<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley`s change was unreal. What he should have done was to build on the strengths and correct the failures of our socio-political scenario.</div></div>
Which is exactly what he did set about doing.
Food security, for all regardless of social status. <span style="color: #FF0000">[color:#FF0000]Really every year the amount of locally produced food fell...And in 76-80 tyhere certainly was not food security no way no how did that distribution of posion flour, marriage of flour and bake beans never happen... </span>
Free education for all, up to tertiary levels. <span style="color: #FF0000"> Primary education was free before 72, so was technical high schools and Junior secondaries.. The only place that charged was the traditional secondaries.. Tution was then free. But tution was never the largest cost, there was food,sports equipment, clothes, books.. Food was never free at highschools. It was theoretically free.. then there was the diasater of shift schools</span>
Free health care <span style="color: #CC0000"> Free heath care predated Manley Jnr.. But there was always a two teir system.. With private practive.. Once Manley was in power there was a migration of doctors because he tried to mess with their private practice. I recall because I sat in clinic waiting for doctors that never came.. Note the Jamaian greatest heath caere success was the elimination of Maleria.. This was done by Jamaicans in the 1950s.</span>
Local and community development and pride. <span style="color: #CC0000"> So before Manley there was no pride in their communities ? or does that stem from the creation of garrisions </span>
Housing <span style="color: #FF6600"> bigest mistake he ever made.. Rather than make housing in the country he concentrated housing in the urban ceneters... What Portmore ????? NHT was a brilliant idea.. Was that Manley or did he not expand on a pre existing idea started by the greatest prime minister Jamaica ever had Donald Sangster ????? </span>
Women rights
Children rights. <span style="color: #CC0000"> I appluaded I recall when he removed the stigma of bastards. and Leandros cartoon...One question was did Jamaicans ever consider illigitamatasy a problem ????? He never made corpral punish ment a crime, he never removed it from schools, he never came out clearly and stated the whipping of children by parents was wrong.. He did remove it as a punishment in the justicce system </span>
Government Land lease to prove landless peasant farmers. <span style="color: #CC0000"> Yeah I experienced it!!! After two years how many people were left farming???? I saw the land that Reynolds Jamaica mines had in the cockpit country that was nationalised. theiur herds sold off and land distributed under land lease...I recall the enthusuiasm and then the fall pout I recall the sunden influx of honda 50's when the rude boys who got their peice of land siold their pesticides, equipment and fertilizers Land Lease was a failure (why they did it was because after the firat year they could not get theri produced sold and so they took the free stuff and exchanged it for cash!!!! .. I recall the so called idel land when they began to drain the great morass as it was considered idel.... And a farmer who was told he had to turn the last bit of primary forest in Santa Cruz mounbtain into use .. It was pure rockstone !!!! I was in a conversation about the great success that was Hornslow.. I also recall the wasted tommatos, the inability to distribute as the Agricultural marketing board could not do the job the higglers did!!!! A few years back.. Now they split up the land, much was abandoned after three years. I recall the piles of vegtables rotting as there was no market for it. I am for agriculture reform.. At my heart I am still a peasant farmer... I made a living in Jamaica at it some living. I never had a problem finding land to farm in Jamaica.. I had problems of legality of land.. A simple legal devise.. I let Doc Dudd deal with tale of land without water </span>
These changes are necessary for true development of Jamaica. <span style="color: #CC0000"> </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead he tore down the foundations with his suggestions and rhetoric and actions without having a clue on what new foundations were there to start afresh.</div></div>
Aren't you just totally ignoring the actions of the US?
Manley tore down nothing, the US with The IMF was the tool of neocolonialism in Jamaica.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He gave powers to the renter over the property-owner as if the person renting in turn had more rights to the property.</div></div>
Provide a link to this fact or was this just propaganda that you still believe to be true.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He gave a sense that the worker owned his job.
His egalitarian subjection was without method and more in line with madness.
Look at what has happened to Jamaica since as testimony to the failure of a warped and foolish mentality. </div></div>
Job security is what unions everywhere is about, Manley built more houses and educated more Jamaican than any previous Government.
What has happen to Jamaica is what has happen to every newly independent country that has lost its battle with neo-colonialism.
