Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

So hwta the 'wretched speaking' Jamaicans can't learn to speak English fluently?
whoy would you need to import english speaking foreigners,if you think the jamaicans are capable of learning to speak English fluently/
Are you suggesting that Jamaicans are so slow??
Only patois they can learn properly?

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] So hwta the 'wretched speaking' Jamaicans can't learn to speak English fluently?
whoy would you need to import english speaking foreigners,if you think the jamaicans are capable of learning to speak English fluently/
Are you suggesting that Jamaicans are so slow??
Only patois they can learn properly? [/qb]

Way to [deliberately] miss the point.

First YOU claim that if patois is made official Jamaicans gwein all of a sudden figet bout english.

Then you a put word inna mi mout se Jamaicans kyaahn juggle two language when the very opposite has been the thrust of MY argument here.

(I've said that recognition of patois is better than pretending it doesn't exist as it will facilitate literacy in both languages. As it is wi a go paat way wid di two a dem)

Then you are criticizing me for it (suggesting that I believe Jamaicans are stupid) when it has essentially been YOUR position that Jamaicans would not be able to handle two official languages (the 'easy' one losing out to the 'hard' one according to you).

Mi give up Dud!

As far as I am concerned patois is part of my birthright as a Jamaican and I want to see the silly disdain surrounding it (ironically, mostly among Jamaicans!) continue to evaporate. If you want to get rid of patois you'll have to import english people and kill off di res a wi. But of course, you can have Jamaicans that know both Patois and English...all Spanish and French too. I've studied all 4 languages at some time.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Education by all means possible

Jamaica Observer Editorial
Saturday, October 15, 2005



This newspaper is in absolute agreement with Ms Kay Osbourne, the general manager of Television Jamaica, that if Jamaica is to have a future in the world in the age of globalisation, then its citizens have to be educated in a global language.

That language, as Ms Osbourne pointed out, happens to be English. It is the language of business and commerce. It is the language of science and technology.

And in today's world, comparative advantage is no longer measured primarily by the possession of natural resources - except, perhaps if that resource happens to be oil - or even proximity to markets. Although these advantages do help.

What is more important is the mastery of technology and the capacity to manipulate information and data. For, as is increasingly apparent, the convergence of information and technology is demolishing old notions of borders and creating new concepts of the nation state and the marketplace.

Indeed, as Ms Osbourne said, "Jamaica belongs to something called the universe and the language of that universe is English".
Yet, as much as we agree with Ms Osbourne, we are not so sure that we share her certitude about the route to get to that place in the universe. That is if we interpret Ms Osbourne correctly as saying that Jamaican patois has no place in the Jamaican classroom.

We must confess that we have not always been as willing to entertain the thought as we are now. Indeed, we, in the past, might have rejected the idea out of hand.

However, we, like many other Jamaicans, have accepted that Jamaica's education is in crisis and demands new and creative solutions to rescue it, and our future, from oblivion.

In other words, we are open to new ways, new ideas, for the delivery of education. We are willing to experiment. For in any event, it is the spirit of inquiry that leads to experimentation and the generation of new knowledge. It is the bedrock of empiricism.

The point we make is that we, and others, have for too long held the belief that English, as is used in literature and even science and technology, is the primary language of Jamaica.

We may understand many things when spoken in English, but are bound to concede that many of us fail to grasp textured ideas and nuances expressed in English.

It seems to us, therefore, that while it may be important to have English as a language of instruction, our children first have to learn English, meaning that it has to be taught to them in very much the same way as they may be taught French or Spanish.

It may also be that in the classroom English may not be the only relevant and useful language of instruction. It is possible that patois, in this context, may have to coexist beside English.

What we argue is for the most efficacious way of delivering information, knowledge and, therefore, education. Our primary concern is for the outcome, rather than how pristine is the method.

We believe that Ms Osbourne has rekindled a debate that is worth engaging. For it is our view that the time is ripe for a massive mobilisation for education, using all sources and avenues to drive the process, including popular entertainment, some of which is hardly in English.

