The Book of Job...

[heretic]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]I glad you said that Heretic. Read Job 38 - 41. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Ok. I am familiar with that bit of discourse between Job and God. Job asks God "what's the deal?". God never answers. He puts on this display of power to intimidate Job. How dare you question me?! Can you do what I do!? The entire spech by God is nothing more than a circuituos way of avoiding Job's question. Why didn't God just come out and tell Job the truth? Did he doubt that Job could handle such a horrible truth?

It seems God tries to guilt Job into not pressing the matter. At the end God implies that Job might be haughty and proud - both vices not found in pefect men. Why the contradiction? The effect is obvious however, Job feels bad about questioning authority and drops the matter - letting God off the hook.

God's actions here are reminiscent of a parent with a guilty conscience: A parent does something wrong or stupid. Child asks "why mommy?" BLOW!! - one bax reach im. "Bwoy yu a smell yu aam. Nu paas yu place. mi a yu mumma - doa question mi". Display of force and authority to hide guilt and shame.

[heretic]

Re: The Book of Job...

An observation: People often talk about the story of Job as if Job were the only victim of God's little wager. What of the servants? What of the children?

Another observation: Why should an all powerful, all knowing being make a bet with anyone? What is the point? Why does god have to prove anything to Satan when he couldn't even give Job a straight answer?

[Guest]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by heretic:
Aaaah. His friends may have thought that. However his friends were not privy to enough of the picture. Through the bible, god's word, we see more of the picture than they did -we know God's opinion of Job. God's opinion takes precedence over the opinion of the three friends.

Originally posted by heretic:
[qb]Ok. I am familiar with that bit of discourse between Job and God. Job asks God "what's the deal?". God never answers. He puts on this display of power to intimidate Job. How dare you question me?! Can you do what I do!? The entire spech by God is nothing more than a circuituos way of avoiding Job's question. Why didn't God just come out and tell Job the truth? Did he doubt that Job could handle such a horrible truth? [/qb]

[acceptedtoday]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by heretic:
[qb]

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]I glad you said that Heretic. Read Job 38 - 41. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Ok. I am familiar with that bit of discourse between Job and God. Job asks God "what's the deal?". God never answers. He puts on this display of power to intimidate Job. How dare you question me?! Can you do what I do!? The entire spech by God is nothing more than a circuituos way of avoiding Job's question. Why didn't God just come out and tell Job the truth? Did he doubt that Job could handle such a horrible truth?

It seems God tries to guilt Job into not pressing the matter. At the end God implies that Job might be haughty and proud - both vices not found in pefect men. Why the contradiction? The effect is obvious however, Job feels bad about questioning authority and drops the matter - letting God off the hook.

God's actions here are reminiscent of a parent with a guilty conscience: A parent does something wrong or stupid. Child asks "why mommy?" BLOW!! - one bax reach im. "Bwoy yu a smell yu aam. Nu paas yu place. mi a yu mumma - doa question mi". Display of force and authority to hide guilt and shame. [/qb]

Heretic,

Maybe you should ask yourself which of the numerous questions Job asked of God was the one that got the response.

Job have an overiding issue summed up in Why?

But he does make an issue of time and eternity in chapter 14 and ask how long would God bag up his iniquity.

His challenge was not just limited to time, now, it was expanded to a notion that his punishment may be eternal, ...if a man dies shall he live again...???

There is a notion of time and eternity that God introduces in his response to Job question.

Are you sure Job did not get an answer?

[Guest]

Re: The Book of Job...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by heretic:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]QUOTE]

The comparison between Job and Jesus is noted. This comparison, however, illustrates the problems that many of us have with the story of Job. Unlike servant Jedi who cannot fathom why she suffers we know why both Jesus and Job suffer. (I'm just following your lead with the servant Jedi example) We look at Jesus and and from the big picture we conclude that his suffering was worth it. It was for the greater good - he suffered that we might be saved from our sins. We look at Job and we know that he suffers because of an apparently trivial bet between god and the devil.

Jedi: Okay but in this discussion we are looking at Job the man and trying to analyze his reaction to his suffering from his point of view aren't we? In order to do so we find ourselves having to empathize or put ourselves in his place to get a better understanding of his reaction to suffering and pain. Hence I used myself as an example.

We know that Job is suffering because of a bet between God and Satan because we are told so in the Book of Job. Job however like servant Jedi or any other child of God doesn't know that does he? So if we were to be fair Job is in the same predicament as Jedi and all the servants of God in that they do not know why they are suffering.