I think you are ignore the facts and propagating the lies of the CIA
Michael Manley helped lead Jamaica to independence from the British in 1962, and ten years later he was elected prime minister on the Labour Party ticket. But he did not follow a pro-Western course, and thus his government became a threat to the United States. The Nixon administration opposed Jamaica's support for a number of reasons. First, Jamaica supported Angola's leftist MPLA guerrillas, Castro's Cuba, and the Soviet Union. Second, Manley proposed democratic socialist reforms. Finally, an American multinational corporation operated an aluminum plant on the island, and the White House believed that Manley would move to nationalize it. However, Manley promised to allow the American company to continue to stay in the private sector -- and in return the American ambassador to Jamaica promised Manley that the United States would not interfere in his government.
In December 1975, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger visited Jamaica and told Manley that his government would have to make some changes if it were to receive trade credits. At the time of the Kissinger-Manley meeting, the CIA was already making covert plans to topple his government. The agency began clandestine shipments of weapons to conservative opposition groups in Jamaica. The CIA used a number of pro-Castro Cubans, one of whom was Luis Posada Carriles who had been an officer in Batista's secret police before the 1959 revolution.
A month after Kissinger's visit, the United States increased its embassy staff in Kingston by seven people. The CIA also orchestrated a series of strikes in the transportation, electricity, and telephone industries in an effort to further destabilize Manley's government. In addition,
THE CIA HOPED TO INSTILL MORE HAVOC BY POISONING A SHIPMENT OF FLOUR FROM GERMANY
As the economy weakened and social unrest rocked the island, the American multinational firm, Revere Copper and Brass, shut down after just four years of operation in Kingston.
The CIA secretly funded the conservative Jamaica Labour Party which opposed Manley. The CIA planned anti-government demonstrations. The agency also infiltrated Jamaica's security forces, often times bribing members in an effort to assassinate the prime minister. Three attempts to murder Manley failed in the last half of 1976. James Holt, a CIA officer, was accused of plotting with the military to overthrow the government.
Nevertheless, Manley was reelected in 1976. However, in the next four years, Jamaica's economy continued to plummet. After much bloodshed in 1980, Manley was defeated in his reelection bid in by Edward Seaga of the CIA-sponsored Jamaica Labour Party.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which is exactly what he did set about doing.
Food security, for all regardless of social status..
<span style="color: #FF0000">Really every year the amount of locally produced food fell...And in 76-80 tyhere certainly was not food security no way no how did that distribution of posion flour, marriage of flour and bake beans never happen</span>...
Free education for all, up to tertiary levels. <span style="color: #FF0000">Primary education was free before 72, so was technical high schools and Junior secondaries.. The only place that charged was the traditional secondaries.. Tution was then free. But tution was never the largest cost, there was food,sports equipment, clothes, books.. Food was never free at highschools. It was theoretically free.. then there was the diasater of shift schools </span>
Free health care <span style="color: #FF0000">Free heath care predated Manley Jnr.. But there was always a two teir system.. With private practive.. Once Manley was in power there was a migration of doctors because he tried to mess with their private practice. I recall because I sat in clinic waiting for doctors that never came.. Note the Jamaian greatest heath caere success was the elimination of Maleria.. This was done by Jamaicans in the 1950s. </span>Local and community development and pride.<span style="color: #FF0000"> So before Manley there was no pride in their communities ? or does that stem from the creation of garrisions
Housing bigest mistake he ever made.. Rather than make housing in the country he concentrated housing in the urban ceneters... What Portmore ????? NHT was a brilliant idea.. Was that Manley or did he not expand on a pre existing idea started by the greatest prime minister Jamaica ever had Donald Sangster ????? </span>Women rights
Children rights.<span style="color: #FF0000"> I appluaded I recall when he removed the stigma of bastards. and Leandros cartoon...One question was did Jamaicans ever consider illigitamatasy a problem ????? He never made corpral punish ment a crime, he never removed it from schools, he never came out clearly and stated the whipping of children by parents was wrong.. He did remove it as a punishment in the justicce system </span>
