Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

[Sofisa]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sofisa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Fortunately the armed citizen was not hurt. Unforunately, the passengers prolly see him as putting their lives in danger. <span style="font-weight: bold">Do you know of any training offered to civilians on how to use a gun in a crowd?</span></span> </div></div>
If people are to bear arms as a deterrent to crime as Dr. Dudd has been recommending, they should most certainly be trained on how to use it in all situations. A firearm in and of itself offers no protection against crime unless the bearer knows how to use it in every type of potentially dangerous situations. </div></div>
On this subject matter, you can't be trained for every situation, but your training / knowledge will allow you to choose the best suitable weapon and ammo for most setting. A shotgun is one of the best home defense weapon, but definitely impractical on the street.

@ More4us ..... Cops carry guns for their own self defense, and the way things are in Jamaica, the citizens face no less threat. Do you think if a cop was a passenger on a crowded bus and was targetted, you think he would hesitate to defend his life any less than this armed citizen? I'll have you know that many a civilians are better shots than the average cops as many cps only go to the range when ordered to.

The point of the matter is that criminals should never feel safe and confident to board a crowded bus, expecting to find everyone sitting unarmed and submissive.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

That is what these inteligent people can't seem to grasp. That is what deterrent means. That is the same reason why the criminals on the states where these acts do not happen, is deterred from attempting it.
They simply realize that they won't be successful at accomplishing their goals. irrespective of why they wouldnt,they decision is the same.
and that is the goal of the action.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is what these inteligent people can't seem to grasp. That is what deterrent means. That is the same reason why the criminals on the states where these acts do not happen, is deterred from attempting it.
They simply realize that they won't be successful at accomplishing their goals. irrespective of why they wouldnt,they decision is the same.
and that is the goal of the action. </div></div>
Really?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is what these inteligent people can't seem to grasp. That is what deterrent means. That is the same reason why the criminals on the states where these acts do not happen, is deterred from attempting it.
They simply realize that they won't be successful at accomplishing their goals. irrespective of why they wouldnt,they decision is the same.
and that is the goal of the action. </div></div>
Really? </div></div> No!!
can't you see the simple logic?!?!
OK one more time.

Wherever people don't go around using guns to rob people, there is a deterrent that discourages it. Irrespective of what the deterrent is there certainly is one.
wealthy societies can afford sophisticated and therefore expensive deterrent. That is out iod the reach of Jamaica. It does not mean that we should sit a wring our hands, cry,compalain or accept ot. We have to innitiate the sort of deterrent we can afford. One that is within international human rights standards.
this one has been used effectively, and accepted on other countries, and as a result we take it for granted. It i sos effective that we arer now raking it for granted,and want in many cases to remove it.
the day we do that, we will guarantee a future experience of a civilization crash more devastating then the current market crash.

[remo]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Adding lots more guns to an already out-of-control violent society is no different than pouring gasoline on a fire.

Doc, you have to be nuts. </div></div>

That's the way I look at it too....To me that kind of thinking is irrational how an intellegent person can have that kind of mindset is a mystery to me,But,then I never went to school

[Blackstar*]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

Rather just using gun ownership in the US as a benchmark, why not consider countries where guns are less available. Surely those countries have fewer gun-related crimes than the US (which is a violent place).

[remo]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rather just using gun ownership in the US as a benchmark, why not consider countries where guns are less available. Surely those countries have fewer gun-related crimes than the US (which is a violent place). </div></div>

Countries like Canada.....As a former licensed gun holder here the law was such that to transport the firearm from the range to my home I had to have a seperate case with a lock and it had to be in the trunk of the car....

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rather just using gun ownership in the US as a benchmark, why not consider countries where guns are less available. Surely those countries have fewer gun-related crimes than the US (which is a violent place). </div></div> I will wager that in every ione of thoise countries,when they were at th ejinctire of nationhood as Jamaica is today {40 years after independence, with no national plan to keep the population able to afford to live without having to break the law,they had gun sawash, or whatewver the highest tech weapons of the times was,they had it to deterr ribbery,and murder.. Every one of them including Canada.

[Sofisa]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

It is blatantly obvious that for the past 30 yrs, Jamaica's gun laws have failed. Criminals, who these laws were meant to control, have dominated the arms race against the state. The laws have extended to the point that not even a pepper spray a citizen must have in public.

1000+ a year slaughtered and nearly as much is declared missing, while the others just sit passively and wait to be murdered / victimized by either group. And civillians shouldn't be armed because...?