But let us not discount Jesus so readily here on the basis of the fact that he knew why he had to suffer and die, having the foreknowledge of being very God himself. You see we are working here with two things, a) suffering when we know it is for a good cause and b)suffering in the absence of any knowledge of whether it is worthwhile or not. I also want to add here - we who are called by the name of Christ can also rest assured that we likewise as Christ do not suffer for no good reason for we have the promises of God as our reassurance if indeed we suffer while doing good. Did Job have that foreknowledge even?

You see what strikes me in the suffering of the man Jesus is this - we see him responding just as Job or any or us would. "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" is his cry while hanging on the cross. It would seem to me that in the midst of suffering is where our unique faith and reliance upon God to save us is tested.

At the moment of testing the flesh's response is to cry out and question God's faithfulness to us. Jesus' suffering and His cry is evidence of that. Another saint comes to mind in this and that is John the Baptist while in prison. If you recall he sent his disciples to question Jesus if he was really the Messiah or not. Why? Didn't he just not too long ago baptize the man? Didn't he see the Spirit of God decent upon him like a dove? So where did that come from?

Remember Jesus was a man as well he was Very God.

The question then becomes where do we stand before God in the crucible of our testing?

This is difficult to reconcile. Job did nothing wrong and he got screwed over for no good reason.

It would appear as though he got screwed over that is for sure. But let us consider the conditions of the bet. Satan said to God in essence, Job is only faithful because God has lavished good things on him. He then counters let us see if he will remain as good and faithful if everything were to be taken away from him. God agrees to the testing to prove a point to Satan. I believe I alluded to that above.

In the midst of suffering something peculiar happens to everyone of us. We cry out to God. Did Job do what satan expected him to do which was even as his wife had suggested...'curse God and die?' No he didn't. So who lost the bet? Look at Jesus the man, what did he do in the midst of his suffering? He likewise cried out to God. We can more easily empathize with Job's illustration of suffering because we like Job have no claim on the Divine Godhead. But if we look at Jesus the man we have our example set before us. So what do we do in the crucible of testing? That is the surest measure or our faith and reliance upon God to save us.

What then can the rest of us who aren't perfect and upright expect?

Well certainly you pose a good question here. What can the unregenerate expect? I would dare say that if you are separated from God your cry will likely come upon deaf ears. Unless your suffering like Jesus, like Job and like so many other servants of God only serves to draw you to cry out to God as you are faced with your own weak and helpless mortal condition. If your suffering brings you to your knees in repentance before God, would you conclude that your suffering was for no good reason? In order to answer to how God rewards the sufferer you need only to look at the end of Job's story. You need to look at the end of Jesus' life - where did He end up?

[heretic]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]

Originally posted by heretic:
Aaaah. His friends may have thought that. However his friends were not privy to enough of the picture. Through the bible, god's word, we see more of the picture than they did -we know God's opinion of Job. God's opinion takes precedence over the opinion of the three friends.

Originally posted by heretic:
[qb]Ok. I am familiar with that bit of discourse between Job and God. Job asks God "what's the deal?". God never answers. He puts on this display of power to intimidate Job. How dare you question me?! Can you do what I do!? The entire spech by God is nothing more than a circuituos way of avoiding Job's question. Why didn't God just come out and tell Job the truth? Did he doubt that Job could handle such a horrible truth? [/qb]

[/qb]

Compry, I am sleep deprived and brain fried at the moment. Subtlety is likely to be wasted on me right now. So help me out. Did I contradict myself or something?

[Morpheous]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Well now Compry we are back to a topic I brought up before on the subject of Job. The book opens with God making a boast about Job and Satan taking him to task that Job was only serving him (God) because of his blessings. As blasphemous as it sounds, God obliged Satan and allowed him to abuse Job to prove a point (that Job was true to him DESPITE his fortunes). Nowhere in this do I see where God was trying to teach Job a lesson per se. It's not like say, the story of Nebuchadnezzar whom we are told was full of himself and THEN his abasement detailed.

Do you think you are reading more into the story than is actually there? Granted, perhaps Job learning more about God was a byproduct of his trial, but to imply that this was the reason he was tested would contradict the book's opening reason. [/qb]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
This is really an interesting observation CEW. I feel it is a real honest way of looking at it because when you read the story, how else can you see it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There really isn't any other way if one understands the entire story. Putting a spin on it to make an angel out of Job is doing the poor guy a disservice and robs him of his humanity. It is one of those instances where God actions and His words didn't quite add up and Job challenged what he perceived to be the inconsistency. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I would suggest that Job's reaction took God by surprise, just as God's actions caught Job off-guard.

Hmmm very interesting... I wonder however? God knows everything. God knows the past and the future so nothing can surprise him or catch him "off-guard". Satan knows that God knows everything, past and future. Therefore logics tells me that this mind game between God and Satan was illogical.

