Questions for the christians

[Diplomat]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtriment</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PDB_Again</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't imagine that there isn't a heaven or hell dude cause there is. It's like saying, man, suppose I was in Jamaica, I would have been........no! Mi stop think like that cause I ain't in Jamaica and that's fact.</div></div>
There is absolutely no proof of a heaven or a hell,....these are man made constructs,..the whole concept of &quot;hell&quot; lies in the assumption that its where &quot;bad&quot; people go after death,apart from the fact that different religions have different destinations after death for &quot;bad&quot; people....no one has ever come back from death to prove the existence of &quot;hell&quot;....likewise no one has ever proven that a &quot;heaven&quot; exists.

Simply because you cant imagine that there isnt a heaven or a hell isnt proof enough that they do exists.
</div></div>
First of all, you need to appreciate that not all professing Christians believe in the notion of a literal heaven or hell. Secondly, you need to appreciate also that while it is true that no one has returned from the dead to confirm the existence of either place, no one has returned to deny their existence either. It seems to me therefore that the issue is really a matter of faith, either way. What we choose to believe is influenced by our biases which in turn are shaped by any number of variables. If the Christian cannot literally prove heaven or hell, and the non-Christian cannot disprove either of them, aren't both persons literally in the same place?

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
First of all, you need to appreciate that not all professing Christians believe in the notion of a literal heaven or hell. Secondly, you need to appreciate also that while it is true that no one has returned from the dead to confirm the existence of either place, no one has returned to deny their existence either. It seems to me therefore that the issue is really a matter of faith, either way. What we choose to believe is influenced by our biases which in turn are shaped by any number of variables. If the Christian cannot literally prove heaven or hell, and the non-Christian cannot disprove either of them, aren't both persons literally in the same place? </div></div>

I take your point that not all professing christian believe in the notion of a literal heaven or hell,I`m willing to accept that.
However,on the question of faith,wouldnt it also be true that simply because one has faith in something that doesnt make it true,I could have faith that if I dived off a cliff I wont die,then find that I splattered when I hit the ground.
The argument that because no one can or has prove that a heaven or hell exists, does not mean it doesnt is often used I know,but I tend to take my cue from what we know of our world based on scientific facts,and based on that I would have to say that both heaven and hell may have been misinterpreted by christians,.....there is no scientific evidence to prove that such places exists,or indeed if such a state of mind exists after death.

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't know why faith chooses some and not others I believe some don't make themselves accesible some too busy and some just stubborn.

But the same grace extended to CEW to COMPRAY to PDB to all others of faith is extended to all.

We have faith in a lot of things in this world, some find faith in this not of this world.

The boy Samuel, the Boy David, the boy Joseph, the boy Timothy the girl Ruth, the girl Mary.

The really awesome thing is we don't earn it its a gift from we just accept it.

God ask us to have faith in him because he gives the faith to us its our response that counts. </div></div>

Well it would seems that this faith thing is very important to christians,I am willing to edge my bets,I`ll be just as good a person as you are,but with one exception,..I`ll remain in the belief that a god doesnt exists,...if I`m proven wrong eventually then this god who`s supposed to be a forgiving god will see that I was a good person and he should say,..&quot;you know newt,..you didnt believe I exists but you done well my son,you were a good man,take your complimentary milk and honey on your way in&quot;.

[Shine_Eye_Girl]

Re: Questions for the christians

Mawnin Newt....yu gi science and man way too much credit.....big bang theory believer huh?

Where do you think that knowledge of scientific theories come from?

Have you ever read revelation?

[heretic]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtriment</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't know why faith chooses some and not others I believe some don't make themselves accesible some too busy and some just stubborn.

But the same grace extended to CEW to COMPRAY to PDB to all others of faith is extended to all.

We have faith in a lot of things in this world, some find faith in this not of this world.

The boy Samuel, the Boy David, the boy Joseph, the boy Timothy the girl Ruth, the girl Mary.

The really awesome thing is we don't earn it its a gift from we just accept it.

God ask us to have faith in him because he gives the faith to us its our response that counts. </div></div>

Well it would seems that this faith thing is very important to christians,I am willing to edge my bets,I`ll be just as good a person as you are,but with one exception,..I`ll remain in the belief that a god doesnt exists,...if I`m proven wrong eventually then this god who`s supposed to be a forgiving god will see that I was a good person and he should say,..&quot;you know newt,..you didnt believe I exists but you done well my son,you were a good man,take your complimentary milk and honey on your way in&quot;. </div></div>So whaapen to all who lactose intolerant?

