Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Andronian:
[qb]

there is a much wider audience to communicate inm Fremch

Well all a wi fi jus ki back wi mout now an jus staat learn chinese. More people speak chinese than any other language so if you want to communicate with the most people...learn chinese.

and there is a greater repository pof knowledge assessible in French than there is in Kreole. how ould you like to chose to learm either of those language as a tool of economics.or music,or culture,ot hjistory,whay about geogtaphy. Do you think you could finmd as large a volume of texts written in Kreole in iether of those areas,as you could find in french?

This wasn't always the case for French. In fact, if latin coservatives had their way it would never have been the case. Hell, even english was once viewed as being unsuitable for expressing the knowledge that can be expressed in French.

There's no intrinsic property of any language that makes it superior to any other. They are always capable of expressing anything the speakers wish to express. These evaluations are usually based on money, politics, racism, social status etc. Since the people who speak creole languages in the caribbean (like the hatians) are usually poor and relatively powerless their languages are viewed with the same contempt the people are viewed with.

Your first language is not something you're formally taught. You almost inherit it from hearing people around you speak it. So if Hatians speak Kreole, they ought to be literate in it and facilities of the state should be made available in it. It's kind of twisted to say: your language is bad, here is a better one....lol, when it has been serving the people for centuries! Reminds me of what the slave masters did to the Africans...

The advantage of learning a new language is to communicate with people currently outside of your realm of mutual comprehensibility. That's the advantage of knowing english. That's why I'm learning Spanish, not because English and Patois have some expressive deficiencies. Therefore, I don't see how officially recognizing and supporting a language that we already speak in, sing in, perform plays in and recite poems in can be a bad thing. [/qb]

Not one of your explaniation give ant strength to your argumant.
None of them dve delt with the 2 statements i mnade about the superioroty of labguage,and what make it so.
The pionts that you need to afress are the anility to communicate to a wider demography in commerce,and the abillity to access a greater repository of knowledge.
Jamaica do not have the money to get inor any widenong of a language acceptance for the egocentricities of people. It just barely have enough to educate it's children to achieve their greatest potential.
Rhe French was a wealthy abd powerful Empire when it's language was widelh siepersed.
Jamaica can not eve pay it's way.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Incidentally my child is Bi-lingual. as a matter of factshe attended Montesori in K to junior school,abd she uhderstand patois.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

This is very childish. Why would a language that is as widely used even be included in this conversation.
How many countries speak "Chinese"?

Well, you ascribe some languages superiority based on how many people speak them so Chinese wins!

Not one of your explaniation give ant strength to your argumant.
None of them dve delt with the 2 statements i mnade about the superioroty of labguage,and what make it so.
The pionts that you need to afress are the anility to communicate to a wider demography in commerce,and the abillity to access a greater repository of knowledge.

I never stated that knowing that language of power isn't advantageous (and that language might change by the way, could be chinese in the next 100 years!) but I don't think people should trade in their own identity just for economic gain. I am for official recognition of Jamaica's bilingualism. You weren't in favor of that and I disagreed with THAT position.

Besides, anything that can be written in one language can have their ideas expressed in another. Any language that can be spoken can be represented in writing. English is the language of learning and literacy in Jamaica because we make it so. By denying patois official status we make it impossible for it to assume some of the roles currently occupied by english. The same way that Romance Languages wrested control from Latin in Europe, Patois seems to be gaining greater acceptance in Jamaica.

I mean, India was a former British colony that is now doing quite well. Most Indians I know, know both english and their native tongues which they don't hesitate to speak when conversing with each other. Doesn't seem to heurt them. In fact I read an article suggesting that bilingual people are smarter becuase of the constant mental gymnastics they have to do express ideas in the different languages.

By denying patois we're essentially making Jamaica no-ligual because many people don't have a 100% grasp of english and patois is not an 'official' language despite the fact that almost everyone speaks it.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

By denying patois we're essentially making Jamaica no-ligual because many people don't have a 100% grasp of english and patois is not an 'official' language despite the fact that almost everyone speaks it.


Jamaica has successfully imparted patois to it's citiozens for decades without it being recognized as equal to English.
Even in English only countries Englich is not a great percentage of citizens do not have 100% grasp of the language.
What is rhe benefit to Jamaicans that they habe patois recognized?

So that they have an identity,as you stated?
So are you suggesting that Jamaicans dpo not have any identity at presenr,since patois is not and has never been recognized?
Is Jamaica currently no-lingual? Since english is not and will never ne universally understood,there or even in England!!