What we want is popular buy-in for the importance of education, by all means possible. And having had that buy-in we want the transfer of knowledge by all channels possible.

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

once again good post andronian.
dare i say dr. dudd, red herring?

so dudd, here is the situation. i believe something is wrong with the methods being used to instruct english in jamaican schools. i believe they need to be altered to incorporate "patois awareness" to enable the instructors to differentiate between dialect and standard language.

speaking of which, this is not done in switzerland. since they ignore the dialect in schools, they speak curious looking high german sentences like:

"ich habe kalt" (i have cold) instead of "mir ist kalt" (i am cold). if only some instructor had told them that the former is dialect and the latter is correct and true standard german. they are left to assume that a one-to-one correspondence between schwyzertüütsch and hochdeutsch exists. draw a parallel from that example with patois.

just to play devil's advocate here, it would seem to me that if the current method were fine in that all we need to do is veil all references to patois (which is the case as it is now) then the performance of our students in the caribbean or cambridge english examinations would indicate that jamaicans are not intelligent enough to or simply incapable of speaking standard english.

[draino]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

-ignore-

[barosa]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

It may also be that in the classroom English may not be the only relevant and useful language of instruction. It is possible that patois, in this context, may have to coexist beside English.

Dis a wha mi ben a seh in won a mi erlia post. Patwa yused as an elp in scool can bi aff benifitt... Mi can memba back in primary scool days, di "Inglish" teecha, when shi get rygin, a patwa she yuse fi get her messige acraass, cause som a wi aise was very arrd!! It was a bigg elp to som a wi... Nutt'n can beat dat for emphasis as a tool in teeching... A so mi ben a seh erlia... "there is a place for Jamaican Patwa but ENGILSH must be taught".

example: Unno com ya fi larn or Wha? unno no badda mi inya tiday eno! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

--------------------
Larnin an Teechin are on opposite sides of the koin.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Thanks draino.
Mi an yu si eye to eye inna dis so till.

"there is a place for Jamaican Patwa but ENGILSH must be taught".

Yes, a truu. All a wi agree on dat.
If Japanese find it valuable to learn english in their geographical location, we certainly should. Many Jamaicans do know english well and we have an head start given our history of contact with the english language. So any failure at all on our part seems due to a poor pedagogical approach.

By the way, we used to sing folk songs at 'prize-giving' in prep school and we didn't sing them in english. Obviously they were communicated to us orally as there's no standard way to write Jamaican. I just don't get the fear of legitimizing and acknowledging something that exists and is a part of our culture. This is like the opposite of the emperor's new clothes.

I think the nakedness of the statues at emancipation park, despite their somewhat controversial nature, may be an apt symbol. The message seems to be that we shouldn't be afraid to look on ourselves in our bare state and acknowledge and value who we are and our intrinsic contribution to humanity.

However, many of us ARE afraid. VERY afraid. That's why we try to cover up and suppress and hide things like Jamaican speech. The statues therefore represent something we should aspire to (hence their looking upward) rather than a reflection of our current state.

It's almost as some of us want to sterilize ourselves...and if that is accomplished will be left? A nation of people still not English, still not American, and yet a shadow of their former identity.

Anyway, mi gone way outa lef field. The attitude toward our language is just indicative of something else that I very much dislike. We devalue most of our own products and run down everything foreign.

So, the university poll a show wan nice level of self acknowledgment and everybody a ron a kom from lef right an centa a write article inna paypa fi tell wi ow dat wrong.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

I just saw this article in the observer.

THE education ministry has approved the experiment by a university team to teach children using Jamaican Patois and English in four primary schools, but appear to have no plans to adopt the strategy in the formal school system, no matter the results of the study.

So there are the usual reservations but if the results are good I find it difficult to imagine they'll continue to ignore this approach. Personally, I don't think most of Henry-Wilson's concerns are well founded as she frequently equates presence of patois with english incompetence ignoring the fact that it's a BILINGUAL education project (BEP). Anyway, she is not unique. I'll cut her slack since at least her ministry is being open to the idea.

