Another reason I am not a Christian

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb][QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
Fledgist: Either it is the eternal work of god, or it is a temporally-bound human creation.

Jedi: Who is disputing that it isn't the eternal work of God? Clearly your beef is with God isn't it?

Fledgist: You can't have it both ways. I'm applying timeless moral standards:

Jedi: And could you kindly show me where I even suggested having it both ways, yet another presumption

Fledgist:human beings are ends, not means. That's all.

Jedi: Talk about specious reasoning.

Fledgist: I'm applying a universal moral standard. Slavery was wrong 2000 years ago, it's wrong today. Murder was wrong 2000 years ago, it's wrong today.

Jedi: Go back and tell it to your fellows 2000 years ago. Slavery was a human institution.

Fledgist: Does screaming make something true?
Where is the condemnation of slavery in the Bible?

Jedi: EVERYWHERE-but you're too blind to see it.

Fledgist:The Enlightenment, it seems pretty clear, involved the overcoming of superstitions like Christianity.

Jedi: Is that why you are so dark in you understanding?

Fledgist: In other words, if you are oppressed just accept it. This is the morality of the slavemaster, nothing else. No decent person could accept this are moral.

Jedi: I know many oppressed in this modern day and age who willingly enslave themselves for a paycheck, but jumping ship is not always expedient especially when finding another slavemaster to feed you is so hard to come by.
It is so easy to look back in RETROSPECT from the warmth and comfort of where ever you are and decry accepting oppressive circumstances, when you were not the one whose derriere would likely get beaten to a pulp, shot or hanged. No one was happy with slavery not then, not now but there was a way out and violent opposition seldom works especially when you are on the opposite end holding the blade of the sword.

Fledgist: In other words, focus on the delusion rather than the reality. This is no different from the 'freedom' obtained by intoxication.

Jedi: See now this is where the difference comes in. Are you a slave today Fledgist? Well let me just say this to you, our ancestors prayed night and day and their "eyes never saw, nor did their ears hear, nor could their minds fathom" the level of freedom that YOU are enjoying today, a freedom that has been so perverted that now you can spit in their faces and their earnest faith in the God who promised them this, and brought it to pass. But as I said you are blind and you will never comprehend the power of those things because they are hidden from eyes.

Fledgist: My mind is free, thanks. Yours doesn't seem to be.

Jedi: No it isn't, your mind is far from free. You live in constant torment, that is why you are here forever seeking and not finding, forever acquiring knowledge of the Holy and not understanding, so you resort to boxing with God.

Jeremiah 34
16 But now you have turned around and profaned my name; each of you has taken back the male and female slaves you had set free to go where they wished. You have forced them to become your slaves again.

Fledgist: And this means simply that having made a promise, they've gone back on it. It does not condemn slavery as an institution. Try again.

Jedi: Do you honestly get the sense that God approves of slavery from this? I believe you are being disingenuous as usual.

17 "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen. So I now proclaim 'freedom' for you, declares the LORD -'freedom' to fall by the sword, plague and famine. I will make you abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 The men who have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces.

{Fledgist: And where in this 'covenant' is slavery condemned?}

Jedi: Right here "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen. So I now proclaim 'freedom' for you, declares the LORD -'freedom' to fall by the sword, plague and famine.

Jedi: Rather harsh words to His own people wouldn't you say, for a God that condoned slavery?

Fledgist: The harsh words, such as they are, are not about slavery.

Jedi: Again being disingenuous.

Fledgist: If you can't tell the difference between morality and technology, you need help.

Jedi: Many today would argue that caravans drawn by oxen back then was nothing short of cruelty to animals. I guess it all depends on which 'moral codes' you are debating on. But for the sake of

Fledgist: Red herring alert.

Jedi: Of course, run for 'Red Herring cover.'

Jedi: let me just say that I am trying to point out how ludicrous it is to adapt an ancient culture to our current moral codes of conduct and laws.

Fledgist: Hmm. If that's your argument -- and you are, thereby, making the Bible a historically-bound work. Then it is not relevant to today.

Jedi: That is my argument and it absolutely doesnot make the Bible a historically bound work.
The Bible is LIVING history, and as such is very relevant to today but that is not the argument here. Slavery was acceptable during those times. PERIOD. The bible does not condone slavery anywhere. God hated slavery.

Fledgist: In any case, as I've pointed out, I'm applying a universal moral standard.
Slavery is a crime. Revolt against slavery is defence against that crime.

Jedi: Slavery has been abolished. Um! this is getting revolting.

Fledgist: Tell me, are you actually claiming that morality can change?

Jedi: God's morals have never changed, as I said above, but man's have, repeatedly. Why, you should know all about that! Afterall isn't it man who sets the moral standards that we follow?