[heretic]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TLC_30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mawnin Newt....yu gi science and man way too much credit.....big bang theory believer huh? </div></div>Indeed, what has science ever done for humanity anyway? Those morons wasting time trying to cure polio and cancer. Jus pray it off man! Pray it off!**

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where do you think that knowledge of scientific theories come from?

Have you ever read revelation?</div></div>From the Bible, of course.



<span style="font-style: italic">**Disclaimer**
'Pray it off' offer not open to amputees. Your mileage may vary.</span>

[Shine_Eye_Girl]

Re: Questions for the christians

it is too early in the morning for sarcasm....but good morning hun...

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TLC_30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mawnin Newt....yu gi science and man way too much credit.....big bang theory believer huh?

Where do you think that knowledge of scientific theories come from?

Have you ever read revelation?
</div></div>

Everything we know is as a result of proven scientific and biological facts,I dont know about a big bang,that theory hasnt been proven beyond doubt,however,the notion that man owes his knowledge to some higher power hasnt been proved either,.....man is still searching for answers about why we are here,and how we came to be,..hence man has created gods in their own image,we are too weak to comprehend a world where there is no higher being to answer to.

As for revalation,I dont really place much importance on what was written in the bible,the bible is simply a book that was written by man and re-interpreted over the years according to who is doing the interpreting,in my opinion that book is not only outdated and archaic,its ludicrious to read what is written in it and attempt to iterpret it to fit the era we are living in.

[Diplomat]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtriment</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....<span style="font-weight: bold">there is no scientific evidence to prove that such places exists,or indeed if such a state of mind exists after death. </span></div></div>
But therein lies the problem. Science is limited to the realm of the natural/material, even though some of the scientific disciplines require a leap of &quot;faith&quot; to embrace concepts that no one has proven. Science has done a tremendous job in explaining what we see around us, but no way can it venture into the realm of the spiritual, e.g. proving the existence or non-existence of heaven and hell, and claim any validity to any of its conclusions. That is why it comes back to what one chooses to believe; not unlike two people looking at the same thing and walking away with two opposite conclusions. One or both of them is/are inevitably wrong, but they can't both be right.

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Science has done a tremendous job in explaining what we see around us, but no way can it venture into the realm of the spiritual, e.g. proving the existence or non-existence of heaven and hell, and claim any validity to any of its conclusions. That is why it comes back to what one chooses to believe; not unlike two people looking at the same thing and walking away with two opposite conclusions. One or both of them is/are inevitably wrong, but they can't both be right. </div></div>

Given all that we <span style="font-weight: bold">do </span> know,and can safely acknowledgeis is possible within the realm of rationality,the existence of a heaven or hell just doesnt fall within that rationality,even a spiritual state of heaven or hell after death,it just seems to be stretching credibility a bit far CEW.

It still amazes me how so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world can embrace the concept of heaven or hell,or a &quot;god&quot;,and all the other stuff that comes with the bible and christianity,it just seems crazy that people are prepared to believe so much contradictions,irrationalities,and outward impossible feats,...based on &quot;faith&quot; of the unknown.

Admittedly I have no quarell with christianity itself,stripped of all its most outrageous concepts,including the virgin birth,its not such a bad thing after all,there`s nothing wrong with some aspects of christian beliefs,...including some aspects of the 10 commandments,its how seemingly sane people are willing to believe such extraordinary stuff in support of &quot;faith&quot;..thats what I find incredible.

[Diplomat]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It still amazes me how so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world can embrace the concept of heaven or hell,or a &quot;god&quot;,and all the other stuff that comes with the bible and christianity,it just seems crazy that people are prepared to believe so much contradictions, irrationalities, and outward impossible feats,...based on &quot;faith&quot; of the unknown.</div></div>
But how much of christianity have you personally studied to confirm the &quot;contradictions,irrationalities,and outward impossible feats&quot;, or are you simply content to repeat what you have heard? And what is a Biblical contradiction anyways? There are myriads of literature that addresses so-called contradictions, it's as if the people claiming them haven't read any of the apologetics. And just because something may seem irrational and outwardly impossible doesn't negate their factuality. From the Christian perspective, we don't even have to use the Bible to find evidence of those things. One just need to consider the change in the life of one who genuinely accepts the Good News to see the transforming power of christian coversion on the physical, emotional, social, congnitive, volitional, spiritual, and other domains of personhood. It is only from the human perspective that we deem things irrational and outwardly impossible, and from that perspective I agree with you 100%. The separation however comes when I take it one step further and look at those things from God's perspective. From there, nothing is impossible or irrational.

