Manley

**Tuff Gong** · 06-21-2010, 01:19 PM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j-can</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 1980s crime dipped dramatically. The Comrades blame it on police brutality. The police was brutal, but they are more brutal now and murders are climbing. </div></div>

crime went down because the guy responsible for most of it had taken a sabatical,he was now prime minister </div></div>

The Opposition cannot be held responsible for crime.
Crime rates has risen dramatically under every Comrade Governments.
The statistics say so.

**johnnycakes** · 06-22-2010, 10:41 AM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j-can</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 1980s crime dipped dramatically. The Comrades blame it on police brutality. The police was brutal, but they are more brutal now and murders are climbing. </div></div>

crime went down because the guy responsible for most of it had taken a sabatical,he was now prime minister </div></div>

The Opposition cannot be held responsible for crime.
Crime rates has risen dramatically under every Comrade Governments.
The statistics say so. </div></div>

Gee Tuff Gong,

Maybe crime would go down if everyone did what I did and hire machete wielding guards.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim.

Or......... you could admit that you were wrong.

**Wahalla** · 06-23-2010, 04:58 AM

Re: Manley

interesting that no one identify the central tenant of that original intent/ post:

Saint Joshua played a significant role in deploying, edifying the connection between gangs and poltics. In fact I would say that during his time the central fact was that the nexus between gangs and poltics began to change . When the badmanism moved from the perifery to the central of poltics..It became acceptable for a Prime Minister to attend the funeral of a gangster and praise them... Oh no we can insult seaga, demonise the man, but touching old Josuaha.. His heart was in the right place!

**johnnycakes** · 06-24-2010, 08:49 AM

Re: Manley

The big difference of course between Manley and Seaga is that Manley was leaning towards socialism and Seaga was a die-hard supporter of capitalism.

Jamaica's problems before and after independence all stem from the effects of poverty and the cause of that poverty is capitalism: the unequal distribution of wealth and the corruption caused by the desire for money often through political power.

Manley sought a peaceful transition towards socialism, not the violent revolution it takes and for a variety of reasons mainly the Cold War mind set of the times and the U.S. destabilization, he failed.
Put in another way, his heart WAS in the right place but as history of those years shows the U.S. would never permit any such move towards a system that is anathema to capitalism.

Jamaica is capitalist because Uncle says it must be so.

This is where Seaga differs greatly. He not only was opposed to socialism but greatly supported the U.S. interventionist foreign policy of upholding capitalism and crushing socialism especially since he was a beneficiary of it.

He was the first foreign leader to visit the newly inaugurated Ronald Reagan the most ardent Cold Warrior of them all and gladly had Jamaican forces participate in the U.S. invasion of Grenada which like Manley had fraternal relations with Cuba.

Seaga didn't care about the poor.
Manley did.

In the end even Manley had to cave in to U.S. pressure and acted no differently than any of his predecessors or successors.

Jamaica's problems today have the same cause as Jamaica's problems then. It is not so much who is elected to run Jamaica but rather who controls them; who determines what economic form Jamaica will have and it is not Jamaicans.

Jamaica like all countries in thrall to the United States is locked into a corrupted political system that is locked into capitalism which creates the problems of drug lords, violent crimes, drug use, , illiteracy, lack of proper medical, mental health and dental care and despair which all arise from so many having so little.

This bickering over Manley, Seaga PJ, the JLP or PNP is just a lot of hot air that avoids the real issue and that is the inability of Jamaicans to have the economic and electoral systems they need for all Jamaicans to reach their human potential.

**Q3210** · 06-26-2010, 01:06 AM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q3210:
"where the slave now sees it right to be now the slave driver."

Q3210,
Who in Jamaica is now the "slave driver" -it is obvious that the masses of working and poor people are the slaves-?