I mean logics would suggests that both God and indeed Satan would know the results before they were even began!! I am led to think that the devil can do everything God can do except blow breath into man so therefore I logically assume satan can see into the future just like God can...

I need some clarification here people!! The purpose/nature of this story about Job seems wierd to me???? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[DC]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Morpheous:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Well now Compry we are back to a topic I brought up before on the subject of Job. The book opens with God making a boast about Job and Satan taking him to task that Job was only serving him (God) because of his blessings. As blasphemous as it sounds, God obliged Satan and allowed him to abuse Job to prove a point (that Job was true to him DESPITE his fortunes). Nowhere in this do I see where God was trying to teach Job a lesson per se. It's not like say, the story of Nebuchadnezzar whom we are told was full of himself and THEN his abasement detailed.

Do you think you are reading more into the story than is actually there? Granted, perhaps Job learning more about God was a byproduct of his trial, but to imply that this was the reason he was tested would contradict the book's opening reason. [/qb]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
This is really an interesting observation CEW. I feel it is a real honest way of looking at it because when you read the story, how else can you see it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There really isn't any other way if one understands the entire story. Putting a spin on it to make an angel out of Job is doing the poor guy a disservice and robs him of his humanity. It is one of those instances where God actions and His words didn't quite add up and Job challenged what he perceived to be the inconsistency. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I would suggest that Job's reaction took God by surprise, just as God's actions caught Job off-guard.

Hmmm very interesting... I wonder however? God knows everything. God knows the past and the future so nothing can surprise him or catch him "off-guard". Satan knows that God knows everything, past and future. Therefore logics tells me that this mind game between God and Satan was illogical.

I mean logics would suggests that both God and indeed Satan would know the results before they were even began!! I am led to think that the devil can do everything God can do except blow breath into man so therefore I logically assume satan can see into the future just like God can...

I need some clarification here people!! The purpose/nature of this story about Job seems wierd to me???? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/qb]

Morpheus,
When I look at the Bible's description of Satan, it really does not describe him as an omniscient or omnipresent being. The only being that the Bible declred have these attributes is God. In the initial story, Satan was sure that Job would deny God because he said that Job was serving God simply because God had blessed him[Job] with wealth.
God said 'No, he serves me willingly and trust me enough even when life is unfair and he loses everything"(paraphrasing here).
Satan really had no clue as to how Job would respond; his knowledge of Job's future actions was limited.

[Guest]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]Do you think you are reading more into the story than is actually there? Granted, perhaps Job learning more about God was a byproduct of his trial, but to imply that this was the reason he was tested would contradict the book's opening reason. [/qb]

No, I don't believe that I'm reading more into the story. I am reading one of the many lessons that can be found in the story of Job.

In the first chapter of Job we see God telling satan that Job is blameless, upright and a man who fears God. Satan counters that by saying the only reason Job is an upstanding citizen is because God has blessed him and kept him from harm. Let the testings begin.

Job's response to the first test, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

His response to his wife after the second test, "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Job is keeping his cool and really trying to not question or curse God but there is something that caught my eye and I don't think that I'm reading too much into anything because we see this plainly in Chapter 3. "Naked I came out of my mother's womb....shall we receive good ....and not evil". From the very beginning of Job's testing he placed the focus on himself.

Looking it his story you can't blame the guy. He did nothing, that we can see, to deserve what happened to him. However as the story unfolds we see that Job's three friends gave up trying to get through to Job because "he was righteous in his own eyes", Job 32:1. We also see Elihu being "very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God", Job 32:2. Elihu then atempted to show Job who God IS however it was not until God himself steps in that Job actually saw God for who He was.

Job 42:6 states, "Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job saw where he messed up and being a man who feared God, he repented and went on to accept God's plans for his life.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by heretic:

Originally posted by Compry:
Hmmmm, you may not think he was however his friends did. "Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes."

Aaaah. His friends may have thought that. However his friends were not privy to enough of the picture. Through the bible, god's word, we see more of the picture than they did -we know God's opinion of Job. God's opinion takes precedence over the opinion of the three friends.

I agree with you here.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Compry:

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Do you think you are reading more into the story than is actually there? Granted, perhaps Job learning more about God was a byproduct of his trial, but to imply that this was the reason he was tested would contradict the book's opening reason.

No, I don't believe that I'm reading more into the story. I am reading one of the many lessons that can be found in the story of Job.

In the first chapter of Job we see God telling satan that Job is blameless, upright and a man who fears God. Satan counters that by saying the only reason Job is an upstanding citizen is because God has blessed him and kept him from harm. Let the testings begin.