[neochin]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

have you ever been beaten for speaking patois? you know how many parents beat dem children for speaking patois? BUT how many pickney get beat for speaking english? yu really need to leggo offa dis uptown mentality and overstand the reality of life. patois is viewed as trash by most jamaicans, even those that speak it. self-hatred is only overcome by legitimatizing the self. full time we come out of this slavery, classist, racist mentality. patois is a language. patois is the major spoken language of jamaica. so what if we learn english in school? the reality is a good portion of the people's mother-tongue is afro-english. you try to teach a person in country or from a garrison while speaking the queen's language... see how far you get

[neochin]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

how many times have you heard?

"speak properly!"

as if patois was some illigitimate dirty step-child of a thing. as far as i'm concerned, patois is not better or worse. it is simply different.

shouldn't it be: "please, speak english right now."

do portuguese tell themselves to "speak proper spanish?" so why should something that came from slaves be treated as second class?

it's no different than those that say: "you have good hair" as if curly hair was difficient in some respect. it cover yu head. so how is it any "worse."

the only reason patois has been illegitimized for so long is because of the mental slavery that forces us to say that what is african is not good enough. we can't outrun our mental chains.

from a logical standpoint, i understand why english should be taught. but, what's bad about having one class dealing with the grammer of patois and how it differs from english? half of the people out there don't even really know how english is different. what's bad about having patois be legally called a language. my lord. dem time deh di patois duppy-dem oulda tek ova and di whole island would be corrupted by flithy patois overnight...soon jamaica would be haiti. hahahaha.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Tanks neochin...a dat mi a se.

Wi have statue a naked piipl a penis paak claim se wi fi 'emancipate wiself from mental slavery' an wi fraid fi legitimize the language whe 90% a jamaicans speak.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

By the way, di day wi figet patois (not dat it gwein apn) is di day pantomime, reggae, Miss Lou, wi folk songs, oral Jamaican stories die as we know them. Language is an integral part of any culture and should be accepted as such in Jamaica.

[barosa]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Original quotes by Andronian:

Wi have statue a naked piipl a penis paak claim se wi fi 'emancipate wiself from mental slavery' an wi fraid fi legitimize the language whe 90% a jamaicans speak.

It's interested that you should mentioned "penis park" I for one was never in support of that "art" foisted on the Jamaican people. Why would we need sculptures of naked bodies to commemorate "emancipation"... If they were thinking, having the inscriptions written in PATWA would be a step along the way.

By the way, di day wi figet patois (not dat it gwein apn) is di day pantomime, reggae, Miss Lou, wi folk songs, oral Jamaican stories die as we know them. Language is an integral part of any culture and should be accepted as such in Jamaica.

I think in due course, PATWA will be recognized as our local language. Educational institutions would have to have to play a part in its structure and legitimization.

-----------------
We shall see but a little way if we require to understand what we see : Henry David Thoreau

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

It's interested that you should mentioned "penis park" I for one was never in support of that "art" foisted on the Jamaican people. Why would we need sculptures of naked bodies to commemorate "emancipation"... If they were thinking, having the inscriptions written in PATWA would be a step along the w

An yu know se mi no really have a problem wid it. Mi only call it 'penis paak' fi joke. Although mi neva eva si it in person so...

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

here is a reason for recognising patois:

many patwa speakers are convinced that they are speaking correct english. if the distinction is made from early on what constitutes patois and what constitutes good english then we can make the step towards teaching jamaicans how to really speak standard english.

english is by no means an "international language." it does not help you much in south america, central america, most of africa, or most of asia for that matter. the europeans have a sick obsession with the english language. the teutones for example are ruining their own languages in that they make no effort to find their own language equivalents of marketing phrases or scientific terms used in the english language. they toss out perfectly good words out of their own language to substitute them for the "hipper" and "cooler" english words:

in German:
Lifestyle instead of Lebensart
Basement instead of Kellergeschoss
Recycling instead of Wiederverwertung
Cheers instead of Prost
relaxen instead of ausruhen

german speakers receive phone bills with items in english (eg. call-by-call). products are marketed to them in english. in one german supermarket "body bags" were being sold at a discounted price. they believe the "body bag" is a some kind of fashionable bag you wear strapped around your waist and have no idea that the term already exists in english and means a bag for storing corpses. the germans invent words that seem like english that do not even exist in the language we speak! ok, i've digressed.

in switzerland, the german speakers there in the professional world or casually among one another all speak their various schwyzertüütsch dialects. of course, they face a similar situation where it is required by law that instruction in the school be given in standard german. there is no standard orthography for the language. there it is not an official language but the difference is that they do not denigrate their dialects. it is recognised as part of their heritage and the dialect is moreso respected than standard high german!