But while the debate rages on, Professor Devonish [project's lead teacher] is content that the results of the project would put all concerns to rest.

Yes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'm interested in the progress of this project.

He [Devonish] is not daunted by the fact that the native tongue, even today, is scorned by many. Neither does he appear too concerned about the ministry's position that it could affect Jamaica's comparative advantage in a world dominated by English speakers.

The professor and his team are intent on improving the competence levels of participating students who might not necessarily have problems reading English, but might be challenged to speak it fluently, and vice versa with their native Patois.

A dat mi a se!

Anyway, more details at :

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html...AI_DI_PATWA.asp

[Guest]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Andronian, you (and others) make a convincing argument. Have you thought of setting up a petition to the Ministry of Education and asking Xavier if it could be posted on the home page? I would support the effort.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Quote..He [Devonish] is not daunted by the fact that the native tongue, even today, is scorned by many. Neither does he appear too concerned about the ministry's position that it could affect Jamaica's comparative advantage in a world dominated by English speakers.

The professor and his team are intent on improving the competence levels of participating students who might not necessarily have problems reading English, but might be challenged to speak it fluently, and vice versa with their native Patois.............


I would think that the approach to take to solve this problem is to institute a meathod of teaching them how to speak english,instead of teaching them patois that they already know,how to speak.
I suppose there is no free money from the Swiss to do the former,so the latter will do.
Jamaica as usual antway to make a quick buck, irrespective of the eventual cost to the country.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

I would think that the approach to take to solve this problem is to institute a meathod of teaching them how to speak english,instead of teaching them patois that they already know,how to speak.
I suppose there is no free money from the Swiss to do the former,so the latter will do.
Jamaica as usual antway to make a quick buck, irrespective of the eventual cost to the country.

I bet you didn't read the article.

Firstly, both languages are taught.
More emphasis is placed on reading/writing patois than speaking it as children are usually quite proficient in the latter. This is no different from other countries where the language of education happens to be equal to the natively learned language (sometimes after centuries of this not being the case). In Spain, for example, children learn to speak Spanish 'automatically' but have to be taught to read/write it in school. Obviously the Jamaican students will also be taught english and will have a more acute awareness of the boundaries between the two languages.

Secondly, the article says all expenses are being covered by the University Department but they actually don't have enough money. They need it for printing books etc. So much for making a quick buck.

I think a crop of students with the confidence to read, write and speak both English and Jamaican will be a huge asset to a future Jamaica. Not only will they not be burderned with negative self image but they'll have the ability to use english well for its political/economic advantages and be able to write Jamaican poems, novels and plays under a standard writing system.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Andronian, you (and others) make a convincing argument. Have you thought of setting up a petition to the Ministry of Education and asking Xavier if it could be posted on the home page? I would support the effort

Mi tink se dem on di right track. Regardless of what Henry Wilson said (you know politicians already, dem a fi cover dem behind) the project was approved and these initial students will be assessed and we'll see the results. As the professor said, hopefully the results will do their part to allay some fears.

[barosa]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

"People the world over speak three, four different languages and Jamaicans are no different," he added.
But Henry-Wilson, though acknowledging that while the new education policy speaks to some of the issues discussed by the researchers, was noncommittal about implementing bilingual instruction on a formal scale after Devonish's project wraps up in 2008.

Let's not kid (deceive) ourselves, PATWA is not yet a language and should not be refered to as such. It is essentially a dialect of broken English mix up with African and other ethnic words... This is not the route to take in trying to make Jamaicans become officially "bi-lingual" like people the world over who speak more than one language. That would amount to false bilingualism that most would laugh at. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

If Jamaicans really want to be truly bilingual, then let them be in "Spanish emersion classes". This will serve us well and much better than trying to experiment with "patwa dat wi all bawn knowing". The benefit to us will be more meaningful and substantial since most of our neighbours in the hemisphere are Spanish speaking... GUESS WHAT DEM ALL LEARNING! I can tell unnu.... it's not PATWA, an wen dem dunn larn ie, dem wudd bi truly bi-lingwall.

