Another reason I am not a Christian

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]you mean tell the truth

Your idea of what is truth is very often distorted, a fact proven over and over.

{Fledgist: Oh? Here's a verse from the Bible (1 Peter 2 xviiii):"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." Tell us if this is the word of your god.}

No I mean just what I said....... SPREAD THE HATE[/qb]

Tell us, Jedi, what you would do if you had political power. I'm curious.

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]you mean tell the truth

Your idea of what is truth is very often distorted, a fact proven over and over.

No I mean just what I said....... SPREAD THE HATE[/qb]

Tell us, Jedi, what you would do if you had political power. I'm curious.[/qb]

Tell us Fledgist, what would you do if you had political power?

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]you mean tell the truth

Your idea of what is truth is very often distorted, a fact proven over and over.

No I mean just what I said....... SPREAD THE HATE[/qb]

Tell us, Jedi, what you would do if you had political power. I'm curious.[/qb]

Tell us Fledgist, what would you do if you had political power?[/qb]

Implement the policy proposed by J.S. Mill in On Liberty. Now answer my question, why don't you. And tell us if 1 Peter 2 xviii is the revealed word of your god.

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
{Fledgist: Then I presume that you are not 'praying' for me. For that I'm grateful. Of course, since by your belief I'm going straight to hell, I'm interested to see that the thought makes you happy. I'm not surprised.}


{Jedi: Key word PRESUME
Let us see what the dictionary says about presume:}

pre·sume ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-zm)
v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes
v. tr.
To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.

v. intr.
To act overconfidently; take liberties.
To take unwarranted advantage of something; go beyond the proper limits: Don't presume on their hospitality.
To take for granted that something is true or factual; suppose: That's the new assistant, I presume.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English presumen, from Old French presumer, from Late Latin praesmere, from Latin, to anticipate : prae-, pre- + smere, to take; see em- in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pre·sumed·ly (-zmd-l) adv.
pre·sumer n.
Synonyms: presume, presuppose, postulate, posit, assume
These verbs signify to take something for granted or as being a fact. To presume is to suppose that something is reasonable or possible in the absence of proof to the contrary: “I presume you're tired after the long ride” (Edith Wharton). Presuppose can mean to believe or suppose in advance: It is unrealistic to presuppose a sophisticated knowledge of harmony in a beginning music student. Postulate and posit denote the assertion of the existence, reality, necessity, or truth of something as the basis for reasoning or argument: “We can see individuals, but we can't see providence; we have to postulate it” (Aldous Huxley). To assume is to accept something as existing or being true without proof or on inconclusive grounds: “We must never assume that which is incapable of proof” (G.H. Lewes)

{Jedi: How presumptious! But just to entertain your presumption for a moment - since when did it really matter to you if I was praying for you or not? (Yet another case of "when it suits us to believe something!"}

{Fledgist: Really? Tell me, are you unaccountable for 1 Peter 2 xviii? I haven't seen your condemnations of any of these crimes. I have seen you excuse them.}

Oh yes here we go with your favorite passage of scripture again. But....we can make excuses for Marcus Garvey on the basis of the times in which he lived with regards to his racist sentiments but we absolutely must never take into consideration that the Apostles lived during a period of time when slavery was acceptable, neither must we ever give consideration to the fact that no one can be held accountable for past history which no one no matter how disgusted we are can change. Nor even consider the fact that these Apostles were the persecuted because they brought the message of hope and light to a darkened world, no rather let us focus on the fact that they did not use their new found "powers" to abolish slavery while on the run for their own lives. Oh, and let us not even bring to bear the fact that mankind has passed through many dark periods to the present (which is even questionable today, considering that slavery still exists among our very own people today in parts of Africa). But those of us who would continuously hold on to ignorant (or at least give the appearance of ignorance to the likely gullible reader) arguments for the furtherance of the perpetuation of hatred against Christianity are to be pitied indeed, for while the light of Gods word shines fully in their faces they continue to choose rather the darkness, for as the word so aptly states, they preferred the darkness because their deeds were dark and they feared that the light would reveal them.

