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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Lawd, dis chread makes me embarrassed...Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Is that question directed at me? I ask because I don't want to guilty of assumptions...
Still, I'll tell you why I am embarrassed. I have seen threads locked down around here on some kind of preemptive measure. For a while it put a real strangle hold on any kind of fruitful/lively discussions.
Now it seems the MO around here has veered in the opposite direction. The sometimes barely concealed hostility that continues to be directed toward black people embarrasses me... 'our' need to respond in kind does not lessen my discomfiture...
I can't write all that I'd like to say, cause I am quite busy today, but I will note that this post is not a call for the thread to be closed... it's just my own sad commentary...Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
The question was rhetorical, but thank you for responding.Originally posted by Nunya:
[qb]The sometimes barely concealed hostility that continues to be directed toward black people embarrasses me... 'our' need to respond in kind does not lessen my discomfiture......[/qb]
I agree with both parts of your comments, but am growing weary of lonrwolf's cheap shots and bad faith; his earlier comments which were equally heinous and false have been erased from the thread yet he is allowed to continue posting in the same vein. Up until now, I have responded politely but as his remarks have become increasingly worthy of white extremists, my reactions have indeed become more forceful.
I have drawn the administrator's attention to this thread and others in Intl. News. So far there has been no response and no action (besides the aforementioned posts being deleted).Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
I'm not sure that had the acres and mule been paid then that we would not be having this discussion now. Would that have stopped all the racism, the Jim Crow laws, the lynchings and economic barriers to black advancement that have occurred since then?Originally posted by barosa:
[qb]Originally posted by BlackStar:
Another article about the stolen loot.Ohliz, the answer you gave to your question above is: "I can't possibly see how it could be, help me get past that" I will but in to help you. Do you remember the idea or the promise of 40 acres and a mule to the slaves after SLAVERY? It must have been intended for each family unit. The point I am making is, that would have solved the reparation problem after the Civil War and done away with. None of us would be here now discussing how impossible it's gonna be to make the neccessary reparation.What bothers me about this is, once the reparation has been agreed to and paid, that's it. The US government doesn't owe the Hungarian Jews anything else. The "debt" is paid, the apology accepted, it's done.
Is this appropriate in the case of black American descendants of slaves?
I can't possibly see how it could be, help me get past that?
I would say, the longer the procrastination, the more difficult the problem will be in the future, because it will never really go away. The wealth of America is so vast that even a token measure in some form (not neccessarily cash) could be earmarked for such an endeavour. But the billions are better spent on WARS and SPACE Exploration if you get my drift. I can't see the US building enough prisons to house their suffering black population who were denied restitution after slavery and who encountered restrictive laws to make sure they were kept DOWN. So if you wrap your head around the many ways it could be done, it wouldn't amount to rocket Science and they would get the "monkey off their back", so to speak. But MONEY, even where justified would cause another "Civil War"
There are many in the US that would rather die in denying JUSTICE in the form of reparation to those who were forced to give their blood sweat and tears so they could enjoy riches and priviledges. It's funny, but somehow I get the feeling that the fruits of SLAVERY for America will forever be bitter sweet in digesting.
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In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell [/qb]
I can't see how.
Would you, if you were a descendant of American slaves, be OK with some form of payment like the Hungarian Jews got? Would that even things up? Or do you see it as a first step only?
I think many misunderstand my position here. I am not against reparations.
I think they are not enough, and I think that if they are accepted, then that's all the powers that be need in order to say, forever "well we paid them, why do they still want us to change our laws or have affirmative action or [insert social program here]".Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
The thing is not only did the freed slaves *not* get the land grant, but they also got the segregationist laws, racism, etc.Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb]I'm not sure that had the acres and mule been paid then that we would not be having this discussion now. Would that have stopped all the racism, the Jim Crow laws, the lynchings and economic barriers to black advancement that have occurred since then?[/qb]Civil rights are being called into question regardless. So far the referendums (referenda?) and Supreme Court cases have maintained these programs to a certain extent, but they are being chipped away...and still no reparations in sight.Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb]I think they are not enough, and I think that if they are accepted, then that's all the powers that be need in order to say, forever "well we paid them, why do they still want us to change our laws or have affirmative action or [insert social program here]". [/qb]
Ohliz, what do you think about the commission on the Tulsa riots of 1921 and their findings?Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Odd you mention Tulsa because I re-read up on it after Hurricane Katrina because someone on another board basically siad "it's always black people that riot and loot".
