Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jamaica

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Jamaica ther are many Jamaican born people who hold British and other coitozenship that has allegience to and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">take orders from abroad</span></span>. They simply are contracted to do so. </div></div>

I wouldn't dispute that there are Jamaicans who are citizens of foreign countries, but based on what you are inferring here, can you say who these people are, and cite examples of their taking orders from abroad?

[Morpheous]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, TG how about it.
You claimed that the PNP was involved in the coup in Grenada, failed to produce a shred of evidence to support that claim and are now poo-pooing my attempts to find corroborating evidence for something YOU claimed to be true.</div></div>
Don't you recognise his strategy always asking others to proof something he himself have no proof of. Keep reading you will see the same tactics again and again. He calls everyone else LIARS while he himself LIES.

[Morpheous]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying that Michael Manley was somehow exempt from the U.S global war on socialism (the Cold War) when it took down governments in Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, Haiti and others that were considered leftist is just not reasonable or likely.

Michael Manley was close to both bete noire Fidel Castro and brought in Cuban doctors and military (I think) and with Maurice Bishop in Grenada both in the gunsights of the United States.

Cuba was the only country to withstand the desires of the Empire and the Empire could not, was not going to repeat that mistake

It is most certainly true that the U.S. waged the same economic and destabilization that was so successful in Chile on Jamaica.

Occam's Razor applies here. The most likely explanation is the most likely explanation.

It is unlikely to a probability of near zero that the U.S. did not do what they needed to do to get Manley out of power and the very pro-Empire Seaga in.

We've been through this several times.

Your thinking on this is not corroborated by the many things I've read about U.S. foreign policy and I've read a lot about U.S. foreign policy in the 40 years I've been doing that. <span style="font-weight: bold">To the contrary, it is nearly universally believed that Manley was removed as a leftist threat and model for other countries in the area very close to the United States.</span>

Another Cuba in the form of a a socialist Jamaica would have been a disaster for the Empire. </div></div>
Manley would certainly be in americas cross hair scope after his speech about not bowing to the usa and that the usa cannot dictate to him who he or Jamaica should or should not have as friends.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... it is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">nearly universally believed</span></span> that Manley was removed as a leftist threat and model for other countries in the area very close to the United States.</div></div>

Belief and fact are not the same. One can always believe whatever one wishes, but the fact is that Michael Manley was voted out of power by, up to that point, the largest electoral margin since Independence; the PNP won only 9 seats to the JLP's 51. Every rational assessment and even the Stone Poll organization showed that, even with some voter irregularities, they were not of a scale as to distort the expressed will of the Jamaican electorate.

Now I understand that the facts can sometimes get in the way of a good story, and saying that Manley was &quot;removed&quot; from power by a CIA plot is a far more sensational story. But facts are facts. In 1980, the Manley-led PNP was voted out of power.

[Wahalla]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... it is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">nearly universally believed</span></span> that Manley was removed as a leftist threat and model for other countries in the area very close to the United States.</div></div>

Belief and fact are not the same. One can always believe whatever one wishes, but the fact is that Michael Manley was voted out of power by, up to that point, the largest electoral margin since Independence; the PNP won only 9 seats to the JLP's 51. Every rational assessment and even the Stone Poll organization showed that, even with some voter irregularities, they were not of a scale as to distort the expressed will of the Jamaican electorate.

Now I understand that the facts can sometimes get in the way of a good story, and saying that Manley was &quot;removed&quot; from power by a CIA plot is a far more sensational story. But facts are facts. In 1980, the Manley-led PNP was voted out of power. </div></div>

I alwasy said jamaicans voted for their own selfish needs...was simple.... Doc pointed out that was highly poltical motives and quoted some dead white man who mandated this theory of sophistcation.. Manley goveremnt was incompetnent in 1980.. in fact it was less competent than the PJ goverment.. and that they were fundamental incompentent..but they cumpounded it by being. eiteher stupid or beleiving that every one was like them.....

Jamaicans voted them out in fact they were voted out of their heart lands.. and they got the message... the PNP then evolved ....

and each time given the limited choices Jamaicans have always chosen what was best for them... not what those wise people who have ontempt for our abilities wantt..

I was there manley's 76 govemennt was incompetent...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying that Michael Manley was somehow exempt from the U.S global war on socialism (the Cold War) when it took down governments in Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, Haiti and others that were considered leftist is just not reasonable or likely. </div></div>

My friend provide the proof. and don't know what you are talking about. Since you have made the same assertions in the other posts I will just copy and paste my reply too. </div></div>


TG,
You recently said that the PNP supported the Coard coup in Grenada and could not provide a single piece of evidence, nor an article, anything to back that up.

I never accused you of lying.


You can Google or use any search engine or library references and come up with tons of stuff on U.S. intervention in Jamaica which backs up what I claim and common sense would tell anyone but you that the U.S. simply did not tolerate leftists leanings in this hemisphere and especially in the 70's and 80's.

It may be possible that I'm mistaken but logic dictates otherwise and the most likely thing to have happened is the most likely thing to have happened.



The only point you make by calling me a liar is that you have no argument and have to revert to name-calling.