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]you mean tell the truth

Your idea of what is truth is very often distorted, a fact proven over and over.

No I mean just what I said....... SPREAD THE HATE[/qb]

Tell us, Jedi, what you would do if you had political power. I'm curious.[/qb]

Tell us Fledgist, what would you do if you had political power?[/qb]

Implement the policy proposed by J.S. Mill in On Liberty. Now answer my question, why don't you. And tell us if 1 Peter 2 xviii is the revealed word of your god.[/qb]

I am not familiar with that work could you elaborate?

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
{Fledgist: Then I presume that you are not 'praying' for me. For that I'm grateful. Of course, since by your belief I'm going straight to hell, I'm interested to see that the thought makes you happy. I'm not surprised.}


{Jedi: Key word PRESUME
Let us see what the dictionary says about presume:}

pre·sume ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-zm)
v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes
v. tr.
To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.

v. intr.
To act overconfidently; take liberties.
To take unwarranted advantage of something; go beyond the proper limits: Don't presume on their hospitality.
To take for granted that something is true or factual; suppose: That's the new assistant, I presume.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English presumen, from Old French presumer, from Late Latin praesmere, from Latin, to anticipate : prae-, pre- + smere, to take; see em- in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pre·sumed·ly (-zmd-l) adv.
pre·sumer n.
Synonyms: presume, presuppose, postulate, posit, assume
These verbs signify to take something for granted or as being a fact. To presume is to suppose that something is reasonable or possible in the absence of proof to the contrary: “I presume you're tired after the long ride” (Edith Wharton). Presuppose can mean to believe or suppose in advance: It is unrealistic to presuppose a sophisticated knowledge of harmony in a beginning music student. Postulate and posit denote the assertion of the existence, reality, necessity, or truth of something as the basis for reasoning or argument: “We can see individuals, but we can't see providence; we have to postulate it” (Aldous Huxley). To assume is to accept something as existing or being true without proof or on inconclusive grounds: “We must never assume that which is incapable of proof” (G.H. Lewes)

{Jedi: How presumptious! But just to entertain your presumption for a moment - since when did it really matter to you if I was praying for you or not? (Yet another case of "when it suits us to believe something!"}

{Fledgist: Because it it would be presumptuous of you so to do. And because I find it offensive.}

{Fledgist: Really? Tell me, are you unaccountable for 1 Peter 2 xviii? I haven't seen your condemnations of any of these crimes. I have seen you excuse them.}

Oh yes here we go with your favorite passage of scripture again. But....we can make excuses for Marcus Garvey on the basis of the times in which he lived with regards to his racist sentiments but we absolutely must never take into consideration that the Apostles lived during a period of time when slavery was acceptable, neither must we ever give consideration to the fact that no one can be held accountable for past history which no one no matter how disgusted we are can change. Nor even consider the fact that these Apostles were the persecuted because they brought the message of hope and light to a darkened world, no rather let us focus on the fact that they did not use their new found "powers" to abolish slavery while on the run for their own lives. Oh, and let us not even bring to bear the fact that mankind has passed through many dark periods to the present (which is even questionable today, considering that slavery still exists among our very own people today in parts of Africa). But those of us who would continuously hold on to ignorant (or at least give the appearance of ignorance to the likely gullible reader) arguments for the furtherance of the perpetuation of hatred against Christianity are to be pitied indeed, for while the light of Gods word shines fully in their faces they continue to choose rather the darkness, for as the word so aptly states, they preferred the darkness because their deeds were dark and they feared that the light would reveal them.[/qb]

In other words you're saying the Bible is not the word of god but a human creation. Okay. For the rest, I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as you.

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

{Fledgist: Because it it would be presumptuous of you so to do. And because I find it offensive.}

So therefore you presumed!