So in some ways, we're back to square one. While the unbeliever finds it incredulous that &quot;so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world can embrace the concept ... of 'god'&quot;, the believer finds it just as incredulous, all things considered, that &quot;so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world&quot; don't.

[Shine_Eye_Girl]

Re: Questions for the christians

What amazes me is that how so many supposed intelligent people give man so much credit.

Did deeper and think about where this all comes from.....come on do you really think man is responsible for all of this?

The arrogance of man is responsible for his demise.....

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But how much of christianity have you personally studied to confirm the &quot;contradictions,irrationalities,and outward impossible feats&quot;, or are you simply content to repeat what you have heard? And what is a Biblical contradiction anyways? There are myriads of literature that addresses so-called contradictions, it's as if the people claiming them haven't read any of the apologetics. And just because something may seem irrational and outwardly impossible doesn't negate their factuality. From the Christian perspective, we don't even have to use the Bible to find evidence of those things. One just need to consider the change in the life of one who genuinely accepts the Good News to see the transforming power of christian coversion on the physical, emotional, social, congnitive, volitional, spiritual, and other domains of personhood. It is only from the human perspective that we deem things irrational and outwardly impossible, and from that perspective I agree with you 100%. The separation however comes when I take it one step further and look at those things from God's perspective. From there, nothing is impossible or irrational.

So in some ways, we're back to square one. While the unbeliever finds it incredulous that &quot;so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world can embrace the concept ... of 'god'&quot;, the believer finds it just as incredulous, all things considered, that &quot;so many supposedly intelligent rational people in the world&quot; don't.

</div></div>

CEW,you are correct,I havent studied enough about christianity to confirm the contradictions etc,..I have however read enough on the subject to know that contradictions are rife,I could name numerous and you would come back with an answer for them,.the fact that contradictions can be explained away by yet another biblical passage doesnt make them any less of a contradiction.

I have now come to the acceptance that its almost impossible for a non believer to discuss christianity with a believer and for either to gain any meaningful insight,an example of this is you looking at it &quot;from gods perspectives&quot;...a concept I can never comprehend based on my position and outlook on the whole argument.

You say this...&quot;<span style="font-weight: bold"> One just need to consider the change in the life of one who genuinely accepts the Good News to see the transforming power of christian coversion on the physical, emotional, social, congnitive, volitional, spiritual, and other domains of personhood.</span>&quot;

Those changes are not limited to just people who &quot;accept the good news&quot;,...non believers are also perceptible to those very changes to their personhood,...and trust me,I`ve seen some pretty miserable people who have also claimed to have accept the good news.

As you rightly say though,we are back to square one,..each incredulous of the others position......LOl !

Thanks for a good discussion mate.

[neutral]

Re: Questions for the christians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TLC_30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What amazes me is that how so many supposed intelligent people give man so much credit.

Did deeper and think about where this all comes from.....come on do you really think man is responsible for all of this?

The arrogance of man is responsible for his demise..... </div></div>

TLC,...I am of the school that thinks that we are masters of our own destiny,the more insight we gain into how things work the more some will say &quot;look &quot;god&quot; is responsible&quot;,,..there is no higher power,no god,we are left to our own devices,yes man is arrogant,and the more knowledgeable we get the more arrogant we get,ultimately we may yet destroy ourselves but it wont be as a result of any gods.

You`ve only got to look around you to see the destruction man wreaks on each other,the poverty,inequalities,how powerful rulers treat less powerful countries,...christians interpret every disaster as yet another proof that &quot;god is coming for his world&quot;....yet this so-called god never shows up,and man go on destroying each other, some in the name of these very gods.

[H_O]

Re: Questions for the christians

and here comes the part that &quot;its the devils work&quot;.

like thats a possibility. so when i get this answer, im left to believe the god they believe in is (a) a coward and (b) and weak.

so im left to believe that the word &quot;god&quot; means highest power.
so therefore if its the devils work, then our devil is winning the battle.
but then again, most people usually cheer on the underdog.
as soon as we can rid this world of religion, the sooner we can all get along and stop fighting wars. because most wars are fought on the basis of religion. go figure.
you figure if theres a god and there was, and there were proof-everyone would believe the same thing.
but no, we got different religions and different beliefs and no one can agree.