The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Give me a source for this. [/qb]

A source? The source is the scripture itself. Let's look at some of the translations that are out there keeping in mind that the Dead Sea Scrolls (the older scriptures from 200 years BEFORE Christ) uses the phrase "sons of God" (bene elohim). Keep in mind that the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text are the only existing representation of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls predates the Masoretic text by over 1,000 years.

Deuteronomy 32:7-9 or 8-9:

"Remember the days of old, consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. When the Most High divided the nations, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God." (Septuagint version BEFORE Christ basing its translation on the older Dead Sea scrolls)

"Think back on the days of old, reflect on the years of age upon age. Ask your father and he will inform you, ask your elders and they will tell you: When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God;
While the LORD'S own portion was Jacob, His hereditary share was Israel." (New American Bible)

"Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance." (King James Version of @1500s A.D based on the Masoretic text of about 900 A.D)


"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.

For the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage." (Revised Standard Version)

-----------------------------------------------

What do you gather from looking at these translations and their faithfulness to the older Dead Sea Scrolls?

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

To bolster the idea that the nations were divided amongst the sons of God and that Yahweh was probably one of the said sons, take a look at Judges 11:19-24:

"Then Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon, and said to him, 'Let us pass through your country to our own place.' Sihon, however, did not trust Israel to pass through his territory. He mustered all his men and encamped at Jahaz and fought with Israel. Then the LORD , the God of Israel, gave Sihon and all his men into Israel's hands, and they defeated them. Israel took over all the land of the Amorites who lived in that country, capturing all of it from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the desert to the Jordan. "Now since the LORD , the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess.

Here the messengers from Israel express themselves in a way that apparently has them acknowledging other gods that ruled over other nations but their nation, Israel, was the domain and possession of Yahweh (the Lord). This was the early belief of Israel which would change over time and this evolution would be reflected in their scriptures as well.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

So could it be that the God of the Hebrews was just one of the gods, one of the sons of the Most High. Perish the thought I'm sure some would say. That's blasphemy and hersey!

I have already presented from the scriptures themselves that it could indeed possibly be the case. Israel's God was initially just that - Israel's God. It does not appear his own people recognized Him as being the only god in their early history. He was just their God and because he was a jealous God, He wanted them to have nothing to do with the other gods of the other nations and there seems to be good reason why.

The gods of the other nations were failures. They encouraged gross things including child sacrifices and perversions. The God of Israel loathed such things and laid down harsh consequences for such actions. The gods of the other nations defended the unjust, showed partiality to the wicked, did not defend the weak and needy, etc (Psalm 82). Israel's God stood up in the council of the gods (Psalm 82:1)and blasted the other gods. At this point in Israel's history, He was viewed as taking precedence over the other gods whom he addresses as such ("I said, 'You are gods"; you are all sons of the Most High...'). After resigning them (the other gods) to die like mortals, the Psalmist then lets his listeners understand that upon the overthrow of the other gods, ALL nations were now the property of Israel's God to rule and judge righteously over. The other gods were nothing and not worthy of any worship.

Later writers like Jeremiah and the second Isaiah were instrumental in elevating Israel's God from amongst the ranks of gods to being the God of all gods to eventually being the ONLY God. This was the theological worldview momentum going into captivity and was galvanized in captivity especially with the influence of Persian Zoroastrianism and its zealous monotheism. Once upon a time in their theology, a nation was only as strong as its god, but it became quite evident that Israel's God would have to be ranked as being very weak if his people's necks were under the feet of Babylon and their gods. The way to get around this seeming defeat was simply to recognize that Israel's lot was due to their sins and not because their God was weak. In fact, it was He who allowed them to be conquered to teach them a lesson. After all, he was seen as being the one who commissioned the Babylonians to march on Jerusalem and raze it to the ground. He controlled and choreographed the whole thing. It was not because Babylon had gods stronger than he. In fact, Babaylon had NO real gods so in the face of defeat, the Jews scoffed at the non existent gods of Babylon. It was their God who was in control and it was his anger at their sins that drove them into captivity.