I was able to easily find a very large number of white rioting incidents, including some very recent ones, like a large riot at the Olympics in Salt Lake City over BEER SALES BEING STOPPED EARLY!!
I think reparations should be paid. I think in this case making reparations should be easy for a court to agree to because there is a very specific and relatively recent incident with very specific victims and very specific economic loss.
See this "guide" to winning reparations from the Rosewood folks:
http://www.directblackaction.com/roserep.htmTHE KEY COMPONENTS OF SUCCESS - PRAY
Now let me discuss what I believe that there were four key components that allowed us to pass the Rosewood Bill. We had to P-R-A-Y . . . PRAY!
P stands for Political Reality. You have to acknowledge the political realities. We had the right people in the right positions that afforded a politically realistic scenario to pass this bill. We had the influence of the largest law firm in Florida, Holland and Knight, providing every resource necessary to help pass the bill. We had an appointed academic research team and Special Master, both of which reflected the moderate views of the legislature. And finally, we had a democratic led legislature and governor that had sufficient numbers of moderate republicans who would vote for the bill. The timing and scenario were absolutely perfect.
R stands for Right the Wrong. In any effort to gain compensation for reparations there must exist a moral obligation to right the wrong. And you must have the ability to convey persistently and passionately to a diverse group of potential supporters a need to right the wrong. Our core team believed in our mission and effectively persuaded others to support our goals.
A stands for Aim. In our case, we had only one shot, so we knew we had to aim for the right target. Therefore, we saw a need to narrow the scope of the Rosewood Bill. We had to distinguish this segment of history from every other hate crime that had occurred in the history of Florida. As we all know our state and national histories are replete with examples of race based crimes. We knew that in order to pass, this bill could not create a precedent to pass other claim bills based on historic racial injustices. So because the incident occurred over a week, because government officials knew of the carnage and had ample opportunity to protect its Rosewood citizens and failed to act, because later investigations and questioning of eyewitness failed to find any basis for an indictment, and because the failure to act by Florida's government officials resulted in the residents losing their property, we were able to pass this bill. We found the standards that allowed Rosewood to stand alone as the one event that met each of these criteria.
And finally, Y stands for You. Any effort to correct past wrongs or to provide an equal opportunity to succeed must start with you. Because you can make a difference. You must take the initiative and have the mental savvy, determination, and endurance to see your project through to the end.
So you have got to PRAY, if you want to have your day.Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Tim Wise wrote a very good piece about how riots and crimes perpetrated by white people are never defined as "white" violence. If I come across it, I'll post the link in the mzungu thread.Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb] I was able to easily find a very large number of white rioting incidents, including some very recent ones, like a large riot at the Olympics in Salt Lake City over BEER SALES BEING STOPPED EARLY!![/qb]
Let's follow that reasoning then shall we. Let's apply the payment of damages to specific victims and their survivors (children/parents) in the 20th century (thereby limiting who gets what and for which period). Let's also limit damages to specific, documented, and proven racial crimes:Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb]I think in this case making reparations should be easy for a court to agree to because there is a very specific and relatively recent incident with very specific victims and very specific economic loss. [/qb]
- lynchings
- wrongful arrest and execution
- disenfranchisement
- wrongful death
- assault
- destruction of property
- wrongful dismissal
- denial of housing
- terrorist attacks
The list could go on, but I'll stop for now. The Civil Rights Act is only 41 years old and it did not end many of the above crimes. Bear in mind that this doesn't even take into account the daily nonsense of DWB, can't sit at the lunch counter, separate and unequal schools, unfair portrayals of blacks by the media, etc.
It would be very interesting to see what percentage of the black population would be eligible for some form of damages if this was applied. Reparations for slavery or damages for racial crimes leads to an awful lot of money for an awful lot of people either way.Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
I think I have it and will post it there.Originally posted by BlackStar:
Tim Wise wrote a very good piece about how riots and crimes perpetrated by white people are never defined as "white" violence. If I come across it, I'll post the link in the mzungu thread.
I would imagine a very large percentage.Let's follow that reasoning then shall we. Let's apply the payment of damages to specific victims and their survivors (children/parents) in the 20th century (thereby limiting who gets what and for which period). Let's also limit damages to specific, documented, and proven racial crimes:Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb]I think in this case making reparations should be easy for a court to agree to because there is a very specific and relatively recent incident with very specific victims and very specific economic loss. [/qb]
- lynchings
- wrongful arrest and execution
- disenfranchisement
- wrongful death
- assault
- destruction of property
- wrongful dismissal
- denial of housing
- terrorist attacks
The list could go on, but I'll stop for now. The Civil Rights Act is only 41 years old and it did not end many of the above crimes. Bear in mind that this doesn't even take into the daily nonsense of DWB, can't sit at the lunch counter, separate and unequal schools, unfair portrayals of blacks by the media, etc.