Fledgist: DWL. Morals derive from reason.

Jedi: Precisely, there is all your answer in a nutshell, SLAVERY: a derivative of mans reasoning.
Need I say more?

Fledgist: That there is no fixed standard of right and wrong? Your religion teaches that?

Jedi: Is this the same person who argues so vigorously against "absolute truths" speaking here? (Tongue in cheek of course)
Now you know full well what my religion teaches which is the reason why you are so totally against it. ABSOLUTE RIGHT AND WRONG My God is a God of JUSTICE, see the foregoing scripture passage.

Fledgist: I asked you a question. If there is absolute right and wrong, you cannot say 'something was acceptable in the past and is not acceptable now'.

Jedi: To say something is acceptable is not to say that it is morally correct. Such as abortion or homosexuality. I never said that slavery was morally correct, I said it was accepted then.

Fledgist: So would you kindly tell me why you are arguing that right and wrong are relative?

Jedi: Those are your words, I never said any such thing. However it is something that you would argue at the right occasion.

Fledgist: That is what you're doing by stating that they are historically-bound.

Jedi: It was acceptable then it is not now. A statement of fact. I didnot say it was right then nor am I saying that it is right now. Do not put words into my mouth.

Fledgist:So, either you don't know what you're saying or you're a flaming hypocrite. Which is it?

Jedi: I do know what I am saying, as well you also know what it is I am saying. In fact I couldn't be more clear. Your pretention is only evidence of your refusal to reason both sides and ultimately that only stems from your hypocrisy.

Jedi: (Now here comes the deconstruction of Christianity) Christianity is vehemently opposed to sin in all forms, including the use of carefully crafted lies and utilizing scriptures taken out of context; in order to

Fledgist: LOL! It looks like you've run out of argument here.

Jedi: LOL! You wish.

Jedi: antagonize, inflame, incite, and garner sympathy and wrath, amongst the gullible readers for the perpetuation of hatred against God's Church.

Fledgist: Could we have some coherence, please?

Jedi: What you can't read ?

Fledgist: I find you hateful, ridiculous, and contemptible, but

Jedi: Save it for the next time you look at your SELF in the mirror and no buts.

Fledgist: I perpetuate nothing, I merely comment.

Jedi: To a very large audience.

ANTI-CHRIST decked out in his finest array.... DECEPTION.


Fledgist: When in doubt, resort to invective?

Jedi: There was never anything I was more sure of in my life.

Fledgist: By your argument, be it noted, because abortion is legal here and now it should not be opposed. I expect you never again to complain of it.

Jedi: Have you suddenly changed sides on the abortion issue?

Fledgist: No. Apparently you have a hard time understanding what you read.

Jedi: Not at all, however you seem to have a hard time spotting sarcasm in writing.

A hundred years from now were abortion to be found one of the most hienous crimes against mankind (which I believe it is today, as does the Christian church) - someone might very well say that although Jedi was a Christian she was also pro-abortion because abortion was acceptable during her time and she didnot go out and bomb abortion clinics or stone pro-abortionists. Which is to say because a person lived in a time when a thing was acceptable, that makes that person accountable for it, because the person did not go out and commit violent acts to prove their utter rejection of that thing. The Apostles sought to further freedom from slavery of the worst kind.....slavery to sin which is the root of all kinds of slavery.

Fledgist: Nowhere does the Bible state that slavery is wrong, that turning human beings into property is a crime. That's the thing.

Jedi: ***{Hmmm! neither abortion or homosexuality I have heard said - off to the side a bit} ***

And you refuse to follow the theme of the whole work of the bible which is to abolish slavery of all kinds through the redemption of mankind from sin.

THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS A PROCLAMATION OF EMANCIPATION BUT YOU ARE EITHER TOO BLIND OR TOO DISINGENUOUS, OR BOTH TO SEE IT.

Fledgist: I said nothing about the 'apostles' going out and freeing slaves. Do try to make your analogies reasonable.

Jedi: You have said repeatedly that they could have and should have used their sphere of influence to free the slaves, you have condemned Paul for returning the slave Onesimus to his master, Peter for telling slaves to obey their masters, and stated on this very thread that they should have told them instead "Slaves slay your masters."

Fledgist: You're glad that you can justify a crime against humanity?

Jedi: Slavery is a crime against humanity, and mankind has no one to blame but himself for this. But it took hundreds of years to enlighten the darkened consciences of mankind to this fact. A key player in this enlightenment has been and continues to be the Christian church with all its faulty players and dim witted proselytizers it still stands the only light in a dark universe.

Fledgist: Ah yes. I suppose that is why when the Christian church completely dominated Europe it was the Dark Ages.