Yeah, we've been through this before and you are entitled to print whatever you choose.
IMO you're damaging your overall credibility by sticking to the claim that the U.S. did not destabilize Jamaica. Wearing historical blinders will get you blind sided intellectually..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

I also urge interested parties to Google &quot;U.S. destabilization of Jamaica &quot; and read what you find there.

here's an example:

Jamaica, 1974-1980
In 1972, democratic socialist Michael Manley was elected prime minister of Jamaica. Henry Kissinger initiated measures to destabilize the government, including a withdrawal of U.S. aid and the sending of CIA-trained Cuban exiles to Jamaica to instigate violent incidents which had a devastating effect on the tourist business, critical to the Jamaican economy. CIA-trained labor leaders engaged in anti-government strikes and U.S. aluminum companies reduced their Jamaican production, further damaging the economy. The United States closed Jamaica out of the international public and private lending market. Economic austerity measures initiated by the U.S.-dominated International Monetary Fund led to price increases and wage freezes. While Manley won re-election in 1976, he was defeated in 1980 as the deterioration of the economy turned the public against his government. The Jamaican operation introduced a sophisticated form of economic destabilization/electoral rollback which could become a pattern for the future.

Containment = Selective Rollback

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

O K!!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only point you make by calling me a liar is that you have no argument and have to revert to name-calling. </div></div>

Please don't get it twisted, you are liar and I am calling you a liar.
You have consistently made the same baseless accusations over the years without providing one shred of proof.
Put something up that I can respond to then I will. Don't keep posting the ramblings of your idiotic mind and expect me to refute that with any kind of analysis except to say you are an idiot and you are lying.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, TG how about it.
You claimed that the PNP was involved in the coup in Grenada, failed to produce a shred of evidence to support that claim and are now poo-pooing my attempts to find corroborating evidence for something YOU claimed to be true.</div></div>
Don't you recognise his strategy always asking others to proof something he himself have no proof of. Keep reading you will see the same tactics again and again. He calls everyone else LIARS while he himself LIES.

</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Idiot</span> I always post the facts and is willing to post the links to the facts.
This time I have refused. Yes this once I have refused...get it yet this one time I will not, dig yet short bus I am not going to.....<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">have you arrived yet Special Needs</span>?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also urge interested parties to Google &quot;U.S. destabilization of Jamaica &quot; and read what you find there.

here's an example:

Jamaica, 1974-1980
In 1972, democratic socialist Michael Manley was elected prime minister of Jamaica. Henry Kissinger initiated measures to destabilize the government, including a withdrawal of U.S. aid and the sending of CIA-trained Cuban exiles to Jamaica to instigate violent incidents which had a devastating effect on the tourist business, critical to the Jamaican economy. CIA-trained labor leaders engaged in anti-government strikes and U.S. aluminum companies reduced their Jamaican production, further damaging the economy. The United States closed Jamaica out of the international public and private lending market. Economic austerity measures initiated by the U.S.-dominated International Monetary Fund led to price increases and wage freezes. While Manley won re-election in 1976, he was defeated in 1980 as the deterioration of the economy turned the public against his government. The Jamaican operation introduced a sophisticated form of economic destabilization/electoral rollback which could become a pattern for the future.

Containment = Selective Rollback </div></div>

LOL is this it?
Where is the link to the whole article?
There are actual Jamaicans here who lived in Jamaica at the time I would like to ask them if they knew of any US trained Cuban Mercenaries in Jamaica?
I don't but I certainly knew of many Cuban Trained Mercenaries in Jamaica and many Cuban trained Jamaican mercenaries in Jamaica.

Just be careful because we are going down a path that I know something about and unlike you was there and have the links to prove it.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

hey TG, the man lives in the UK so I don't think he'll get the &quot;short bus&quot; joke.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also urge interested parties to Google &quot;U.S. destabilization of Jamaica &quot; and read what you find there.

here's an example:

Jamaica, 1974-1980
In 1972, democratic socialist Michael Manley was elected prime minister of Jamaica. Henry Kissinger initiated measures to destabilize the government, including a withdrawal of U.S. aid and the sending of CIA-trained Cuban exiles to Jamaica to instigate violent incidents which had a devastating effect on the tourist business, critical to the Jamaican economy. CIA-trained labor leaders engaged in anti-government strikes and U.S. aluminum companies reduced their Jamaican production, further damaging the economy. The United States closed Jamaica out of the international public and private lending market. Economic austerity measures initiated by the U.S.-dominated International Monetary Fund led to price increases and wage freezes. While Manley won re-election in 1976, he was defeated in 1980 as the deterioration of the economy turned the public against his government. The Jamaican operation introduced a sophisticated form of economic destabilization/electoral rollback which could become a pattern for the future.

Containment = Selective Rollback </div></div>

LOL is this it?
Where is the link to the whole article?
There are actual Jamaicans here who lived in Jamaica at the time I would like to ask them if they knew of any US trained Cuban Mercenaries in Jamaica?
I don't but I certainly knew of many Cuban Trained Mercenaries in Jamaica and many Cuban trained Jamaican mercenaries in Jamaica.

Just be careful because we are going down a path that I know something about and unlike you was there and have the links to prove it. </div></div> This answer takes the cake.

No pun intended.So the goal post moves again.
This time it is inthe bleachers. I wonder wher the spectators are supposed to sit. Theones that can only affprf blea
chers? Any way the game is not worth watching any more since the rules are so fleeting.

talk about migrating Goal posts!!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No pun intended.So the goal post moves again.</div></div>
My friend the Goal Posts have no moved. JFlakes has set verification at Google Search I have accepted that.
I just want him to post the link to the whole story so I can see the context that is all.

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Opinions</span> are not <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">facts</span>, you will agree right?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey TG, the man lives in the UK so I don't think he'll get the &quot;short bus&quot; joke. </div></div>

Yeah I kinda figured that.... I will have to translate it to the UK equivalent of <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Special Needs</span>.