Government Land lease to prove landless peasant farmers<span style="color: #FF0000">. Yeah I experienced it!!! After two years how many people were left farming???? I saw the land that Reynolds Jamaica mines had in the cockpit country that was nationalised. theiur herds sold off and land distributed under land lease...I recall the enthusuiasm and then the fall pout I recall the sunden influx of honda 50's when the rude boys who got their peice of land siold their pesticides, equipment and fertilizers Land Lease was a failure (why they did it was because after the firat year they could not get theri produced sold and so they took the free stuff and exchanged it for cash!!!! .. I recall the so called idel land when they began to drain the great morass as it was considered idel.... And a farmer who was told he had to turn the last bit of primary forest in Santa Cruz mounbtain into use .. It was pure rockstone !!!! I was in a conversation about the great success that was Hornslow.. I also recall the wasted tommatos, the inability to distribute as the Agricultural marketing board could not do the job the higglers did!!!! A few years back.. Now they split up the land, much was abandoned after three years. I recall the piles of vegtables rotting as there was no market for it. I am for agriculture reform.. At my heart I am still a peasant farmer... I made a living in Jamaica at it some living. I never had a problem finding land to farm in Jamaica.. I had problems of legality of land.. A simple legal devise.. I let Doc Dudd deal with tale of land without water </span></div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“Manley's first term as prime minister (1972-76) was much more populist and nationalist in orientation than his second term. Manley advocated a "third path" development strategy that viewed Jamaica as a nonaligned, independent member of the Third World. This approach rejected both the Puerto Rican and Cuban models of development and sought to reverse democratically the inequitable distribution of wealth in Jamaica. Policies included the creation of rural health schemes, food subsidies, literacy campaigns, free secondary and higher education, a national minimum wage, equal pay for women, sugar cooperatives, and rent and price controls.”</div></div>
Where do you get your information from?
If the people cannot access the resources or services, it is in effect not there.
Anecdotal reports are good, but often time are limited to personal experience, a study research usually gives a truer and better idea of what was really happening.
“<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 82. A review of Seagals record in the four key economic sectors--agriculture, tourism, mining, and manufacturing/processing--illustrates&he continuing dominance of the state Aariculture Although the system of state-managed cooperatives largely has been abandoned, the government remains in firm contro l of Jamaica's agricultural sector. The state operates various marketing monopolies for agricultural products and largely determines the prices paid to farmers for their crops. In this area, Communist China, with its successful agricultural reforms, is pro bably more free market than Seagals Jamaica.
The Jamaica Commodity Trading Corporation, established in 1981 has a monopoly right to import a broad range of basic commodities including foodstuffs, fertilizers, and private motor vehicles. The government's po licy of importing food and subsidizing its price proved to be a major disincentive for domestic agricultural production.
Under strong U.S. pressure, the government agreed to reduce food subsidies gradually but, fearing political and social backlash, set u p a vast food stamp program supported by U.S. aid. Food stamps augmented by tons of American agricultural surplus provided under the U.S. PL 480 program, have damaged Jamaica's domestic agricultural market mechanism as severely as they have in dozens of o t her developing countries. States Carl Stone, Jamaica's foremost political scientist The existing Food Stamps Programme is mockery to any real commitment to local agriculture. Our poor people are being subsidized 3. Jamaica Labour Party, Chanec Without Cha o s. A National Proarammc for Rcconstruction October 1980, p. 12 4. Ibid 4to buy imported food when ou'r farmers caplt sell their produce because of low levels of consumer buying power.Il Bananas and sugar cane, two of Jamaica's most important agricultural e xports, continue to be handicapped by government controls and heavily politicized unions. Though Seaga complains about U.S. limits on sugar imports, the fact is that Jamaican sugar production has fallen so much.that the..island.for. several. years has bee n unable to fulfill its quota of allowed sugar sales to the U.S Banana production hit a 20-year low in 1984, achieving only 20 percent of the government's planned export target for the.British market Instead of allowing the free market to find a solution t o declining agricultural production, Seaga launched a vast new government project called AGRO-21 to develop one-sixth of Jamaican farmland. AGRO-21 is reminiscent of former Prime Minister Manleyls socialist agricultural policy. The government, for instance , is to be a venture partner Itto hold equity for the people,Il while the project's structure consists of "many agencies working together, coordinated by the AGRO-21 Secretariat. ll0 Government land is leased to farmers.
Seaga declared that !!all such leases will be subject to agreement to develop the land on the basis of an asreed farm Dlan which ensures that the land is neyer used in a manner contrary to the planned national interest.”</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where do you get your information from?
If the people cannot access the resources or services, it is in effect not there.
Anecdotal reports are good, but often time are limited to personal experience, a study research usually gives a truer and better idea of what was really happening.