In other words you're saying the Bible is not the word of god but a human creation..

I am not saying any such thing. Yet another presumption However one cannot take out of context the times in which the Apostles lived, nor try to apply modern standards to a time when that was not the norm, it is like crying down the use of caravans in the bible when they could have used trains instead. Your refusal to acknowledge the period of time.....CE/AD 33-69 is astounding, you are truly being disingenuous, and using a faulty claim to bring preposterous charges against Christianity, which as I said to the gullible reader may seem valid instead of what it truly is- FALSE.

Okay. For the rest, I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as you.

Would that you were of the same species as me. We would not be engaging in this discourse, oh no, not at all. But on the other hand I am so glad that I have been saved from the same species as you.

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]{Fledgist: Because it it would be presumptuous of you so to do. And because I find it offensive.}

So therefore you presumed!

{Fledgist: You really should figure out which meaning of the word I used.}

In other words you're saying the Bible is not the word of god but a human creation..

I am not saying any such thing. Yet another presumption However one cannot take out of context the times in which the Apostles lived, nor try to apply modern standards to a time when that was not the norm, it is like

{Fledgist: That's specious and dishonest. Slavery is a crime. That's it. Argument done. Your religion could have condemned slavery, instead slaves are told to submit even to the harshest master. This is evil. It is nothing else. If you believe this, you too are an evil person.}

crying down the use of caravans in the bible when they could have used trains instead. Your refusal to acknowledge the period of time.....CE/AD 33-69 is astounding, you are truly

{Fledgist: If you can't tell the difference between morality and technology, you need help. Tell me, are you actually claiming that morality can change? That there is no fixed standard of right and wrong? Your religion teaches that?}

being disingenuous, and using a faulty claim to bring preposterous charges against Christianity, which as I said to the gullible reader may seem valid instead of what it truly is- FALSE.

{Fledgist: And so you spit on your ancestors. Your 'holy' book justifies a crime. It tells the victims of that crime that they must submit (you do realise that slaves are being taught they must accept being tortured, mutilated, or raped?).

By your argument, be it noted, because abortion is legal here and now it should not be opposed. I expect you never again to complain of it.}

Okay. For the rest, I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as you.

Would that you were of the same species as me.

{Fledgist: You're saying you're not human?}

We would not be engaging in this discourse, oh no, not at all. But on the other hand I am so glad that I have been saved from the same species as you.[/qb]

You're glad that you can justify a crime against humanity?

[wonbyone]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

You know, Fledgist, you surprise me. I am still wondering what do you wish to achieve by starting threads like these. You have informed the board of your qualifications which I am imagining that you achieved by your ability to be analytical. However to constantly harp on why you are not a christian, giving examples of warmongers and criminals who call themselves christians, as the reason why you couldn't embrace christianity make me seriously wonder what is up your sleeve.

{Fledgist: My arm.}

Yes indeed, you do use precise language as you say. The question that another writer posed deserves more than coy remarks. You have stated that "my kind" must give up everything to make the world right in YOUR eyes. Since you specify that it is not my job, my home, my cars or my family that you desire then what is YOUR desire?

You have stated that we must become as you and give up our faith. You claim that if we all give up our faith in God there will be no wrongs committed in the world. Only Christians, Jews and Muslims break laws from what you say. IF you fail, YOU only do so because you cannot shake off vestages of Christianity. That would mean that you always comply with the laws of the land. You never go over the speed limit, always buckle your seat belt, etc. You comply with even the most minute details of law. Somehow I doubt it. Do not blame YOUR failings on Christ's influence. I wonder how that would hold up in a court of law let alone through the eyes of a higher authority?

It would cut through a lot if you would answer the question as to what is "up your sleeve". From what I have read you wish the very soul of the vast majority of Jamaicans as well as Americans and others. As I have stated to you before, I am not for sale and will not relinquish that which I have given to another. Why the crusades?

