings of my own take...the purpose of a discussion board is to discuss...so, everyone else is entitled to serve out great big doses of their own take too.

((BTW. I like your blonde wig. It fit you [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

**MissMention** · 07-23-2003, 06:05 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Originally posted by Tropicana:

Excuse me that is not true. I communicate regularly and amicably with MANY non-Jamaicans on the board. However, when people are going to come on here and state information that is incorrect, inaccurate and just plain debasing, I AND other Jamaicans do have a right to speak up about it without being insulted by statements such as the ones I have just posted in the GD.

I accept that, but I still feel while you may not have any animosity towards non-Jamaicans, that is how it appeared in that post.

Of course not. Statements were made that were inaccurate and when I AND others attempted to correct the statement we received VERY rude responses hence MY statement.

Hmmm...maybe you shouldn't descend to their level?

Here's a comment I find to deliberately exclude non-Jamaicans

"There's more but got to run. Perhaps other Jamaicans can add more info." Oh please, is that the best you can come up with?

Yup!!!
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Excuse me the exact quote to which I was responding was Geocox's now famous:

Most country Jamaicans don't have official papers, like a birth certificate...

To which I responded:

Really?? I am curious. Where do you get your facts Geocox?

A legitimate question don't you think?

Or can't afford the money to go up to Spanish Town to get it? Or are wary and and unsure of going to get one by themselves??

I lived in Kingston and I knew of AT LEAST 3 people who did not have a copy of their birth certificate, in fact I went with my friend a few years back when she was 25 to get the first copy she had ever had so she could get a passport.

You know 3 people and I gave one example. Does that constitute " MOST COUNTRY PEOPLE" ?

No definitely not, but your example seemed to imply that ALMOST ALL Jamaicans ahd their birth certificate.

Another statement

"To some of our Jamaican visitors, just because you hang out with some rent a dreads and hookahs when you go to Jamaica, please do NOT be so disrespectful as to carry on like you know more about OUR country than WE do. It is HIGHLY offensive."

Can you not accept that some 'Jamaican visitors' may actually know MORE about Jamaica than you I may do??
Does being born and brought up in Jamaica automatically convey some special knowledge base that non-Jamaicans aren't privvy to???

Some may but the ones who were on here spouting incorrect information and refusing to be corrected certainly don't.

Then why not address these offenders directly??

Back on topic, here's a paragraph you wrote.

"So please, don't imply that there are no opportunities for Jamaicans to acquire marketable skills or say that there are is "no help for the poor". That is an insult to every Jamaican individual, family (including mine) and organization that has provided help. Many of our families (including mine) would not be where they are today if they had not received help."

Do you not agree that for SOME Jamaicans there are NO opportunities??

No. Difficult to access maybe but I would not agree with that statement.

Some who don't live near these programs?
Or may not know how to obtain help?
Or don't have the bus fare to go, someone to look after their children, even the shoes on their feet to wear to go??

Agreed. That is true for some. The impression was being conveyed that there were NO opporunities to acquire marketable skills, scholarships, etc. I and other Jamaicans and also some non-Jamaicans have come on and challenged this as is our right.

I don't think anyone is implying there are NO opportunites for ANYONE

((BTW. I like your blonde wig. It fit you [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Tenk yu tenk yu ma'am!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

**MissMention** · 07-23-2003, 06:07 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

damn these quote unquote thingys are sooo annoying!!

**chazproductions** · 07-23-2003, 06:11 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

MarieK I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with censorship to any extent. I strongly agree and support freedom of speech even if I WHOLE heartedly disagree with what the person post. If it's demeaning I make a point in showing the other side of the story. There are going to be people who constantly demean/demoralize/degrade Jamaica and Jamaicans, but I think it's my duty as a Jamaica to uplift/educate/moralize Jamaica and Jamaicans. Grant you there are MANY things wrong with the country, just as there are MANY things wrong with every country. It's my job/duty as a Jamaican to shed light on the TRUTH.

So to make a long story short. I think we have different people on this board and if we start to censor in any form some peoples post it would be unfair even if it's disagreed with and not liked...Everyone reacts to disrespect differently...What one finds offensive another many not...So who would decide what is offensive and what isn't?

I think if we disagree/dislike or are offended by someone statement I think we should voice our opinion and let this person know that it's not okay to disrespect people or their country.

Unfortunately there are going to be people who have self hatred and it is unfortunate that they take this out on others...If the post is disrespectful/degrading/dislike it says something about the person who posted it than it does about anyone else.

**Tropicana** · 07-23-2003, 06:13 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Then why not address these offenders directly??

That is my way of NOT attacking. I focus on the statement not the person until it comes to a discussion like this and then yes, names get called. ((Bwoy me can't win))

I don't think anyone is implying there are NO opportunites for ANYONE

Really? I don't want to cut and paste the examples again but go back and look at the examples that have been pasted into this thread by MarieK, me and others. That is EXACTLY the impression that was being conveyed....that Jamaica is such a backward place that the only way people can survive is to "service" tourists in a sexual sense....anyway go and have a look at the early posts in this thread and you will see what I mean.

**MissMention** · 07-23-2003, 06:17 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

Then why not address these offenders directly??

That is my way of NOT attacking. I focus on the statement not the person until it comes to a discussion like this and then yes, names get called. ((Bwoy me can't win)) [/qb]

I have no problem with addressing others directly and calling names, that's the only way you get clarification, ie, if I hid making comments about what I thought of you rather than 'attacking' you directly, I would still think you were a small-minded racist, rather than just having a clash of personalities/opinions with one person.
Better be judged for disliking one person than be misconstrued as being bigoted...