It would be very interesting to see what percentage of the black population would be eligible for some form of damages if this was applied. Reparations for slavery or damages for racial crimes leads to an awful lot of money for an awful lot of people either way. [/QB]Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
On this issue, didnt they have some Conference in South Africa where Powell walked out and where the Europeans agreed to give the Africans food instead of reparations(who agreed thankfully a grin), case closed?Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Comments shown as quotes are ohliz's:
It wouldn't. But it would have laid the "reparation" argument to rest. Other matters rising from it would have been secondary and easily dismissed. Discrimination, Racism, Jim Crow Laws and Lynchings would still occur because whites felt they were robbed of their "way of life" and wanted to preserve their previlidges and superiority that slavery gave them.I'm not sure that had the acres and mule been paid then that we would not be having this discussion now. Would that have stopped all the racism, the Jim Crow laws, the lynchings and economic barriers to black advancement that have occurred since then?
I can't see how.
That is quite a loaded one ohliz, but I will try my best... If I were and could trace my ancestry to an American slave, I would expect some form of payment or restitution (not neccessarily cash). There is no point in believing that things could ever be evened up, and there would be an installment plan in such a deal. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] `Cash can never replace being torn away from your original family or your culture. It would be seen as an acknowledgement (apology if you will) to blacks of the "wrong doing" during and after slavery.Would you, if you were a descendant of American slaves, be OK with some form of payment like the Hungarian Jews got? Would that even things up? Or do you see it as a first step only?
You are right! some may want to say that, We have paid them, no need for affirmative action and other social programs for "them", but it wouldn't work. How would you explain social programs in other countries that never had slavery? Social programs like pork barrel spending in the US are the functions of govt in providing amenities and services to members of a society... To my way of thinking, there is not enough money in the US treasury to pay for the sins and the aftermath of slavery. One cannot measure every wrong or grievance in terms of "Money", how much does a life cost or is worth? How much is the cost of 6 million or 10 million lives? I leave you with that thought.I think many misunderstand my position here. I am not against reparations.
I think they are not enough, and I think that if they are accepted, then that's all the powers that be need in order to say, forever "well we paid them, why do they still want us to change our laws or have affirmative action or [insert social program here]".
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We shall see but a little way if we require to understand what we see : Henry David ThoreauComment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
I agree with what you have said. Had the government made good on the mule/land promise, the gov't would have made reparation directly to those affected...or at least more exactly than could happen today.
I mean social programs that are explicitly to benefit people of a certain race (or races), such as affirmative action in hiring, college admissions, etc.You are right! some may want to say that, We have paid them, no need for affirmative action and other social programs for "them", but it wouldn't work. How would you explain social programs in other countries that never had slavery? Social programs like pork barrel spending in the US are the functions of govt in providing amenities and services to members of a society...
Exactly. There is a lot more going on here than lost wages. There's being taken away from home (and that was done not BY Americans, though it was in most every sense done FOR Americans - to my knowledge the slaves bought for the Atlantic slave trade were not initially captured by Europeans or Americans), separated from one's children/parents/family, brutal treatment, murder.To my way of thinking, there is not enough money in the US treasury to pay for the sins and the aftermath of slavery. One cannot measure every wrong or grievance in terms of "Money", how much does a life cost or is worth? How much is the cost of 6 million or 10 million lives? I leave you with that thought.
It seems being compensated for these financially is not quite right.
Of course people get compensated financially for losing a family member to malpractice or being blinded by a poorly-made product and such all the time, so in a sense it may be all that the US justice system can really offer.Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
Which leads back to my previous post.Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb] Of course people get compensated financially for losing a family member to malpractice or being blinded by a poorly-made product and such all the time, so in a sense it may be all that the US justice system can really offer. [/qb]Comment
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Re: Reparations: Is it appropriate?
As far as I have been able to ascertain, no governmental body ever discussed a 40 acre and a mule package to compensate blacks for their servitude. The Government never promised to make any reparations to former slaves.
40 acres and a mule is just another rural legend. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]Comment
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