Since it is never in the nature of the ruling class to admit failure and they are the ones who alone can effect any change short of violent revolution, when and from where will this epiphany come ? </div></div>

Those that are now in the position that the colonists were in are now the slave drivers, namely the now privelidged middle class. They have tended to burn their bridges begind them and seen it fit to become what is at their disposal, wealth and status.
Give a dog a bone, you`ll see that it will never share. Why?
Because the cultural exposure encourages a desperate machoist have it all mentality/
We rejected all that was inherited from the colonial masters, both the bad and the good. Instead we should have recognized the efficient and built on it.
The industrialization that was taking place in Jamaica under the leadership of Bob Lightbourne pre-Mike Manley regime was turned into an evil miseducation by the same so-called socializatioon of the 70s under the great impressionist, Mike Manley where entrepeneurship was called exploitation of the masses and industrialization being diluted into the backwaters of thinking as being against what the poor and masses had as opportunity.
What was sold as democratic socialism was a Robin Hood egalitarian scheme where wealth was not nurtured and re- created but what was there to be redistributed which would eventually be depleted and nothing left but a group of power seekers that we call the modern day slave drivers.

**Q3210** · 06-26-2010, 01:16 AM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big difference of course between Manley and Seaga is that Manley was leaning towards socialism and Seaga was a die-hard supporter of capitalism.

Jamaica's problems before and after independence all stem from the effects of poverty and the cause of that poverty is capitalism: the unequal distribution of wealth and the corruption caused by the desire for money often through political power.

Manley sought a peaceful transition towards socialism, not the violent revolution it takes and for a variety of reasons mainly the Cold War mind set of the times and the U.S. destabilization, he failed.
Put in another way, his heart WAS in the right place but as history of those years shows the U.S. would never permit any such move towards a system that is anathema to capitalism.

Jamaica is capitalist because Uncle says it must be so.

This is where Seaga differs greatly. He not only was opposed to socialism but greatly supported the U.S. interventionist foreign policy of upholding capitalism and crushing socialism especially since he was a beneficiary of it.

He was the first foreign leader to visit the newly inaugurated Ronald Reagan the most ardent Cold Warrior of them all and gladly had Jamaican forces participate in the U.S. invasion of Grenada which like Manley had fraternal relations with Cuba.

Seaga didn't care about the poor.
Manley did.

In the end even Manley had to cave in to U.S. pressure and acted no differently than any of his predecessors or successors.

Jamaica's problems today have the same cause as Jamaica's problems then. It is not so much who is elected to run Jamaica but rather who controls them; who determines what economic form Jamaica will have and it is not Jamaicans.

Jamaica like all countries in thrall to the United States is locked into a corrupted political system that is locked into capitalism which creates the problems of drug lords, violent crimes, drug use, , illiteracy, lack of proper medical, mental health and dental care and despair which all arise from so many having so little.

This bickering over Manley, Seaga PJ, the JLP or PNP is just a lot of hot air that avoids the real issue and that is the inability of Jamaicans to have the economic and electoral systems they need for all Jamaicans to reach their human potential.

</div></div>

What Seaga did for the poor was monumental compared to what Manley wanted us to believe by his charismatic sweet mouthing rhetoric of equality for all, which was not genuine but more impressionist so as to preserve his summit of power politically.
Manley may have wished well but his method was next to madness, causing Jamaica to be not the flagship island of the |Caribbean but now next to Haiti as a poor under-developed 3rd world country.
Seaga was more culturally aware and next to the poor than Manley ever thought himself to be.
Jamaica bought into the sweet brown man as against the wicked regimental disciplined Middle-Eastern culture that Eddie meshed with his lovelorn Jamaica.

**johnnycakes** · 06-26-2010, 08:51 AM

Re: Manley

........"What Seaga did for the poor was monumental"

They are still poor. The country shows no sign of improving as in the capitalist world the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and more numerous. The power of the gangs and the corruption are growing. The economy which is run by and for the elite few is not improving to the point where there is any tangible benefit for the many poor and working poor.

AND... this is not something peculiar to Jamaica. It is typical of all Third World countries that are by definition poor in wealth and resources.