Jedi: Please don't spread lies, go back and read your history books more carefully, kindly observe who ruled the Christian church at the time. But ah yes, thank God for the Reformation....God has seen to it that mankind would not, could not, and will never be able to spoil His ultimate plan of salvation for those who are willing to heed His call to come .

[Israelites]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person. After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

Funny, I remember it as well. Interesting, isn't it that the believers are the only one remembering this? Selective memory loss perhaps? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]....
You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Right I have a few on my hard drive already....and I should have been smart enough a longtime ago to save the ones directed towards me by some of the same participants in the this....orgy of Burning Unbelievers at the Stake .....What happen Church let out?[/qb]

Not to fear, it swings both ways trust me. I have a few burn scars myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

The enslaving of the minds of thousands of people in Jamaica and the interferance with socio-economic strategies that might aid developement.



Well here it is folks for those who were wonderning what the hidden agenda was.
Christianity interfering with political idealism in Jamaica.

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Fledgist, how many times are you going to rehash this topic? We've all heard what you've said ie the Bible condones slavery, and since the Bible is the foundation of Christianity, then Christianity in itself is a bad thing, because of what the Bible stated. That is logical if the Bible didn't demonstrate what Jesus the Christ stated. Love thy neighbour as thyself." We are quoting from the same source.

{Fledgist: He also said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. The Bible is an extraordinarily self-contradictory work. However, what bothers me, as the descendant of slaves, is that slaves are commanded to obedience. It also bothers me that people can claim that the Bible is both the eternal word of god and historically-bound.}

This command alone neutralises whatever else might be stated about slaves obeying their masters. If this was a good thing, then why is it that it so abhorred as the most despicable crime that one human being can perpetrate on another?

{Fledgist: How does it neutralise it?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that slavery is wrong. Let's be clear on that. There are several passages which state that slaves *must* obey their masters. This puts those of our forebears who had the guts to stand up and fight their oppression in the wrong with this god of yours.}

One doesn't or didn't need the Bible to tell them that this was just pure wickedness and criminality regardless of what was stated during those times.

Who owned slaves in the Bible and in Africa and in the West? The powerful. Slavemasters didn't need the Bible to tell slaves to obey their masters. They used the whip and the chain and

{Fledgist: Maybe they didn't need it, but it certainly provided ideological support for social injustice. Why do you think that those 18th century planters wanted our forebears Christianised? Precisely so that they could internalise the divine commandment of obedience to even the harshest master.}

other methods of torture to bring slaves into submission. So the argument that slaves were cajoled or sweet-talked into obeying their masters by using bibical quotes just doesn't make any sense.

{Fledgist: It makes plenty of sense. It is cheaper to get the slave to keep himself/herself enslaved.}

Picture the slavemasters saying to the slaves: "Now dears, it is alright for us to hold you in bondage, for the Bible told us to tell you to obey your masters. " Laaawd; what is dis?"

{Fledgist: That's close to what happened. The preachers came and told the slaves that there would be pie in the sky by and by, and in the meantime obey bakra massa and cut the cane.}

And any slave who did believe this could have been suffering post-traumatic-stress syndrome (which many of us still are until today) where their thinking and judgement becomes clouded to the extent that they could believe anything. Chat 'bout. Other than that, only a stupid slave would buy this, and obviously that was not the case, considering the number of slave revolts and runaway slaves.

{Fledgist: Jamaica is exceptional in having a very high rate of slave revolts. You might want to consider that Christianisation was a response to slave uprisings (you might also want to consider the curious case of the mass conversion of Accompong Town), and it sought to subvert the slaves by providing an ideological justification for obedience. You might also want to consider why traditional African religious and magical practices were outlawed (and some still are). Whips and chains work, but it is much cheaper if the slave carries a slavedriver in his or her head -- one that says god with provide an eternal reward, and in the meantime this suffering must be endured.}

I honestly believe that this so-called argument used by atheists and haters of christianity, christians and Jesus, is just looking a copout.

{Fledgist: Not in the least. See what I write above.}

If one asks me, slavemasters used that line about obeying their masters, to satisfy a guilty conscience. They knew it was wrong but to alleviate their guilt, they focused on it, rather than taking personal responsibility for their reprehensible wickedness.

{Fledgist: It is not that easy to find guilty consciences among slaveowners. Towards the end, some were uncomfortable with the institution -- but not because they owned human beings -- out of fear that another Haiti might transpire.