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb]You know, Fledgist, you surprise me. I am still wondering what do you wish to achieve by starting threads like these. You have informed the board of your qualifications which I am imagining that you achieved by your ability to be analytical. However to constantly harp on why you are not a christian, giving examples of warmongers and criminals who call themselves christians, as the reason why you couldn't embrace christianity make me seriously wonder what is up your sleeve.

{Fledgist: My arm.}

Yes indeed, you do use precise language as you say. The question that another writer posed deserves more than coy remarks. You have stated that "my kind" must give up everything to make the world right in YOUR eyes. Since you specify that it is not my job, my home, my cars or my family that you desire then what is YOUR desire?

{Fledgist: That there be a reduction of evil in the world.}

You have stated that we must become as you and give up our faith. You claim that if we all give up our faith in God there will be no wrongs committed in the world. Only Christians, Jews

{Fledgist: You lie. I have not said that.}

and Muslims break laws from what you say. IF you fail, YOU only do so because you cannot shake off vestages of Christianity. That would mean that

{Fledgist: I have said that.}

you always comply with the laws of the land. You never go over the speed limit, always buckle your seat belt, etc. You comply with even the most minute details of law. Somehow I doubt it. Do

{Fledgist: Please provide proof that I do not comply with the laws of the land.}

not blame YOUR failings on Christ's influence. I wonder how that would hold up in a court of law let alone through the eyes of a higher authority?

{Fledgist: Courts of law require evidence. Why don't you provide some.}

It would cut through a lot if you would answer the question as to what is "up your sleeve".

{Fledgist: I have: my arm. If you don't believe that, that's not my problem.}

From what I have read you wish the very soul of the vast majority of Jamaicans as well as Americans and others. As I have stated to you before, I am not for sale and will not relinquish that which I have given to another. Why the crusades?[/qb]

1 Peter 2 xviii comes to mind. Any religious text that contains such an injunction is evil and nothing but.

[wonbyone]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb]You know, Fledgist, you surprise me. I am still wondering what do you wish to achieve by starting threads like these. You have informed the board of your qualifications which I am imagining that you achieved by your ability to be analytical. However to constantly harp on why you are not a christian, giving examples of warmongers and criminals who call themselves christians, as the reason why you couldn't embrace christianity make me seriously wonder what is up your sleeve.

{Fledgist: My arm.}

Yes indeed, you do use precise language as you say. The question that another writer posed deserves more than coy remarks. You have stated that "my kind" must give up everything to make the world right in YOUR eyes. Since you specify that it is not my job, my home, my cars or my family that you desire then what is YOUR desire?

{Fledgist: That there be a reduction of evil in the world.}

From Tim: Go on. How would you accomplish such a feat? BTW you stated that "my kind" must give up everything that they have to make things right. Does that mean that "my kind" are the evil of the world?

You have stated that we must become as you and give up our faith. You claim that if we all give up our faith in God there will be no wrongs committed in the world. Only Christians, Jews

{Fledgist: You lie. I have not said that.}

From Tim: Absolutely not. You have called for me to relinquish my faith many, many times to right the wrongs.

and Muslims break laws from what you say. IF you fail, YOU only do so because you cannot shake off vestages of Christianity. That would mean that

{Fledgist: I have said that.}

From Tim: So we get back to the idea that only Christians, Muslims and Jews commit wrongs. Or is it simply a phenomenon attributed to you?

you always comply with the laws of the land. You never go over the speed limit, always buckle your seat belt, etc. You comply with even the most minute details of law. Somehow I doubt it. Do

{Fledgist: Please provide proof that I do not comply with the laws of the land.}

From Tim: SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU NEVER BREAK ANY LAWS OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU NEVER GET CAUGHT?

not blame YOUR failings on Christ's influence. I wonder how that would hold up in a court of law let alone through the eyes of a higher authority?

{Fledgist: Courts of law require evidence. Why don't you provide some.}

From Tim: My point exactly. Provide YOUR proofs, Prof.