The problem is based in an economic system that does not work for the benefit of all but an elite group at the top of the economic heap.

That system is totally backed by the electoral system.

They are the source of Jamaica's problems. The people chosen by the two parties for the Jamaican electorate to vote for are locked into the system as it is.

Were they of a mind to make any serious changes, changes that would make a difference in the lives of all Jamaicans, they never would get to that position in either of the two parties.

You could compare Manley to Obama except that I believe that Manley was sincere in his attempts to make serious change happen and Obama was always all foggy talk.

The Cold War may be over but the effects of it persist in Jamaica and elsewhere.

In the end things stayed the same didn't they?

The Jamaican people are not ready for change, they fear it. They have been taught to fear it. Things will have to get a lot worse for the Jamaican people to move toward change and even then it will require a new charismatic leader to lead them and a few successful revolutionary governmental changes in the region as a model to guide them in their struggle.

In the interim, conditions will go downhill in Jamaica and the capitalist world in general as capitalism degenerates into oligopoly and globalization worsens conditions for the working poor in the entire Third World.

More of the same is not a solution.

**Q3210** · 06-26-2010, 10:35 PM

Re: Manley

Monumental in comparison to what Manley did.
Manley led us into a national state of emergency in 1976 based on a lie.
Manley`s socialism was based on redistribution of wealth, a Robin Hood.
Seaga tried to recreate wealth after the mashing up of industrialization which was going full throttle by Bob Lightbourne a former minister of industry and development.
Singapore`s Lee Kwan Yu came to Jamaica in the late 60s wanting to see what it was that we were doing so that he could model Singapore`s development after us.
Then came Manley and 8 years of idealistic hog-wash that turned out to be an abysmal failure. After Seaga`s 10 years, we dove in head first to what was Manley again who said he had erased the leopard spots from his coat or kareeba, then Mike`s health and PJ Patterson led us to believe that by more man have car and cell phone and more gyal was a reflection of an illusionary economic growth.
Sista P then took over the final years of a dinasouric 18 years of PNP ramshackle, where its minister of finance |Omar Davies finsacked Jamaican entrepeneurship by way of extreme high interest rate policies, encouraging Govt.paper investment and disolving production and industrialization aiming us on a downward spiral closer in relation to Haiti than towards what Jamaica was when we were regarded as a developing country.
Yes, our fall started during the Michael Manley days. The figures at the Statistical Institute of Jamaica will show

**Wahalla** · 06-27-2010, 09:10 AM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">8 years of idealistic hog-wash that turned out to be an abysmal failure.</div></div> But his heart was in the right place!!!! And it is the CIA who undermined him...ect... He confronted the US of A.. Angst driven tanks

your quote summerised manley perfectly.... And my comments summerise what will be said about it in the next 24 hours..

What annoys me is that so many see manley through a perspective of the metropoles racial poltics of a psuedo black nationalism.. They wernt there!!!!

Manley I lost respect for after he spoent a week end dissing the imf then the monday going to visit and ask for assistance.. I recall the days of a news being a recital of companies closing and comments of socialism.. I recall me rhetoric which I did not.. He degraded our wealth creating capacity...He degraded our education system, he compromised our poltics beyond repair.. And I like the man!!!Personally and morally..

His son got expelled and he did not bring influence to bear.. He actually sat on the stage with the man whom expelled him and took his sons certificates.... I saw him do that...

Seaga on the other hand understood buiness and reality.. I watched him stand by while his suppertors threathen schoolers and say nothing....

**johnnycakes** · 06-27-2010, 11:16 AM

Re: Manley

"........He (Manley) degraded our wealth creating capacity...."

What wealth creating capacity?

If you mean the neo-liberal economics which is a form of capitalism that has not, does not and cannot work in Third World countries then you're selling snake oil.