back to patois:
how many jamaicans have we heard trying to speak standard english and end up speaking like this:

"i take sick yesterday"
"did you just buy the flowerspot?"
"when are you going to foreign?"

the students may learn what is correct english pronunciation but they are clueless as far as understanding that a difference in syntax exists between patois and english. it is also this difference in syntax which differentiates english and patois as separate languages.

if you want to know what is colonial mentality:
colonial mentality is the fact that judges in jamaica still wear these funny looking wigs!

what is my position?

patois is a dialect of the english language but in and of itself is a language (a vehicle for humans to communicate verbally and often, though not necessarily, in a written form).

all standard languages were dialects. the difference is that with political or religious backing they became recognised as standard.

patois deserves to be accorded respected. many europeans i have come across are enthralled with our language. they don't know where to learn it or have no access to any serious reading materials though they would love to learn the language. perhaps we should start marketing our language and making didactic material available to those who want to learn it for a cost?

[neochin]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

"when are you going to foreign?"

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] it's funny. i never even realised foreign was only an adjective and not a noun until now. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Excellent post draino! I know the French have actually taken some steps to arrest 'anglicization' of their language.

patois deserves to be accorded respected. many europeans i have come across are enthralled with our language.

Indeed, I have also found people from Asia that like the Jamaican language. It's probably our most influential national product. Where other languages were spread by military force, ours will be spread by its sheer appeal. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by draino:
[qb] here is a reason for recognising patois:

many patwa speakers are convinced that they are speaking correct english. if the distinction is made from early on what constitutes patois and what constitutes good english then we can make the step towards teaching jamaicans how to really speak standard english.

english is by no means an "international language." it does not help you much in south america, central america, most of africa, or most of asia for that matter. the europeans have a sick obsession with the english language. the teutones for example are ruining their own languages in that they make no effort to find their own language equivalents of marketing phrases or scientific terms used in the english language. they toss out perfectly good words out of their own language to substitute them for the "hipper" and "cooler" english words:

in German:
Lifestyle instead of Lebensart
Basement instead of Kellergeschoss
Recycling instead of Wiederverwertung
Cheers instead of Prost
relaxen instead of ausruhen

german speakers receive phone bills with items in english (eg. call-by-call). products are marketed to them in english. in one german supermarket "body bags" were being sold at a discounted price. they believe the "body bag" is a some kind of fashionable bag you wear strapped around your waist and have no idea that the term already exists in english and means a bag for storing corpses. the germans invent words that seem like english that do not even exist in the language we speak! ok, i've digressed.

in switzerland, the german speakers there in the professional world or casually among one another all speak their various schwyzertüütsch dialects. of course, they face a similar situation where it is required by law that instruction in the school be given in standard german. there is no standard orthography for the language. there it is not an official language but the difference is that they do not denigrate their dialects. it is recognised as part of their heritage and the dialect is moreso respected than standard high german!

back to patois:
how many jamaicans have we heard trying to speak standard english and end up speaking like this:

"i take sick yesterday"
"did you just buy the flowerspot?"
"when are you going to foreign?"

the students may learn what is correct english pronunciation but they are clueless as far as understanding that a difference in syntax exists between patois and english. it is also this difference in syntax which differentiates english and patois as separate languages.

if you want to know what is colonial mentality:
colonial mentality is the fact that judges in jamaica still wear these funny looking wigs!

what is my position?

patois is a dialect of the english language but in and of itself is a language (a vehicle for humans to communicate verbally and often, though not necessarily, in a written form).

all standard languages were dialects. the difference is that with political or religious backing they became recognised as standard.

patois deserves to be accorded respected. many europeans i have come across are enthralled with our language. they don't know where to learn it or have no access to any serious reading materials though they would love to learn the language. perhaps we should start marketing our language and making didactic material available to those who want to learn it for a cost? [/qb]

Is,nt it strange that all these developed countries are eveoving their language little by lirrle to english,while you arer using it as an example why Jamaica should teach patois in schools. In other words Jamaicans are the only really smart ones in the planet, or they should act as if they are.
Wht is every other country getting more immersed in English while we are encoutaging out educators to get us more immersed in a language that only 3-6 million Jamaicans speak?
So that we can develope self esteem?
Of being in demand and having your own unique language that nobody else speak,I wonder which would imprkve a people's self esteem!!

[Abuxxp]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

I think dump patwa and english and learn Mandarin.