Christianity provided a means for the slaveowner to justify his/her ownership of human beings (their 'souls' would be saved), while keeping the slave in line (after slavery on earth there would be joy in heaven).}

You still haven't addressed slavery under Moslem religion, or modern day slavery in Africa among many who are not christians; black on black slavery. Why not? Is it so ingrained in the culture that it is impossible to eradicate, or the slavemasters are too powerful? Why haven't you addressed the caste system in India? Is this of christian origin? Although this is not tantamount to slavery as experienced by blacks across the diaspora, it is IMHO a social outrage, which is embodied in old culture the way bibically described slavery was.

{Fledgist: I am pointing out the role Christianity has played in the perpetuation of inhumanity. The Quran does not condemn slavery, indeed it permits the owner of female slaves to keep them in concubinage. That is just as reprehensible. But my forebears and yours were not hauled across the Atlantic by Muslim slave traders.

The Indian caste system ensures that some people have permanently degraded status. That, too, is inhuman. But the issue is not general inhumanity, it is why *I* am not a Christian.}

If you wish that your argument to appear unbiased and impartial, then you cannot negate that these must appear in the big picture...and last but not least if one is a true christian....here goes that word again, one who sees God in his fellowmen, as the Bible teaches, then there is no way in hell that he/she/they would enslave others. One either is or isn't. In the same way that you say that some Christians are hypocrites, then I am saying that any slave master who owned slaves while masquerading as a christian is/was a bloody hypocrite.[/qb]

Curious then, that those true Christians Peter and Paul had no trouble with slavery.

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person. After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

Not being a Christian, I have no need to justify a distate for oppression and those who provide the ideological underpinnings for it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]The enslaving of the minds of thousands of people in Jamaica and the interferance with socio-economic strategies that might aid developement.



Well here it is folks for those who were wonderning what the hidden agenda was.
Christianity interfering with political idealism in Jamaica.[/qb]

...And social transformation...!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]....
You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Right I have a few on my hard drive already....and I should have been smart enough a longtime ago to save the ones directed towards me by some of the same participants in the this....orgy of Burning Unbelievers at the Stake .....What happen Church let out?[/qb]

Not to fear, it swings both ways trust me. I have a few burn scars myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Well the the one who pulls the lever often has blood stains on his/her cape....Peace

[neutral]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
Not to fear, it swings both ways trust me. I have a few burn scars myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/QB]

wow!!!now the argument is getting steamy [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[servant]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

"And with the entrails of the last of the priests let us strangle the last of the kings"

Mutty, in fairness to Fledgist, these are not his words. But given the historical events with which they are associated, his choosing to have repeated them here was interesting to say the least.

But who cares. Hate speech is now protected in this forum.

[rufian]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

You mean free speech servant.
Why christians always a try fe defend wa de bible say about slavery, captivity and war??? Even though christians, especially on this board always overlook the old testament and focus on the new, the most of the slavery messages are to be found in the new testament. So I guess these are the laws that Jesus came to fullfil

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]....
You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Right I have a few on my hard drive already....and I should have been smart enough a longtime ago to save the ones directed towards me by some of the same participants in the this....orgy of Burning Unbelievers at the Stake .....What happen Church let out?[/qb]

Not to fear, it swings both ways trust me. I have a few burn scars myself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/qb]

Well the the one who pulls the lever often has blood stains on his/her cape....Peace[/qb]

Touche'

[Mutty]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Servant I knew they were not his. What I recall was some debate over him using it with some hint of justification as in agreement.

Some priests could use a good disembowelment but that's the evil in me speaking and NOT the Bible or God suggesting I go out and do it.

[Fledgist]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]I remember that thread as clearly as I remember the one about bludgeoning all Christians who have contributed by their belief in Christ to the homophobia that led one young man to bludgeon another. You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Your memory is a bit faulty. I expressed the wish that all those who contributed to homophobia might meet the same fate as the young man who was bludgeoned on the Morehouse College campus. It is apparently 'hate' to say this, but not hate to create an atmosphere in which people can be battered when suspected of homosexuality.

In any case, what harm is it to you if someone else is homosexual? What injury does it cause you?

[jedi]

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]I remember that thread as clearly as I remember the one about bludgeoning all Christians who have contributed by their belief in Christ to the homophobia that led one young man to bludgeon another. You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Your memory is a bit faulty. I expressed the wish that all those who contributed to homophobia might meet the same fate as the young man who was bludgeoned on the Morehouse College campus.

Jedi: Clearly you indicated "all those Christians who".

It is apparently 'hate' to say this, but not hate to create an atmosphere in which people can be battered when suspected of homosexuality.

Jedi: Hence you targeted Christianity as the culprit.

In any case, what harm is it to you if someone else is homosexual? What injury does it cause you?[/qb]

RED HERRING!!!......this is not about homosexuality at all it is about your promotion of violent acts against "all who are Christians" repeatedly shown on this forum.