The wealth that is created under any form of capitalism (possible exception economically advanced social democracies like Norway) goes into the pockets of the top 10% of any capitalist country with the "trickle down" effect being what it always is and that is minimal.
In poorer countries like Jamaica with minimal natural and human resources to exploit the disparity in wealth is far greater than it is in developed countries.

Manley was, as said, and within his socialist mindset making attempts to distribute Jamaica's wealth such as it is more equitably so that all could live a decent life.

Seaga and Manley II and all the rest did and are doing what they feel is best for Jamaica WITHIN the neo-liberal economic form forced upon Jamaica by the United States. Of course, nothing any of them did or can do has much effect on poverty and all the ills of society that are created by chronic poverty.

Cuba, for all its current problems AND IN A STATE OF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES has solved its own problems of crime, illiteracy, drug trade and use, despair, gangs, lack of health care, mental health care, dental healthcare by dumping capitalism which caused the problems in the first place and going to democratic socialism.

Jamaicans have not been allowed to make this choice and as a result there will be no serious change for the better and as the capitalist world economy sinks,
Jamaica and all the other poorer countries will suffer disproportionately because they are poor with less money to go around.

All to say all this BS, all this useless chat about Seaga was better for Jamaica or Portia or the JLP or the PNP is just that; a waste of time.

From what I can see, this is no different than in the USA where they elected Obama to be something other than Bush and surprise, surprise he wasn't, isn't won't be.

Substitute Seaga for Bush and Manley for Obama and the picture is much the same. Nothing changes except for the worse.

Is this not true and obvious?

Stop the useless PNP/Manley vs JLP/Seaga debate and deal with the real problem.

You can't do that, can you?

It would mean getting serious about serious problems.

This is not about chatting over the neighbor's fence about this one or that one. This is life and death. This is your children's future. This is the land where you were born and raised.

It's your home and your house is on fire.

Quick, run out back and argue with your neighbors about the price of mangoes.

NOTHING CHANGES.

**Q3210** · 06-27-2010, 11:42 PM

Re: Manley

Sure many times there has been admittance to the failure of Jamaica`s politics and indeed Jamaica has dwelled within a failed state for far too many years whilst those that followed behind us are more developed and the trickle down effect more effectively beneficial to its citizens.

Part of our failure is to have too many students if you can call them so, at an age where they have numeracy and literacy deficiencies, where it was expecteed that they would have been otherwise more tuned to lead lives in this global cottage where competition encourages the best output.

We have failed our young by ranting about political power and party loyalty leaving street idlers mounting on the corners digging their hands brushing away ganja seeds as they turn to smoke as a relief from reality and thought development.

**franksterr** · 06-28-2010, 07:10 AM

Re: Manley

Here is former CIA agents telling what they do in Jamaica and other third world countries. The violence in Jamaica was the work of CIA agents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv3_IWEpaqI

Do you question Seaga affilitation with the CIA?

The CIA is not there to help poor countries, put to keep them underdevelop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VxnCBD9W4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

Manley was about change, so that all Jamaicans can have a fair share of Jamaicas economic prize

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAmJ5-TXR9M

**Q3210** · 06-28-2010, 09:56 AM

Re: Manley

Manley`s change was unreal. What he should have done was to build on the strengths and correct the failures of our socio-political scenario.
Instead he tore down the foundations with his suggestions and rhetoric and actions without having a clue on what new foundations were there to start afresh.
He gave powers to the renter over the property-owner as if the person renting in turn had more rights to the property.
He gave a sense that the worker owned his job.
His egalitarian subjection was without method and more in line with madness.
Look at what has happened to Jamaica since as testimony to the failure of a warped and foolish mentality.

**johnnycakes** · 06-28-2010, 11:16 AM

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley`s change was unreal. What he should have done was to build on the strengths and correct the failures of our socio-political scenario.
Instead he tore down the foundations with his suggestions and rhetoric and actions without having a clue on what new foundations were there to start afresh.
He gave powers to the renter over the property-owner as if the person renting in turn had more rights to the property.
He gave a sense that the worker owned his job.
His egalitarian subjection was without method and more in line with madness.
Look at what has happened to Jamaica since as testimony to the failure of a warped and foolish mentality. </div></div>

Your view appears to be that of someone who;
a) is a supporter of the status quo
b) someone who does not understand what socialism is and
c) does not see the similarity between what Manley was trying to do and what the Cuban Revolution HAD done.