</div></div>
Was anything I stated untrue ???? I have refuted every claim... except one.... Manley and his cadres were incompent..
Food security did not happen. Ask your parents if they were there in the 70's. or any one over 50 who lived then....
Free education was limited to free tutions to tradtional secondary schools. there was free primary education before manley jr.. And Jr seacondary schools were free.. So were technical colleges such as Steths and Staths, HTHS...
NHT was a extention of a Sangster policy..
Land lease failed because of the reasons I gave.. people who never ever farmed and did not understand marketing. After the initial enthusiam, lack of investment water made it unsustainable... Farming is not emotional attachment to land.. it is compentency, water, training.. giving people land, seeds None of this was forth coming by 1980 there was less local produced farmed than before 1972.. Tehre was less small farmers. .Jamaican consumtion of local goods fell because there was not enough beign produced.. Yam was firt imported in 1978! Where do I get my information from I remember it!!! Sugar ??? We had to import sugar to sell to fulfill the European comunity quota in 76.... Sugar production fell to that extent.. Bananas ??? Oh yeah production fell... I recall the debates in parliment.. I listend to the JIS.
Or do you recall when higglers were arrested for trying to impoet in manufactured goods.. oh statistics and studies... how bout when they tried to stop american apples at the airport ??? or was that a lie ????
Manley I will give him credit.. for two things.. Jamal.. Yet Jamaican literasy fell by 1980..
Bauxite Levy ???? Even Seaga agreed with that
Spanish being taught as a compulsery subject.. (He should have chosen Maderin in hind sight!)
There was a mass migration of doctors out of Jamaica.. That was the reason why the cuban doctors were brought in.. But they were limited and they were not as well trained as those out of UWI...
Talk all you want about statistics and study.. What I was there... I have made asertions that are irrefutable as to the efficasy of Manley.. The food security claim would have been laughable had it not been so tragic... We spent 74 onward trying to find the basics in the shop.. or was there no shortage of flour, cornmeal, cooking oil..
Or was the growth in Jamaican dollars till 74 not simply devaluation hiding falling value...
Was the attempt to drain the gran morass to plant rice a lie ???
Was the mico dams a glowing success ???
Was there not a free at point of use medical service before Manley ???
Why then did Jamaicans vote him out because he was succesful or as I mainatin moral banckrupt, incompentent, free from any ideas to improve a failing economy.. Rationaloise all you like that it was the CIA based on a failed disgrunted single agent,,, Who do you beleive Manley or Blum ??? Manley stated there was no evidence of CIA interferance in Jamaica or was he a liar as well ???
We voted Manley out because despite his charm and his ideals he had nothing to offer Jamaicans in 80 but more of the same.. .. I trust Jamaicans choices, we are the wisest people on the planet... Jamaican vote for greatest reason what gives them the best deal!
I wont talk about food subsidies.. Now waht was subsidied again ??? Basic food, Flour, Rice, Cooking oil, cornmeal, milk powder ... wonderful subsidisng yankee food stuffs....That was subsidised.. but it was not available. But then Manley development paradignm was to focus on the cities like Mao.. We peasants could go without.. So flour was avaialbe in Kingston but not in rural parts...
Guess those news reports of factories closing from 75 onwards was anencdotal...
Make your choice then I was there or do you believe some one who wrote this...<span style="font-weight: bold">The Jamaica Commodity Trading Corporation, established in 1981 </span>.. Then it was established by Seaga and his mob...
What a colossal waste of time. Arguing that ANY person who leads Jamaica's corrupt economic and electoral systems is to blame for the shape Jamaica is in today is just ignoring the elephant in the room.
I can understand the reasoning behind this and it is the desire for capitalism to NOT be the cause of Jamaica's problems along with the near totally corrupt twin party collusion with that corrupt economic form.
They go hand in hand. They do not work.
It is impossible for Jamaica's present economic form to lift Jamaica much beyond where it is today and I challenge anyone to point out any country in similar economic and social straits where the same economic and electoral forms have alleviated the dire conditions.
To blame Manley for trying something different makes only slightly less sense than saying Seaga et al made Jamaica a better place to live.
Of course to deny CIA/US intervention at the height of the Cold War is just to turn a blind eye on the reality of the world at that time.