It would cut through a lot if you would answer the question as to what is "up your sleeve".

{Fledgist: I have: my arm. If you don't believe that, that's not my problem.}

From Tim: Here you go again trying to be coy. You know exactly what the original writer meant. Surely you are educated enough for that.

From what I have read you wish the very soul of the vast majority of Jamaicans as well as Americans and others. As I have stated to you before, I am not for sale and will not relinquish that which I have given to another. Why the crusades?[/qb]

1 Peter 2 xviii comes to mind. Any religious text that contains such an injunction is evil and nothing but.[/qb]

From Tim: OK. My employer is brutal. They hate every single employee equally. They lie. They cheat. They steal. They take glee in causing misery. My job and my God call for me to do my job and to do it with all the joy, the skill and resolve that I can muster. Are you saying that I should give my employers the shaft simply because they are incapable of humane treatment of their employees? Hmm...wonder what would happen to the world economy then if nobody did their job?

What if you had an assistant that you treated with as much contempt as you do the Christians here? Do you think that you would accomplish much? I doubt it.

What if everyone thought that they should not obey civil authorities and did as they pleased? Chaos would certainly break out.

What if my children refused to listen? Would they live to grow old? Probably not.

SO...are we simply to go about doing as we please? Should there be boundries that we are to live with? What is YOUR alternative to 1Peter2:18? Since you do not agree with the passage how would you rewrite it?

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb]You know, Fledgist, you surprise me. I am still wondering what do you wish to achieve by starting threads like these. You have informed the board of your qualifications which I am imagining that you achieved by your ability to be analytical. However to constantly harp on why you are not a christian, giving examples of warmongers and criminals who call themselves christians, as the reason why you couldn't embrace christianity make me seriously wonder what is up your sleeve.

{Fledgist: My arm.}

Yes indeed, you do use precise language as you say. The question that another writer posed deserves more than coy remarks. You have stated that "my kind" must give up everything to make the world right in YOUR eyes. Since you specify that it is not my job, my home, my cars or my family that you desire then what is YOUR desire?

{Fledgist: That there be a reduction of evil in the world.}

From Tim: Go on. How would you accomplish such a feat? BTW you stated that "my kind" must give up everything that they have to make things right. Does that mean that "my kind" are the evil of the world?

You have stated that we must become as you and give up our faith. You claim that if we all give up our faith in God there will be no wrongs committed in the world. Only Christians, Jews

{Fledgist: You lie. I have not said that.}

From Tim: Absolutely not. You have called for me to relinquish my faith many, many times to right the wrongs.

and Muslims break laws from what you say. IF you fail, YOU only do so because you cannot shake off vestages of Christianity. That would mean that

{Fledgist: I have said that.}

From Tim: So we get back to the idea that only Christians, Muslims and Jews commit wrongs. Or is it simply a phenomenon attributed to you?

you always comply with the laws of the land. You never go over the speed limit, always buckle your seat belt, etc. You comply with even the most minute details of law. Somehow I doubt it. Do

{Fledgist: Please provide proof that I do not comply with the laws of the land.}

From Tim: SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU NEVER BREAK ANY LAWS OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU NEVER GET CAUGHT?

not blame YOUR failings on Christ's influence. I wonder how that would hold up in a court of law let alone through the eyes of a higher authority?

{Fledgist: Courts of law require evidence. Why don't you provide some.}

From Tim: My point exactly. Provide YOUR proofs, Prof.

It would cut through a lot if you would answer the question as to what is "up your sleeve".

{Fledgist: I have: my arm. If you don't believe that, that's not my problem.}

From Tim: Here you go again trying to be coy. You know exactly what the original writer meant. Surely you are educated enough for that.