Job's response to the first test, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

His response to his wife after the second test, "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Job is keeping his cool and really trying to not question or curse God but there is something that caught my eye and I don't think that I'm reading too much into anything because we see this plainly in Chapter 3. "Naked I came out of my mother's womb....shall we receive good ....and not evil". From the very beginning of Job's testing he placed the focus on himself.

You do have to be careful here as I do believe there is a risk of placing more emphasis on this portion of text than is necessary. Job did not place the focus on himself in a negative way; he was simply looking at the reality of his situation and at least in the initial stages, believed God would vindicate him because of his 'right standing' with God. This was not a selfish move. All who were under the Old Testament covenant had this right, and Job saw himself as being in a covenant relationship with God that required God to vindicate him in the face of his losses. Why? Because he (Job) was true to his portion of the covenant, and he expected God to be true to His. It is important to place Job's comments within it's context to better understand what he was getting at.

Looking it his story you can't blame the guy. He did nothing, that we can see, to deserve what happened to him. However as the story unfolds we see that Job's three friends gave up trying to get through to Job because "he was righteous in his own eyes", Job 32:1. We also see Elihu being "very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God", Job 32:2. Elihu then atempted to show Job who God IS however it was not until God himself steps in that Job actually saw God for who He was.

Interesting. Again, we have to be careful. As mentioned earlier, Job was under covenant and was perfectly within his right to point out that he was faithful in keeping his end of the deal. I believe this was the point he was making to his friends.

Job 42:6 states, "Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job saw where he messed up and being a man who feared God, he repented and went on to accept God's plans for his life.

What did he repent from? It is worth noting that the Hebrew word used for the "repent" in the text cited, is the same word used when we first saw in Genesis where God repented he made man. If I follow the application of the word as used, did God mess up?

[Diplomat]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Morpheous:

Originally posted by CEW:
There really isn't any other way if one understands the entire story. Putting a spin on it to make an angel out of Job is doing the poor guy a disservice and robs him of his humanity. It is one of those instances where God actions and His words didn't quite add up and Job challenged what he perceived to be the inconsistency. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I would suggest that Job's reaction took God by surprise, just as God's actions caught Job off-guard.

Hmmm very interesting... I wonder however? God knows everything. God knows the past and the future so nothing can surprise him or catch him "off-guard". Satan knows that God knows everything, past and future.

The Bible attributes human emotions and reactions to God such as "love", "hate", "sorrow", and so on. It is not unreasonable to inclued "surprise" in that range of human emotions.

[Morpheous]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Morpheous:

Originally posted by CEW:
There really isn't any other way if one understands the entire story. Putting a spin on it to make an angel out of Job is doing the poor guy a disservice and robs him of his humanity. It is one of those instances where God actions and His words didn't quite add up and Job challenged what he perceived to be the inconsistency. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I would suggest that Job's reaction took God by surprise, just as God's actions caught Job off-guard.

Hmmm very interesting... I wonder however? God knows everything. God knows the past and the future so nothing can surprise him or catch him "off-guard". Satan knows that God knows everything, past and future.

The Bible attributes human emotions and reactions to God such as "love", "hate", "sorrow", and so on. It is not unreasonable to inclued "surprise" in that range of human emotions. [/qb]

OK I see your point CEW... but I still don't see the logics in God and Satan doing the "point proving" over job. I mean God don't give satan that kind of respect to even want to indulge him...does he ???

[Diplomat]

Re: The Book of Job...

Originally posted by Morpheous:

Originally posted by CEW:
The Bible attributes human emotions and reactions to God such as "love", "hate", "sorrow", and so on. It is not unreasonable to inclued "surprise" in that range of human emotions.

OK I see your point CEW... but I still don't see the logics in God and Satan doing the "point proving" over job. I mean God don't give satan that kind of respect to even want to indulge him...does he ???

I'm sure there will be a line-up of folks wanting to ask God about the 'divine wager'. In his book God, a Biography, Jack Miles makes the point that "it should be noted that it is the devil who introduces this higher morality and that he does so in the course of tempting the Lord into abusing Job. It is the devil who insinuates that unless practiced "for nought," virtue is not true virtue...In all the Bible, it never occurred to God that mankind should serve Him "for nought," that is, for no reward." While I may not necessarily agree with Mile's assertion, it does introduce the question of whether or not the wager was about Job, or about God wanting to see if mankind could/would serve Him without the promise/guarantee of rewards.

[Guest]

Re: The Book of Job...

CEW, I read something today and I thought I would share a portion here.

If God desires to speak to each of us through His Word, then we should be expectantly listening. He has a word of encouragement, strength, or comfort. It is the great mystery of preaching that a man can give a message about one truth from Scripture and everybody in the church hears something different—the exact point God knows each person needs.