The professor and his team are intent on improving the competence levels of participating students who might not necessarily have problems reading English, but might be challenged to speak it fluently, and vice versa with their native Patois.

At least, the professor is cognizant of the fact that speaking English fluently is a challenge for most Jamaicans. Why mess around with the kids in their formative years with PATWA GRAMMAR when the teachers should be teaching them proper English diction, err, grammar, pronounciations etc.?? Nothing is more embarrassing than educated Jamaicans who cannot speak fluent English. It hasn't got to be the queen's or Oxfordian english Idah! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Professor Devonish is content that the results of the project will put all concerns to rest.
"Science, mathematics and all other subjects are taught in other languages; why not Patois?" he queries rhetorically.

It's important to note, he did NOT say "why not "Jamaican", he said "why not patois" (patwa). As I said earlier, There is a place for "Jamaican PATWA", (I will add 'proper') but proper ENGLISH must be taught!

-------------------
Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. : Carl Gustav Jung

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Let's not kid (deceive) ourselves, PATWA is not yet a language and should not be refered to as such. It is essentially a dialect of broken English mix up with African and other ethnic words... This is not the route to take in trying to make Jamaicans become officially "bi-lingual" like people the world over who speak more than one language. That would amount to false bilingualism that most would laugh at

I'm just using your post as a springboard here. Don't think I'm arguing with you specifically.
:-)

What makes a manner of speaking become a language when it's not already classified as such? Take Germanic words (good, day, morning etc.) mix them up with 'mispronounced' and 'ungrammatical' French (director, theatre, attention etc.) and voila you have English.

Firstly,

1) Patois is grammatically different from English but it has its own grammar. Broken english does not patois make. In fact most Jamaicans would be pretty insulted if someone actually tried to imitate Jamaican speech by using broken english even though we sometimes call it that.

Is 'Book table not if is definite clown' Patois?
No, it's just a sequence of english words with no grammatical structure. But the sentences below are all patois and significantly different from their grammatically correct english translations.

A tiad im tiad mek im tap ron.

Yu no fi do dem sitn de.

A soso rice di uman gi mi fi niam.

A we unu a do?

A we yu a do?

A we yu do?

Di kyar mash up.

Di kyar dem mash up.

Pluralization, negation and tense marking, though present, are all handled significantly differently from english. The fact that a large proportion of words have germanic roots (via english) doesn't make it merely broken english. 'Goede morgen' is 'good morning' in dutch. Is dutch a broken version of some other language because it shares some common ancestor with english?

2)Pronunciation is significantly different in many words which have english roots. Examples are the deletion of sylabbles ('notn') and substitution of consonant clusters for others ('dung', grung, and 'dem', 'ting'). In fact 'th' (where the tongue has to come between the teeth) doesn't exist in vernacular Jamaican speech, invariably becoming 't' or 'd'.

Vowels also tend to get shorter and sometimes change (as in 'mek'). In addition there is palatization (tongue touching the roof of the mouth as in gyal) and nazalization (some of the sound escaping through the nose as in the end of kyaahn, which also features a palatized 'k' sound). The english root words aren't so treated by most english speakers.

Our native tongue is different enough from english to necessitate significant care when switching between the two. Grammatically, it is another world, and we have to sound those 'th's and 'thr's :-p . It is also different enough to lose the uninitiated english but non-patois speaker. However, that isn't the measure of language because there are languages that are mutually intelligible which are still classified as separate languages.

What therefore is the common definition of language? I think it's similar to the definition of 'terrorist' or 'communist'. ;-) It's whatever you make it for the purpose of inclusion or exclusion, exalting or debasing. That patois is not the same as english and has been spoken in Jamaica for centuries is sufficient for me to call it a language.