From what I have read you wish the very soul of the vast majority of Jamaicans as well as Americans and others. As I have stated to you before, I am not for sale and will not relinquish that which I have given to another. Why the crusades?[/qb]

1 Peter 2 xviii comes to mind. Any religious text that contains such an injunction is evil and nothing but.[/qb]

From Tim: OK. My employer is brutal. They hate every single employee equally. They lie. They cheat. They steal. They take glee in causing

{Fledgist: You are a slave? How interesting. That passage commands slaves to obey even the worst masters. Now that is disgusting and inhuman.}

misery. My job and my God call for me to do my job and to do it with all the joy, the skill and resolve that I can muster. Are you saying that I

{Fledgist: Your god says to the slave 'endure the worst crimes against you in silence'. That is nothing but evil.}

should give my employers the shaft simply because they are incapable of humane treatment of their employees? Hmm...wonder what would happen to the world economy then if nobody did their job?

{Fledgist: You're deliberately misreading this passage.}

What if you had an assistant that you treated with as much contempt as you do the Christians here? Do you think that you would accomplish much? I doubt it.

What if everyone thought that they should not obey civil authorities and did as they pleased? Chaos would certainly break out.

{Fledgist: So oppressed people should simply bear their oppression. Why don't you get into a time machine and tell that to George Washington.}

What if my children refused to listen? Would they live to grow old? Probably not.

SO...are we simply to go about doing as we please? Should there be boundries that we are to live with? What is YOUR alternative to 1Peter2:18? Since you do not agree with the passage how would you rewrite it?[/qb]

'Slaves rise up and kill your masters' would be a good start.

[wonbyone]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

This thread brings up an interesting point. the KJV, American Standard and Living bible say servant. The NIV version says slave. It is also very easy to take something out of context. The verses that follow explain the reason for verse 18.

Would we call such a shortfall a lie? A mistake? A deliberate deception? I will be kind and call it a mistake not to print the 'rest of the story'.

Just out of curiousity, Fledgist, how many Americans or Jamaicans are slaves? Do not count "mental slavery".

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
Fledgist: Because it it would be presumptuous of you so to do. And because I find it offensive.

Jedi: So therefore you presumed!

Fledgist: You really should figure out which meaning of the word I used.

Jedi: Either ways you cannot read my mind therefore you still presumed .

Fledgist: In other words you're saying the Bible is not the word of god but a human creation.

Jedi: I am not saying any such thing. Yet another presumption However one cannot take out of context the times in which the Apostles lived, nor try to apply modern standards to a time when that was not the norm, it is like

{Fledgist: That's specious and dishonest. Slavery is a crime. That's it. Argument done.

Jedi: Ah, retrospect how sublime. There is nothing remotely specious nor dishonest about the facts, however criminal it may seem now, those were the facts. You cannot take people out of the period in which they lived and apply current codes of conduct or laws to them. Yes laws and codes of conduct do change! morals remain the same, God's morals have never changed, men just never followed them. And I do dare to say what changes have occured over time are due in large part to the enlightenment brought about by CHRISTIANITY!

Fledgist: Your religion could have condemned slavery, instead slaves are told to submit even to the harshest master.

Jedi: Again an argument out of context with what Christianity teaches. Paul one of the forerunners of my religion also said this and I quote:

1 Corinthians 7
20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.

Obviously slavery is viewed as far less of a deterrent from a physical standpoint than from a spiritual one. The message being that the man who is freed spiritually is freed to see the depravity of his physical condition. Therefore the greater weight of slavery is on the mind of the man. FREE YOUR MIND in other words and you will see more clearly to FREE YOUR BODY Or is that too specious for your taste?

Fledgist: This is evil. It is nothing else. If you believe this, you too are an evil person.

Jedi: Well that is the way you view me and I view you so that goes without saying no matter the circumstance. But back to this argument, let us see how the Christian God viewed slavery, here is another passage from the same book the Bible that you claimed "condoned slavery:

Jeremiah 34
16 But now you have turned around and profaned my name; each of you has taken back the male and female slaves you had set free to go where they wished. You have forced them to become your slaves again.
17 "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen. So I now proclaim 'freedom' for you, declares the LORD -'freedom' to fall by the sword, plague and famine. I will make you abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 The men who have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces.