The CIA admits they intervened. The methods used echo those used just a few years earlier in Allende's Chile.
To minimize the effects or deny them is beyond comprehension and blind allegiance to the failed political and economic systems in place can be the only reason.
Tuff Gong has the same viewpoint and we've argued the CIA thing for years.
Forget Manley, forget Seaga and focus on the political and economic systems that are in use and it is impossible to find any hope, any chance for serious change for the better not only in Jamaica but in the United States and especially throughout the Developing and Underdeveloped countries of the world.
The answer is democracy in both spheres.
Personally, I'm no longer going to attack or defend Seaga, Patterson, Manley or any person "elected" to lead Jamaica because they are powerless to effect change.
Further I will at every instance that this senseless bickering comes up point out that it is just that: senseless bickering about things and people that do not matter.
To get sucked into that argument is to waste time and effort and it leads
nowhere doesn't it?
The debate is whether the present economic and political forms are capable of lifting Jamaica out of the societal quagmire in which it finds itself today.
Wahalla
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was anything I stated untrue ???? I have refuted every claim... except one.... Manley and his cadres were incompent.. </div></div>
I have no doubt, that you believe what you say, but I would appreciate a little more that anecdotal stories, as we all know they can be prejudicial and bais.
In other words provide a link, from a credible source that supports your assertions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food security did not happen. Ask your parents if they were there in the 70's. or any one over 50 who lived then....
Free education was limited to free tutions to tradtional secondary schools. there was free primary education before manley jr.. And Jr seacondary schools were free.. So were technical colleges such as Steths and Staths, HTHS...
NHT was a extention of a Sangster policy..</div></div>
You seen to have missed the point of what I actually said, "<span style="font-weight: bold">Which is exactly what he did set about doing</span>". I never said Manley introduced or succeeded in any of these endeavors. But because he tried to achieved or further these ends among others he was persecuted along with most Jamaicans.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Land lease failed because of the reasons I gave.. people who never ever farmed and did not understand marketing. After the initial enthusiam, lack of investment water made it unsustainable... Farming is not emotional attachment to land.. it is compentency, water, training.. giving people land, seeds None of this was forth coming by 1980 there was less local produced farmed than before 1972.. Tehre was less small farmers. .Jamaican consumtion of local goods fell because there was not enough beign produced.. Yam was firt imported in 1978! Where do I get my information from I remember it!!! Sugar ??? We had to import sugar to sell to fulfill the European comunity quota in 76.... Sugar production fell to that extent.. Bananas ??? Oh yeah production fell... I recall the debates in parliment.. I listend to the JIS.
Or do you recall when higglers were arrested for trying to impoet in manufactured goods.. oh statistics and studies... how bout when they tried to stop american apples at the airport ??? or was that a lie ????</div></div>
If you read my post you would see that some if not most of that happening under Seaga, maybe the media propaganda is confounding your memory.
Give me a link, I cannot argue based on your memory alone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley I will give him credit.. for two things.. Jamal.. Yet Jamaican literasy fell by 1980..
Bauxite Levy ???? Even Seaga agreed with that
Spanish being taught as a compulsery subject.. (He should have chosen Maderin in hind sight!)
There was a mass migration of doctors out of Jamaica.. That was the reason why the cuban doctors were brought in.. But they were limited and they were not as well trained as those out of UWI...</div></div>
PROPAGANDA
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Talk all you want about statistics and study.. What I was there... I have made asertions that are irrefutable as to the efficasy of Manley.. The food security claim would have been laughable had it not been so tragic... We spent 74 onward trying to find the basics in the shop.. or was there no shortage of flour, cornmeal, cooking oil..
Or was the growth in Jamaican dollars till 74 not simply devaluation hiding falling value...
Was the attempt to drain the gran morass to plant rice a lie ???
Was the mico dams a glowing success ???
Was there not a free at point of use medical service before Manley ???
Why then did Jamaicans vote him out because he was succesful or as I mainatin moral banckrupt, incompentent, free from any ideas to improve a failing economy.. Rationaloise all you like that it was the CIA based on a failed disgrunted single agent,,, Who do you beleive Manley or Blum ??? Manley stated there was no evidence of CIA interferance in Jamaica or was he a liar as well ???
We voted Manley out because despite his charm and his ideals he had nothing to offer Jamaicans in 80 but more of the same.. .. I trust Jamaicans choices, we are the wisest people on the planet... Jamaican vote for greatest reason what gives them the best deal!