MANY languages have evolved due to a clash of cultures. You can thank the Roman invasions for the variety of latin derived Romance Languages (Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian and Romanian). Those languages are different because the native people were different and as they retained some of their speech patterns they transformed latin.

Finally, I don't think most foreigners would laugh at us for recognizing patois (why should we even care though?). In many cases they have done it before us. You can study patois at some UK Universities and at the Universidad de Puerto Rico in Puerto Rico. I have been asked 'What language do Jamaicans speak?' and 'Teach me it'. I definitely remember being surprised that someone would consider learning it desirable since in Jamaica it's something we were taught to be ashamed of even though most of speak it at some time.

Anyway, it'll probably take us a generation to unlearn the way we have been taught to view our native speech. I mean, some were forbidden to speak it as children and those kind of experiences must run deep. You'll find that the younger generation is much more free in its use of patois than the older.

Jamaicans are already bilingual because most 'pick up' patois as children and are taught english at school. The BEP seems geared towards closing certain gaps in mastery of both languages. Specifically, the fact that some may not be able to speak english as well as they read it nor read patois as well as they speak it. I don't see how this can fail to be a good healthy thing.

Jamaica has a 'high' and a 'low' language. The 'low' language isn't considered a language so people who who speak the 'low' language need to 'learn how to speak properly'. This is common throughout the english speaking Carribean where colonially inherited official languages exist alongside various Creoles (French based creoles in Dominica and St. Lucia). The winds of change are also sweeping the entire region as the local languages continue to make gains.

I find it all very interesting. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I think it's all a part of finding ourselves.
Most of our countries aren't even 50 years old.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

By the way, Papua New Guinea is a country which speaks english and has an english based creole officially recognized. Jamaica would hardly be breaking new ground.

http://www.une.edu.au/langnet/tokpisin.htm

Current Use and Attitudes

Today Tok Pisin is the lingua franca of the entire country of Papua New Guinea, known by an estimated three quarters of the country's four million inhabitants. It is, in fact, the most widely used language of urban areas.

Tok Pisin is used to some extent in radio and television broadcasting, especially in interviews and news reports. (It is also used in Radio Australia's Tok Pisin broadcasts.) The weekly Tok Pisin newspaper Wantok has a readership of over 10,000, and many government publications are also in Tok Pisin. The language is widely used in religion, and there is a Tok Pisin translation of the New Testament of the Bible.

The constitution recognizes Tok Pisin as one of the national languages of the country. Although English is more widely used for government business, much of the debate in Parliament is in Tok Pisin.

Until recently, English was the official language of education in PNG, and used in all government schools (although Tok Pisin was widely used in community and church-run pre-schools and vocational schools). However, with the recent education reform, communities can choose the language to be used in the first three years of elementary education, and many have chosen Tok Pisin.

Although many people still feel that Tok Pisin is inferior to English, most accept it as a separate language, and an important language of Papua New Guinean identity.

Replace New Guinea with Jamaica and Tok Pisin with Patois and you almost have Jamaica there. However, they seem more officially open to their english based creole language. Jamaica seems to be slowly changing.

Vocabulary

Since English is the lexifier language of Tok Pisin, most of the words come from English. But they are often pronounced in a different way (see Sounds), and some may have different meanings. For example: spak (from "spark") means 'drunk' and baksait (from "backside") refers to someone's back, not to their butt.

Many Tok Pisin words have a meaning much wider than that of the English word they came from. For example, kilim (from "kill him") can mean 'hit' or 'beat' as well as 'kill'; pisin (from "pigeon") means 'bird' in general'; and gras (from "grass") means not only 'grass' but also 'hair', 'fur' and 'feathers'.

Also, some combinations of words have different meanings: e.g. bel hevi (from 'belly heavy') means 'sad'.

This is the other side of the world.
Sounds familiar?
lol

Anyway, I feel like I've said everything I ever wanted to say about this topic so mi done...heh