**SisterNancy** · 07-23-2003, 06:29 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

You know, I really don't want to keep responding here. However, I each time I read the board, I see that my posting and/or my 'moral character' continue to be the topic of discussion amongst some. It is hard not to respond, as I feel I am being a fool by not doing so. I'm not one to stand by and be publicly degraded over and over and keep my mouth shut about it.

I wrote about the experience I had with the man I was in a relationship with. I said 'man', because he is a man with emotions, feelings, wants, needs...like any other human being...regardless of what you may think of him or others who semi-survive as he did. He is not merely a faceless hustler as some have insisted. I MUST STATE THAT THIS WAS ONLY ONE LITTLE SMIDGEON OF MY 20+ YEAR CONNECTION WITH JAMAICANS IN JAMAICA, AS WELL AS WITH JAMAICANS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES. That my character has been reduced (by some) to that of a sleazy, greedy, sex-starved, desperate, ignorant tourist is incorrect. This is not what I am about. My year-long relationship with this man does not cancel out the rest of my life, make it that this is all I am about; nor does it disqualify me as a human being who has intellect, respect and also the same rights as everyone else to post here and not be subjected to consistent attempts to demoralize me.

I hope that anyone new reading here does not walk away with the impression that Jamaicans are awful people (based on the harshness of the posts of SOME)....as I believe that one of the reasons for the board in the first place is to help foreigners gain exposure to Jamaican people. Contrary, Jamaicans are some of the most warm, loving individuals on the planet.

Note to editor, and to all that continue to chastize: There is not one word in my above post that attacks anyone. Now, if anyone chooses to quote and try to pull apart what I've written, at least no one can say that I 'attacked' them.

**Tropicana** · 07-23-2003, 06:30 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

I have no problem with addressing others directly and calling names, that's the only way you get clarification, ie, if I hid making comments about what I thought of you rather than 'attacking' you directly, I would still think you were a small-minded racist, rather than just having a clash of personalities/opinions with one person.

Better be judged for disliking one person than be misconstrued as being bigoted...

So, once again, just who is doing the attacking here??

MissMention, we can try again another day but for today, our conversation is over.

**JamBrit** · 07-23-2003, 06:30 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

I don't really like to get in the middle of disagreements, etc....not my style...however, MissMention, in Tropicana's defense, I have to say she was being most civilized/polite in her response to SisterNancy's initial Rentadread story. I think the animosity started with geocox claiming [towards Tropicana] "This just went right over your head, It's not about you and your morals...... ". IMHO, that was totally uncalled for.

**chazproductions** · 07-23-2003, 06:37 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

SisterNancy I have no idea about your post because I haven't read it...My comments are directed towards censorship which I'm against. By the way, what post are you refering to?

Mi si some ah di post...Well then its says more about you than it does about Jamaicans.

**evanovitch** · 07-23-2003, 06:37 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

i have come to di conclusion and i am unanimous in it, that i have kept intact my standards from jamaica...back home, dem would not be mi contemporary and here deh r not...it have nutting to do wid colour, same or diffrant....mi no tolerate slackness, even unda di guise of free speech....mi deh pon dis board fi chat to yaadie or people who reflect my interests....if u insult me country, people, language, music,moral upbringing etc den mi a go tek issue....mi caan mek allowances fi u lack of broughtopsi, diffrant moral standard etc....mi go by di one whe mi learn a mi madda knee and while mi wi 'low a yaadie fi mek joke or figet him granny home training due to illadvised influences, him is di ongle one mi wi low in di context of a gathering of my bredren...him know betta an jus a lapse...

dat is my view and i am unanimous in dem...jack mandoora, mi no choose none [

I]sista d dahling mi a look a good domino program fi mi laptop...everytime mi buy one is some foolfool domino playing an di yaadie in me too dam lazy fi read di instructions[/i]

**Tropicana** · 07-23-2003, 06:41 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Evanovitch:

I agree re: the slackness. Nuff of we noh like it and we have a right to express that.

Re: Dominoes, try one of the Hoyle CDs with games. One of them has dominoes, it's pretty good and you even get to play with simulated characters that move and talk.

**SisterNancy** · 07-23-2003, 06:44 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Perhaps it is time to close THIS thread...as it has absolutely no redeeming qualities anymore. A big waste of time.

**MarieK** · 07-23-2003, 06:50 PM

Re: Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

Originally posted by SisterNancy:
[qb] Perhaps it is time to close THIS thread...as it has absolutely no redeeming qualities anymore. A big waste of time. [/qb]

Did it ever occur to you that this post serves the purpose of informing people that contrary to what many foreigners are saying we are an educated nation with morals.

It is the ones implying that Jamaicans are identically challenged uneducated bigamists who don't yet know what words like Yankee means that needs to be locked down.

this is an insult

once and for all this thread is not about you and your morals we dont' really care what you do and who or hwo many times you do it, we do however, take offense to the above mentioned disrespect of our culture by suggesting that we are a little bit higher than neanderthals.

Since when did this post turn into an issue of you an your morals or lack thereof

Don't respond if you don't feel like it and if we mash yuh cawn sarry but it wouldn't mash if yuh neva put yuh foot inna di way.

Soooo I knwo we have freedom of speech to an extent here

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