Jedi: Rather harsh words to His own people wouldn't you say, for a God that condoned slavery?

Fledgist: If you can't tell the difference between morality and technology, you need help.

Jedi: Many today would argue that caravans drawn by oxen back then was nothing short of cruelty to animals. I guess it all depends on which 'moral codes' you are debating on. But for the sake of this argument, let me just say that I am trying to point out how ludicrous it is to adapt an ancient culture to our current moral codes of conduct and laws.

Fledgist: Tell me, are you actually claiming that morality can change?

Jedi: God's morals have never changed, as I said above, but man's have, repeatedly. Why, you should know all about that! Afterall isn't it man who sets the moral standards that we follow?

Fledgist: That there is no fixed standard of right and wrong? Your religion teaches that?

Jedi: Is this the same person who argues so vigorously against "absolute truths" speaking here? (Tongue in cheek of course)
Now you know full well what my religion teaches which is the reason why you are so totally against it. ABSOLUTE RIGHT AND WRONG My God is a God of JUSTICE, see the foregoing scripture passage.

Fledgist: And so you spit on your ancestors. Your 'holy' book justifies a crime.
It tells the victims of that crime that they must submit (you do realise that slaves are being taught they must accept being tortured, mutilated, or raped?.

Jedi: (Now here comes the deconstruction of Christianity) Christianity is vehemently opposed to sin in all forms, including the use of carefully crafted lies and utilizing scriptures taken out of context; in order to antagonize, inflame, incite, and garner sympathy and wrath, amongst the gullible readers for the perpetuation of hatred against God's Church.
ANTI-CHRIST decked out in his finest array.... DECEPTION.


Fledgist: By your argument, be it noted, because abortion is legal here and now it should not be opposed. I expect you never again to complain of it.

Jedi: Have you suddenly changed sides on the abortion issue?

A hundred years from now were abortion to be found one of the most hienous crimes against mankind (which I believe it is today, as does the Christian church) - someone might very well say that although Jedi was a Christian she was also pro-abortion because abortion was acceptable during her time and she didnot go out and bomb abortion clinics or stone pro-abortionists. Which is to say because a person lived in a time when a thing was acceptable, that makes that person accountable for it, because the person did not go out and commit violent acts to prove their utter rejection of that thing. The Apostles sought to further freedom from slavery of the worst kind.....slavery to sin which is the root of all kinds of slavery.

Fledgist: You're glad that you can justify a crime against humanity?

Jedi: Slavery is a crime against humanity, and mankind has no one to blame but himself for this. But it took hundreds of years to enlighten the darkened consciences of mankind to this fact. A key player in this enlightenment has been and continues to be the Christian church with all its faulty players and dim witted proselytizers it still stands the only light in a dark universe.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

The funny thing about this back and forth, with all lies that Judeo-Christian use to cover their crimes. Even if you minus the examples that Fledge brings up and just operate on known and proven crimes that were committed and are still committed by the various off shoots of these religions, there would no be enough gallows to hang the guilty. What makes it worse though, is that all of this is sanctioned, or so they claimed, by God, and the Bible!

It does not matter whether one version of the Bible says Slaves or the other says Servants, the charge of the Slave Masters were to exert the superior intellect over the conquered, this was sanctioned by the church.

If I am Fledg I would leave off citing specific examples, I once said in this very forum that I would surely not like to meet most of these holy rollers in that frequent this forum.

The so-called Peace that existed came about after I was raked over the coals, no one remember that, no it is Fledg`s turn.
These religious fanatics here are nothing but a set of Hypocrites and I truly wonder just how much sleep they get at night.
Of course after 2000+ years of established Bloodshed and hypocrisy I am pretty sure it is not just going to just die off quietly....Peace anyway!