&quot;In a rotten society, in which the criminals have the upper hand, in which the security forces are unable to give adequate protection, it is simply wrong to disarm our citizens and leave them without the means to defend themselves.&quot;

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20000809/Cleisure/Cleisure2.html

[Morpheous]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so just being a licensed gun holder in jamaica gives you the right to open up fire in a crowded bus....I understand if you are in your house,but on public transport? </div></div>
Doc will disagree with you because from you own a license firearm you can open up in crowd or no crowd if you feel you under threat. I find that some what irresponsible and it sound like the victims were more terrified of the licensed gunman reaction rather the the unlicensed gunmen actions. Defend yourself yes but responsibly otherwise we must agree with politicians when they say it is acceptable to have innocent lives lost during a police raid, country invasion etc. Unlike the unlicensed gunmen... responsibility comes with owning a licensed gun. </div></div> Speak for yourself.
This is how a logical argument is derailed by frivalous innuendos, that has no place in serious discussions.

Please remind the readers of the instance or number of instances,wher I have suggested, or even hinted that &quot;<span style="font-weight: bold">from you own a license firearm you can open up in crowd or no crowd if you feel you under threat</span>&quot;?

Please don't limit your answer to my discussion in this post, on this board, or any specific media.

Thanks in advance. </div></div>
LOL at Doc... Listen I know where you stand re citizens owning guns and using it as zero tolerance to send a message to the gunmen. Kill or be killed is your message. We had this discussion before. OK you didn't say 'shooting in a crowd'.... 'LITERALLY' or insinuated anything of the sort. However, I know you do defend the citizen on the bus right to own and carry his gun legally. You do also support the right of the said citizen on bus to defend himself with said gun if he deems fit i.e. feels his life is in danger. All good arguments I will add but my metaphor was that this is one of the downsides of a citizen owning a gun and setting out on a crowded public transport packing his heat ready for action.

Many people including my family pack their heat in Jamaica and they have stories to tell to justify owning a gun. From being lay-waited outside their driveway to driving home late on the road back from the bar ect. However they carry their guns in their own private car not on public transport and when on the few occassions they took public transport they did not carry their gun along with them.

All I am saying is in this case the citizen in question used poor judgement to open fire be it for a good cause. If the same bus jacking/robbery took place in america, canada or britain that citizen COULD well find himself before a court or even his gun license revoked. IF I feel the need to travel on public transport with a gun in any country, is the day I feel it's time to leave that country. Back in the wild west days they all carried guns too but it caused more problems than it solved as each citizen felt they had the right to defend farmland and family it lead to too many family and blood feuds and finally it dawned on said citizens the only way out of that tail spin was to have a proper police and law enforcement in place with an effective judicial system.

What is needed is more police on the streets of kingston.
More guns in the hands of the police &amp; less in the hands of the public!
More special units to deal with gunmen
A more effective judicial system
More training, jobs and opportunities for poor people; especially ghetto yutes as they are most likely to use a gun when other opportunities is beyond their reach.

Movada sings about coming from the gully; about ghetto yutes looking a job and being turned down so they decide fi pick up a gun fi feed dem daughter and son.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rather just using gun ownership in the US as a benchmark, why not consider countries where guns are less available. Surely those countries have fewer gun-related crimes than the US (which is a violent place). </div></div>

The USA is not a good example either way. State Laws differ in many States, permit more or less ownership as well as varying results in terms of gun-related killings/violence. The Nordic Countries have a higher percentage of potential gun owners and generally lower age bar for ownership; yet have a lower rate of killings by guns. Even failed State such as Haiti where laws are either none existent of observe in the breach have a lower rate of murders by the gun than the USA.

The argument in favour on widespread gun ownership hinges the realization that Jamaica has one of the most stringent laws against weapons of any kind in the world, i.e. you cannot even carry a pen knife about your person in public, even a machete in your bedroom is considered criminal possession. When coupled with the fact that we are one of the most violent countries in the world some questions should be answered:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]can the State adequately protect Jamaican Citizens?[*]does the Investigative Apparatus of the State function effectively?[*]is the Jamaican State able to effectively enforce the laws banning the ownership of weapons?[*]lastly, in the decades since Jamaicans have been discouraged from owing weapons, have the restrictions produced any favorable results?[/list]

[iches]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

This is the Best news for the year so far from Jamaica. It finally happened! I always wondered when a passenger would retaliate, and I am so happy to hear and glad at the same time non of the passengers were hurt.

Bus robbery, the women was the main target, as often times they had to strip bare chest, to show that there was nothing left to take.

They planned to end their short trip at old Brentford road and run to the gully into Jones Town. The shooter should be getting an OD this month. Its a pity it wasn't 4 instead of 2.

Now, there is a strong fear among that set of thieves now, and quite likely they are looking for a new way to continue.