Israel's God appeared to have taken another path with his people as opposed to the other gods of the nations and their people. He rescued them and lifted them from under the hand of slavery. He called them to be his own. He taught them hygiene, cleanliness, rituals, morals, gave them laws to live by and hammered out a unique identity for them to separate them from all other people. he refused any vainglory of images representing him. In am impassioned plea to Israel when she had gone astray, he recounted how he took them in when no one else wanted them (Ezekiel 16).

In conclusion it appears Israel's God evolved from a war god of the deserts who rose to prominence in the council of the gods up to a point where he vanquishes all other gods to assume a role of supremacy in later Jewish theology which in turn was assumed by Christianity.

[servant]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

K-K, I understand and apprectiate that "to go back and sift through each note and/or page of various books would be arduous" for twenty questions. But would you mind just addressing one, just one, small matter that arose in the first page of this thread ?

You said, and I quote "The Elohim were very worried that their leaders, who considered what they had created to be an abomination, would order all E- hums destroyed. They had no choice but to obey, and to send one of their creations to the great vessel now orbiting the Earth."

Could you pleae tell us, K-K, I beg you, what is this "great vessel now orbiting the Earth" ?

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] K-K, I understand and apprectiate that "to go back and sift through each note and/or page of various books would be arduous" for twenty questions. But would you mind just addressing one, just one, small matter that arose in the first page of this thread ?

You said, and I quote "The Elohim were very worried that their leaders, who considered what they had created to be an abomination, would order all E- hums destroyed. They had no choice but to obey, and to send one of their creations to the great vessel now orbiting the Earth."

Could you pleae tell us, K-K, I beg you, what is this "great vessel now orbiting the Earth" ? [/qb]

I completely missed that one and I'm certainly curious myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I'm thinking 'now' meant back then but I could be wrong.

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] K-K, I understand and apprectiate that "to go back and sift through each note and/or page of various books would be arduous" for twenty questions. But would you mind just addressing one, just one, small matter that arose in the first page of this thread ?

You said, and I quote "The Elohim were very worried that their leaders, who considered what they had created to be an abomination, would order all E- hums destroyed. They had no choice but to obey, and to send one of their creations to the great vessel now orbiting the Earth."

Could you pleae tell us, K-K, I beg you, what is this "great vessel now orbiting the Earth" ? [/qb]

Greetings Servant,

Answering this question is sure to cause the subject to diverge, however, here goes.

The Sumerians were known to have drawn an illustartion of the Solar System years ago, without the use of telescopes and technology as we have today. It was as if "someone" (maybe the Elohim) were describing what was out in the Great Beyond and one or more of the Sumerians were compelled to draw what was being said. The interesting part of this is, the illustration (from back then) is very similar to present illustartions that represent the Solar System today. However, one difference from then to now is, the Sumerian illustartion had an additional planet, unlike the illustrations of today. This planet to some astronomers is known as Planet X or Nibiru. This is the Great Vessel. Both past and present scientist have confirmed a very large, yet, undescribable body mass in the galaxy that has and is effecting the Earth. I have provided a link to begin your research my friend. I would not want to fall in contempt of trying to convince you if my ill-induced reasoning.

http://xfacts.com/x2.htm

[jaith]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[servant]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

K-K, you are right, this will cause the subject to diverge so I have started another thread. Thanks.

[accepted77]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] To bolster the idea that the nations were divided amongst the sons of God and that Yahweh was probably one of the said sons, take a look at Judges 11:19-24:

"Then Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon, and said to him, 'Let us pass through your country to our own place.' Sihon, however, did not trust Israel to pass through his territory. He mustered all his men and encamped at Jahaz and fought with Israel. Then the LORD , the God of Israel, gave Sihon and all his men into Israel's hands, and they defeated them. Israel took over all the land of the Amorites who lived in that country, capturing all of it from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the desert to the Jordan. "Now since the LORD , the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess.

Here the messengers from Israel express themselves in a way that apparently has them acknowledging other gods that ruled over other nations but their nation, Israel, was the domain and possession of Yahweh (the Lord). This was the early belief of Israel which would change over time and this evolution would be reflected in their scriptures as well. [/qb]

Mutty,
I have been quite busy this week, peeked in here but didn,t have time to post.

