Should Patois be the official ja language?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

To all you intellectuals thatare using your skills to develope this branch of the science of lliguistics. It would be more menefitial if we start directing it a the sciencew of survival and growth.
The stage of existence that Jamaica is at present requires food security . Jamaica spends too high apercentage on food imports,without off seting it with comparable food exports.
Let us apply our skills to aquiring a national irrigation scheme,so that 3 months after every flood,we don;t have farmers complaining of drought.
...and don't talk about the terrain. I know that it is hilly,but anybody that is capable of dealing with such a concept as creating phonetic representation for a language that will not survive if the population is forced to migrate to someplace else, sould be be able to come up with a techno9logically sound plan to irrigate every inch of Jjamaica so that we in the future will be able to afford to make as many versions od patwa official.
...but until we solve the immidiate problems of the country,we shoould not be looking for problems to be solved.

[djlondon]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Draino I agree completely with what you have said and am also greatly interested in your phonetic alphabet. How did you develop this? are you a linguist? I do agree with you that the way in which most people on the post write Patois does in fact seem liked English spelt 'badly' and does not seem like a unique langauge in itself. The problem is, is that English is not a phonetic language ie is not spelt how it is written and thus adopting a spelling system based on standard English is not actually appropriate for Patois as Patois is in fact a phonetic langauge and thus should be written as such. Also the alphabet proposed by you also means that the language does not resemble English in anyway shape or form at all and thus could not be seen as an inferior form of it but a unique language derived from English, Spanish, and West African languages. How do you intend to spread your proposed alphabet?

[quodlibet]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Ennybaddy can gi mi wan example fi show ow bad Patwa goh? Cauzn if we hab Hinglish, dats ow wi know seh sitten name bad Hinglish. So ef wi gwine chat bout Patwa, wi haffi chat bout bad Patwa tu...

Oh, wan nedda ting. If wi dweet, wha 'appen if di Trini dem decide fi do di same ting? Mi cyaa falla dem wen dem chat fas inna di firs ting, much less fi read wha dem a seh same way... So wi fi hab a Caribbean Patwa tu? - memba seh wi hab a University a di Wes Indies...

--------------------------------------------

Can anyone give me an example of bad Patois? My reason for asking, is that we have it as given that we have English, and therefore "bad" English. It then follows that if we have Patois, we need to establish what is "bad" Patois...

Oh, and one more thing... If we choose to go along this path, what if the Trinidadians decide to do the same? I can barely follow when they speak rapidly now, much less to transcribe that to something in writing! So, following that thread, should we have a Caribbean Patois as well? Remember, things like this will ultimately affect our University of the West Indies...


(just my $0.02)

[Mahkka]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

I am just beginning to understand Dr. Dudd’s contention...it's really about priority and how we decide to expend resources, given the myriad problems facing our beloved nation.

From the day I knew myself up to today the problems facing ja (economic, social, educational, etc,) have been the same and have not gotten any better, independence notwithstanding.

It should be obvious by now that the our problems will not be answer solely by GOVERNMENT. Lord knows, we have relied on both administrations for generations with only marginal, if any headway.

Perhaps what we need now is a bottom–up rather than a top-down approach. Maybe it’s time for empowerment of the “common man”. Maybe it’s time to imbue the “people” with pride and motivation… motivation to throw off the cloak of apathy and begin to take responsibility to change our existence. This is opposed to sitting back and waiting for GOVERNMENT to take care of us.

We are in need of a renaissance--spiritual, intellectual and artistic. And for this to take place we have to cultivate individualism and pride and tap into the creativity of all our citizens. For this to be effective all of our people must be allowed to "legitimately" participate. Why not instill them with pride and allow them to have a voice for expressing their creativity.