I totally agree with you that as things worked out, the foundations for what Manley was attempting were not there. The reasons were manifold but first and foremost wers the lack of sophistication amongst the Jamaican electorate due to the traditional colonial mindset and the overwhelming anti-socialist propaganda from the United States which the Jamaican electorate was ill-equipped to handle.

In Cuba and very shortly after the revolution, anyone who had paid rent for 25 years OWNED the place they were renting.

The old latifundia work patterns were overturned giving workers far more control over the work conditions with workers, unions and professional experts all taking part in the decision making processes related to work.

I'm not sure what you mean by "egalitarian subjection" but assume it generally means equalizing economic and societal relations.

All of these things that the Cubans have done all worked but they all required the underpinnings of the new socialist economy and the support of the people which Manley not only did not have but which the United States made sure he would not get.

There was no new democratic Jamaican economic or political order. There was the same old corruption that made any significant change impossible.

Manley's attempts at making things better for all Jamaicans did not work for the same reasons that none of his predecessors nor any of his successors attempts at improving Jamaica succeeded and that is a countrywide mindset stuck in the old ways of doing things.

Apparently, the Devil the Jamaican people know is better than the Devil they don't know.

The big point is that neo-liberal capitalism and the globalized race-to-the-bottom economy only works in the Developed and the Developing world economies.

It does not work in countries like Jamaica because it cannot.

It never has, it never can.

It corrupts everything as does any totalitarian form.

Sure, Manley because he was so different in his approach to change and because of what followed those attempts makes an easy target.

His mistake was in overestimating the courage, political acumen and foresight of his constituency .

None of his predecessors or his successors made those errors in judgement and have treated the electorate as the sheep they are.

The "warped and foolish mentalities" abound.

Feel free to point out any underdeveloped country where neo-liberal economies and multi-party electoral systems in thrall to those economies has succeeded in substantially changing societal and economic problems and your argument makes sense.

Failing that, you are prescribing more of the same.

Building "on the strengths and correcting the failures of our socio-political scenario " would mean tearing down those institutions as they cannot be reformed or they certainly would have been not only after 50 years of their existence in Jamaica but anywhere in the Third World .

**franksterr** · 06-29-2010, 02:08 AM

Re: Manley

Q3210

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley`s change was unreal. What he should have done was to build on the strengths and correct the failures of our socio-political scenario.</div></div>
Which is exactly what he did set about doing.
Food security, for all regardless of social status.
Free education for all, up to tertiary levels.
Free health care
Local and community development and pride.
Housing
Women rights
Children rights.
Government Land lease to prove landless peasant farmers.
These changes are necessary for true development of Jamaica.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead he tore down the foundations with his suggestions and rhetoric and actions without having a clue on what new foundations were there to start afresh.</div></div>
Aren't you just totally ignoring the actions of the US?
Manley tore down nothing, the US with The IMF was the tool of neocolonialism in Jamaica.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKMspN-7Co&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoIJPwfsbqg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNKWBVVSWkc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He gave powers to the renter over the property-owner as if the person renting in turn had more rights to the property.</div></div>
Provide a link to this fact or was this just propaganda that you still believe to be true.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He gave a sense that the worker owned his job.
His egalitarian subjection was without method and more in line with madness.
Look at what has happened to Jamaica since as testimony to the failure of a warped and foolish mentality. </div></div>

Job security is what unions everywhere is about, Manley built more houses and educated more Jamaican than any previous Government.
What has happen to Jamaica is what has happen to every newly independent country that has lost its battle with neo-colonialism.
I think you are ignore the facts and propagating the lies of the CIA

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