In reading Mr Heister's paper one position he clearly outlines is that God did not appropiate a nation for himself, instead he seeked out a man to create this nation. So if we assume as he did that there were 70 "sons of Elohim" the seventy nations were as you surmise all given over to the seventy.

Therefore God did not include himself among the "sons". The very next chapter describes the call of Abraham. God promise to make him the father of many nations is interesting, we know that after Sarah died Abraham took another wife Keturah and had sons each of which became a nation.

So not all nations were given over to the sons of elohim, God started a promise to Abraham which would one day spread to all families in the world. Its not scriptural to say that the notion of being God to the whole world was developed later in the second and third Isiah or the second Jermiah.

Paul recounts for us in Galatians that to Abraham and his seed were the promises made and he (God) said seed not as many but as one and to thy seed the christ.

Jesus was to declare himself as "the promise of the Father" and the "light to lighten the Gentiles", not only quoting Isiah but going way back to the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis.

We are through Christ "children of the promise", bypassing the special relationship God had with the Jews and going back to the original promise, "a people of many tongues and nations".

What's significant is that God allowed all these atrocies to run their course, he forbid Abraham from going into Caanan and staying at Beersheba bacause the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites had not yet come in.

God was more than patient to these nations and their 'gods' but should iniquity abound he stepped in and destroyed the people as he did Sodom and Gommorrow where ten faithful could not be found.

Was not the plains of Shinar were given up to other "sons of Elohim".

The nation Isreal was an exapmle for the other "given up" nations nothing more. When the cries of sin became too intolerant God stepped in and declared judgement on the principality wherever it was. He is king of Kings and Lord of Lords.
But as to another God he knows no other.

I thought you were going to provide a source to the claim that YHWH is not the Most High?

I suspect this is using up too much bandwith if you feel a need to continue this discourse a part two may be necessary.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Accepted, thank you for the reply but one part of your reply stands out:

"Its not scriptural to say that the notion of being God to the whole world was developed later in the second and third Isiah or the second Jermiah."

Of course it is not. One would not expect the Bible to come out and declare this, however, during the 1,000 plus years God deal with Israel/Judah from Moses to Isaiah, can you recall the God of Israel being referred to more than just Israel's God? Outside some of the Psalms which were written AFTER the time of Isaiah, are we ever given the idea that the God of Israel is the God of all creation or are we simply given the idea that Israel's God was the greatest and best God amongst the gods as one would expect a biased Israelite to say? Honestly, I may have missed this concept amongst the Hebrews.

What I have come to see in reality, is that the later books of the Old Testament (post Babylon) present Israel's God as the one and only true God and from there, that concept is assumed into the earlier books.

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by accepted:
I suspect this is using up too much bandwith if you feel a need to continue this discourse a part two may be necessary.

Point noted and I have been mulling over this for a couple of days now. I know there is a lot of quoting of posts that is happening, but a Part II is definitely in order.

I will leave this thread open for you to reply to Mutty's last comments, but would ask that Mutty start a Part II with his follow-up. Thanks, guys.

I am hard pressed for time with mid term papers and all, but I have been following this discussion somewhat and do have great appreciation for the dialogue, and the wealth of information shared.

[accepted77]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Accepted, thank you for the reply
Of course it is not. One would not expect the Bible to come out and declare this, however, during the 1,000 plus years God deal with Israel/Judah from Moses to Isaiah, can you recall the God of Israel being referred to more than just Israel's God? Outside some of the Psalms which were written AFTER the time of Isaiah, are we ever given the idea that the God of Israel is the God of all creation or are we simply given the idea that Israel's God was the greatest and best God amongst the gods as one would expect a biased Israelite to say? Honestly, I may have missed this concept amongst the Hebrews.


What I have come to see in reality, is that the later books of the Old Testament (post Babylon) present Israel's God as the one and only true God and from there, that concept is assumed into the earlier books. [/qb]

Mutty,

O.k lets go to the book of Job. Here's one of the poetic song books of the Bible that records stories from antiquity, the authour is unknown but the identity of Job's three friends lend some evidence to the period in which Job lived.

Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

You well know the Hebrew word for Lord here is YHWH the same used throughout the old testament for Isreal's God.

So we are speaking of a Hebrew God in Job.

Now lets do some detective work. Eliphaz (note the El in his name) is from Temanite. So where is Temanite.

Gen 36:11 And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz.

Wait one minute it was Temanite when the story was written but obviously the another name predated Teman for Eliphaz was Teman's father???

(2.) A place in Southern Idumea, the land of "the sons of the east," frequently mentioned in the Old Testament. It was noted for the wisdom of its inhabitants (Amos 1:12; Obad. 1:8; Jer.49:7; Ezek. 25:13). It was divided from the hills of Paran by the low plain of Arabah (Hab. 3:3).

The Edomites were Semites, closely related in blood and in language to the Israelites. They dispossessed the Horites of Mount Seir; though it is clear, from Gen. 36, that they afterwards intermarried with the conquered population. Edomite tribes settled also in the south of Judah, like the Kenizzites (Gen. 36:11), to whom Caleb and Othniel belonged (Josh. 15:17).
The southern part of Edom was known as Teman.

Horites
cave-men, a race of Troglodytes who dwelt in the limestone caves which abounded in Edom. Their ancestor was "Seir," who probably gave his name to the district where he lived. They were a branch of the Hivites (Gen. 14:6; 36:20-30; 1 Chr. 1:38, 39). They were dispossessed by the descendants of Esau, and as a people gradually became extinct (Deut. 2:12-22

So the Horites, "cave men" became the Hivites, then the Edonomites and later the region was named by Esau's sons as The Temanite. An ancient land of many names.

Now to Bildad the Shuhite.
Gen 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
Gen 25:2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Again Shuhite is the name at the writing of this story but the land predates Abraham who dwelt in Beersheba so again we have no clear time frame of the period Job lived.

And finally Zophar the Naamathite

Gen 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

Finally some light. We know the time of Tubalcain, definitely preflood, the same time of the Horites, the same timeframe of Naamah.

So we have a time frame from Cain's granddaughter - Naamah - to Abraham's son -Shuah. A period spanning the old world to the post flood era.

So we have two preflood and one post flood origin of the friends of Job.

But Lets look at Job. He offers sacrifices to God like Abel, sheep only, no bullocks, or fowl like Abram.

He prays to one God, and both he and his friends Know of constellations, Plenias and some really astounding facts come from this book of antiquity.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the [b]sons of Godbene elohim came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.[/i]
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Notice that this hebrew God is conversing with the bene elohim (Mutty your god's [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) and claiming Job as one faithful.

But in the whole earth??
I thought he was only the God of the Hebrews?

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Further notice God gives power to Satan to spoil all that he has.

One bene elohim giving power to another bene elohim? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Thought they were all equal?????

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Job 12:12 With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

Note these claims are by men about all men.

Job 12:23 He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.
Job 12:24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way.

This is no parochial diety this God Rules ALL.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

So here's Job freind defining gravity eons before Sir Isaac Newton.

Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
ob 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

So much for that spaceman theory, these ancient men knew who made them and their knew astronomy too.

Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

Now before any ideas of Job lifespan at 140 years goes around he lived 140 years after Satan tried his best to make him curse God and live add this to the years before and we see Job was up there with the preflood patriarchs.

This one predates any Hebrew God, this is a record out of the old world.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Accepted, even if one believes the book of Job was written before the Jewish exile or after, the book is NOT a Jewish book and the events appear to have occured before Israel was a nation. This book would reflect the Great God of all creation, the Most High, and not the local tribal God of Israel, Yahweh.

[accepted77]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Mutty,

We can go on and on with this.
Like I said it all a matter of faith.
Thanks for the time to share.
And for playing devil's advocate to make it a balanced discourse.

God Bless.

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Mutty,

We can go on and on with this.
Like I said it all a matter of faith.
Thanks for the time to share.
And for playing devil's advocate to make it a balanced discourse.

God Bless. [/qb]

I echo these sentiments and am closing this one down as I think it has run its course. Thanks for the discussion guys.