Why not give it a try? What is it that we have to loose? We have tried damn near everything else!!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

This is what i have been saying in al my missives. Let us start using our talents to move the country to the point where we can seriusly contemplate these and other intellectual exercise,but first we have to at least be able to comfortably feed the popualation.
The percentage of the GDP that agriculture produce is 7% although a;most 20% of the population makes a livelihood from it.
With adequate irrigation,which afford the banks to lend against agriculture,because the investment is not relying on the vagries of the weather.That would increase the productivity of the farmers to least 10 folds.
If the farming sector grows, because it is at the bottom. it will generate growth of about 50% of its increase through the whole economy.

that is the only tide in the economy that is capable of raising al boats. It will supply the tourism market. It will will reduce the dependenceor offset the need for food imports,and make the local currency more stable.
It will increase the tax base,so that the country will be able to afford the level of social good that is demanded by the citizenry.
Those are just some of the benefits,but as you stated, we can't wait on the government,because the members of government are only capable of doing as much as their consultants conjures up,and they don't seem to be able to see that far.
They haven't done it before,why sould we expect them to do now?

[draino]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Originally posted by djlondon:
Draino I agree completely with what you have said and am also greatly interested in your phonetic alphabet. {thank you} How did you develop this? {reading up linguistics resources by myself. paying attention to how we actually pronounce words. it's my hobby -- listening to how various jamaicans from different walks of life speak}. are you a linguist? {not by a long shot.}I do agree with you that the way in which most people on the post write Patois does in fact seem liked English spelt 'badly' and does not seem like a unique langauge in itself. {exactly} The problem is, is that English is not a phonetic language ie is not spelt how it is written and thus adopting a spelling system based on standard English is not actually appropriate for Patois as Patois is in fact a phonetic langauge and thus should be written as such. Also the alphabet proposed by you also means that the language does not resemble English in anyway shape or form {which was one of my objectives [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] } at all and thus could not be seen as an inferior form {very insightful sir} of it but a unique language derived from English, Spanish, and West African languages. How do you intend to spread your proposed alphabet? {through users like you}

we do not need the state to popularise the writing system. if people come to agree on a single form of writing patois then the problem is solved. the internet is a wonderful medium for this. i am currently trying to train a few of my friends how to write using the system and i plan to arrange group sessions on MSN messenger to teach people.

1. writing system comes first.

2. bad patois/good patois? too early for that. what we need to do is popularise a writing system (requiring absolutely no government money dudd). when we have a popular system, people will write patois as they speak patois. there will be inconsistencies but over time it will stabilise and we'll see a more consistent form emerging.

in the process, i am sure that many will try to publish grammar books. i plan to produce a serious study of the language with grammar rules, phrases, and a *real* dictionary as my own private initiative (no government money dudd). i believe there are a lot of nonsense patois books out there and i don't like to see the unprofessionalism in them. if we're not going to take our language seriously then we shouldn't bother at all.

i'll p.m you my email

[draino]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

i imagine the next step would be to create a webpage of some kind for jamaicans to contribute grammar rules, words, expressions, idiomatic expressions to a patois dictionary (all to be screened of course) and the results would be compiled and released on a timely basis and available in real-time look-up on the page of course. why oh why didn't i take perl programming seriously? well, i still have the book. it won't hurt me to go through it.

[draino]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

you could also encourage high school clubs through whatever incentives to disseminate the info. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[sistactry]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

hell no patwa shouldnt be the official language of Jamaica...., [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

unu ever call AirJamaica and hear how sweet dem sound...... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

good hawfternoon, bla bla bla....air Jamaica, how may we help you.., larks dem sound so booonoonoooonus.., [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Hey draino,Whatever suits your fancy!!
Good luck. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Q3210]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Draino, sure has put in work on patois in his innovative written form. Somewhere, I detect an over riding emotional force that we in this instance are zeroing on things Jamaican. Patois Jamaican is what we have grown to use as a unique expression. Some of us therefore are deeply moved by it. That`s where emotion gets the better of us. Since we didn`t create the wheel nor the lever it seems we have emotionally forgotten the technology that has since derived where, industry has evolved in many forms, such as shipping, Aeronautics, medicine and economics etc.
But alas! We created patois so there is where we are zeroing on.
So while the world advances and medicines are made with accompanied leaflets written in English, French, German, Spanish and with Draino at the helm, Jamaican Patois, we find so amazing what we have achieved these past 400 years, a dialect that we call a language, all because we don`t wish to lose our emotional past.
Patois will never be destroyed, it is a part of us Jamaicans, an expression, but not a language, not a scientific work of art. At least not yet.
Maybe in the next 500 years when Jamaica leads the way in science and technology, where orders from over the globe and Mars come in for the bridges, the aeroplanes, the efficient economics that we create. And since is patwa wi chat, is patwa we gwine haffi write with all the instructions accompanying all de great sinting we mek.
Yeah man, everyting cris.