[Sofisa]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iches</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the Best news for the year so far from Jamaica. It finally happened! I always wondered when a passenger would retaliate, and I am so happy to hear and glad at the same time non of the passengers were hurt.

Bus robbery, the women was the main target, as often times they had to strip bare chest, to show that there was nothing left to take.

They planned to end their short trip at old Brentford road and run to the gully into Jones Town. The shooter should be getting an OD this month. Its a pity it wasn't 4 instead of 2.

Now, there is a strong fear among that set of thieves now, and quite likely they are looking for a new way to continue. </div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still <span style="font-weight: bold">more
unfortunate </span>if wrongdoers should dominate just men</span> .............. St. Augustine

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

'Everyone is in fear'
Residents anxious as robbers plague rural Manchester, St Elizabeth communities
KARYL WALKER, Crime/court co-ordinator [email protected]
Wednesday, October 08, 2008



RESIDENTS in sections of the peaceful farming belt bordering South Manchester and St Elizabeth say they are at their wits' end.

The residents claim they are under siege from an armed band of thugs who are wreaking havoc, plaguing the communities with a series of armed robberies which have driven fear into their hearts.

Police have confirmed that they have received reports that the robbers have been targeting business owners in recent weeks and have been responsible for a series of armed robberies in several districts in Southern Manchester and the neighbouring parish of St Elizabeth.

Reports are that the marauding gunmen have been robbing bars, shops and other businesses in the New Forest, Downs, Sea Air and Comma Pen areas on a regular basis for the last two months. The residents of these farming communities say they have never experienced this level of crime in their lives. Burglary and praedial larceny have been their main concerns, but in recent times gun violence has threatened to shatter their peaceful existence.

&quot;Sometimes the thief would break in through the roof when we lock up and sometimes some man drive through and rob, but that never happen regular. Nowadays we have to lock up from early evening,&quot; one bar owner told the Observer.

The residents are adamant that the gunmen have been imported into their communities by persons among them with evil intent.

&quot;They must have been brought here by people who know the area and tell them how to operate. We believe they have cronies who are living among us but we have no concrete proof,&quot; one resident said.

The last robbery took place last Sunday night in the New Forest district. Residents say two armed men barged into a bar and restaurant and held guns at patrons before making off with a measly $150 and a cellular phone.

One woman who was present at the time of robbery recounted her experience.

&quot;Him come and push the gun inna mi neck and say 'gimme the money'. Me tell him say only $100 mi have and him say gimme. Them put the gun pan another man and demand him money. Him did only have $50 and them take it same way. After that them take mi phone and leave,&quot; the woman told the Observer.

About a week ago, a masked gunman pounced on a female bar owner in the district of Downs as she prepared to close business for the night. The intruder hit the woman over her head with his handgun after she hesitated to lie face down as he ordered.

The gunman delivered another blow to the terrified woman after she handed over her day's sale to him.

According to the shell-shocked woman, her life has never been the same since her ordeal and she is considering seeking professional help.

&quot;I have had very little sleep since the incident. It's not about the money, but the fact that my life was in his hands. Every time I try to get some rest the image of this masked man with a gun just comes in my mind and a feel really afraid,&quot; the woman said.

The night before that incident gunmen struck at a nearby bar and ordered about a dozen patrons to lie face down before cleaning out their pockets and taking the money in the bar's till. They also made off with all cellular phones. Then two days later, gunmen robbed a woman and her daughter as they entertained patrons at a bar in the Sea Air district. Again the take was less than $5,000.

The recent string of robberies has caused business owners in that section of the island to draw down their shutters when darkness approaches which according to them, has begun to eat away at their profits.

&quot;The people around here are hardworking and there is very little in the form of entertainment besides a bar. After a hard day's work the people like to unwind with a few drinks and now because of these characters we have to be closing early because everyone is in fear,&quot; one business owner told the Observer.

The recent spate of armed robberies has caused at least one business owner to draw down his shutters for good.

But police from Manchester and St Elizabeth say they have been patrolling the areas regularly and are urging residents to report any strange activity in their communities. The cops say they are hampered by a lack of vehicles at the Alligator Pond police station which has responsibility for most of the communities that are being targeted by gunmen.

&quot;There is only one service vehicle at the Alligator Pond station and sometimes we don't even have gas to keep the vehicle on the road,&quot; an officer from the Manchester police division said.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Bus robbers killed by armed citizen

Those who continue to hinder lawfull citozens from being armed in great enough numbers tyo change the tide of criminality will sooner or later be faced with the identical situation.
i hope they survive their experience. T
his include the business,and foreign organizations involved covertly in the polocy making process.

Only the wealthy can have peace and prosper in the country die to government policies.