[Zeko]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

My 2 cents: NO!!! Patois is a dialect of the English Language...(And God knows how many other different languages)

Dialect

A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.

A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Originally posted by draino:

i imagine the next step would be to create a webpage of some kind for jamaicans to contribute grammar rules, words, expressions, idiomatic expressions to a patois dictionary (all to be screened of course) and the results would be compiled and released on a timely basis and available in real-time look-up on the page of course. why oh why didn't i take perl programming seriously? well, i still have the book. it won't hurt me to go through it.

To my old eyes you have obviously spent quite a bit of time thinking and writing about Jamaican patois. I think a website would be a great idea. Perhaps you might write some essays about writing Jamaican patois and send them to the Observor and Gleaner (they are both ALWAYS in need of interesting and well written articles!). I think that your translations of poems and songs make great reading.

Who cares if patois is "declared" a national language? It's surely not going anywhere.

Communications are soo fast now, and there certainly is a fascination by many people with Jamaican patois, that I can see your idea of a website catching on... big time!

Singlish

_

[JJrasta89]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

ZEKO THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!! :verymad:
I THINK SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED A DIALECT OF ENGLISH!!!!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] IT HAS ROOTS FROM ENGLISH YES BUT ALSO SPANISH, WEST AFRICAN AND MANY MORE!cOCKNEY IS A DIFFERENT CASE ITS A DIALECT OF ENGLISH BECAUSE ITS BASICALLY ALL ENGLISH. IT HAS NO ROOTS FROM ANY OTHER LANGUAGE!!EVEN THOUGH I DONT THINK PATOIS SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, I STILL THINK IT SHOULD BE A LANGUAGE!!!!!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN, IF U GO UP TO ANY NON-JAMAICAN/ NON-PATOIS SPEAKING PERSON AND SPEAK PATOIS TO THEM THEY WONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL UR SAYING!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] DONT EVEN BOTHER ASKING THEM TO READ IT!!!!!!!
ALSO IF U LOOK ON ANY REALLY NEW ALMANACS OR ONLINE ALMANACS (OR ATLAS) AND U LOOK AT THE SECTION WITH THE COUNTRIES LANGUAGES U SEE THAT AT THE JAMAICAN PART IT SAYS "ENGLISH, JAMAICAN CREOLE" SOME DONT EVEN SAY WHICH ONE IS OFFICIAL!!!
BUT I'M SUPRISED AT THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK IT SHOULDNT BE A LANGUAGE IT PROVES U DONT USE THIS SITE, BECAUSE IF YOU DID YOU'LL SEE THAT KARL FOLKS HAS 15 REASONS WHY IT SHOULD BE AS WELL AS A LONG ESSAY(OF SORTS) EXPLAINING ITS ORIGINS (AS WELL AS MORE REASONS WHY ITS A LANGUAGE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
ITS A LANGUAGE!!!!!! AND ITS STARTING TO BE RECOGNIZED AS ONE SO GET USED TO IT!!!!!
BESIDES WOULDNT IT BE COOL TO BE CONSIDERD BI-LINGUAL OR MORE?????

[Q3210]

Re: Should Patois be the official ja language?

Ok, please do your dissertation in Patois.
Do your survey in patois. Do your medical report in patois.
Write your book in patois.
Patois is not definite. There is sometimes no defined difference in expression of singular as against plural.
Patois is not standard.