I wont talk about food subsidies.. Now waht was subsidied again ??? Basic food, Flour, Rice, Cooking oil, cornmeal, milk powder ... wonderful subsidisng yankee food stuffs....That was subsidised.. but it was not available. But then Manley development paradignm was to focus on the cities like Mao.. We peasants could go without.. So flour was avaialbe in Kingston but not in rural parts...
Guess those news reports of factories closing from 75 onwards was anencdotal...</div></div>
DESTABILIZATION....Using food as a weapon is an old CIA tactic usually refered as "making the economy scream" so loud your own people will crucify there own leaders....it obviously worked on you.
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Manley step back an allow Seaga to take the powers of state to forestall an all out civil war. In The end They vote him back in and his party went on to rule for an unprecedented 4 terms.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make your choice then I was there or do you believe some one who wrote this...<span style="font-weight: bold">The Jamaica Commodity Trading Corporation, established in 1981 </span>.. Then it was established by Seaga and his mob...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here we go again.
What a colossal waste of time. Arguing that ANY person who leads Jamaica's corrupt economic and electoral systems is to blame for the shape Jamaica is in today is just ignoring the elephant in the room.
I can understand the reasoning behind this and it is the desire for capitalism to NOT be the cause of Jamaica's problems along with the near totally corrupt twin party collusion with that corrupt economic form.
They go hand in hand. They do not work.
It is impossible for Jamaica's present economic form to lift Jamaica much beyond where it is today and I challenge anyone to point out any country in similar economic and social straits where the same economic and electoral forms have alleviated the dire conditions.
To blame Manley for trying something different makes only slightly less sense than saying Seaga et al made Jamaica a better place to live.
Of course to deny CIA/US intervention at the height of the Cold War is just to turn a blind eye on the reality of the world at that time.
The CIA admits they intervened. The methods used echo those used just a few years earlier in Allende's Chile.
To minimize the effects or deny them is beyond comprehension and blind allegiance to the failed political and economic systems in place can be the only reason.
Tuff Gong has the same viewpoint and we've argued the CIA thing for years.
Forget Manley, forget Seaga and focus on the political and economic systems that are in use and it is impossible to find any hope, any chance for serious change for the better not only in Jamaica but in the United States and especially throughout the Developing and Underdeveloped countries of the world.
The answer is democracy in both spheres.
Personally, I'm no longer going to attack or defend Seaga, Patterson, Manley or any person "elected" to lead Jamaica because they are powerless to effect change.
Further I will at every instance that this senseless bickering comes up point out that it is just that: senseless bickering about things and people that do not matter.
To get sucked into that argument is to waste time and effort and it leads
nowhere doesn't it?
The debate is whether the present economic and political forms are capable of lifting Jamaica out of the societal quagmire in which it finds itself today.
</div></div>
You are on point, most people do not want to hear much less discuss it....why?
I think it is because they feel it will never happen, so they refuse to entertain the impossible....I say take a look at Gandhi, Martin, and Mandela.
<span style="font-weight: bold">You seen to have missed the point of what I actually said, "Which is exactly what he did set about doing". I never said Manley introduced or succeeded in any of these endeavors. But because he tried to achieved or further these ends among others he was persecuted along with most Jamaicans.</span>..
Did Seaga, Sangster, Norman, Shearer not have these intentions ?????? The difference is simply Manleys Jr rhetoric and his incompetence..
Blaming the CIA for failing Jamaican agriculture was not even tried by the PNP. Manley was incompentent.. Good intentions dont count.. What he had when he started and where he ended was the only evide4nce.. The facts stand Jamaica net GDP fell in real terms not interms of Jamaica dollar but any otehr bench mark, Health service was degraded, School investment fell, education results fell, production fell.. Those are facts. He and his ilk were the custotians and they did it. Blaming hte CIA and every ones even he admitted that it was a fallasy...Manley himself stated that or was he wrong ????
DYOR on land lease and it failure.. Check out investment.. However the statistic saved were questioned at the time as they had been massaged..
My favorite statistic as a child was in 75 a Teacher claimed that 85 % of children now had a seacondary education.. I poionted out that this was a lie and backed it up with facts that my local schools I named over 10 schools less than 10% had this oppertunity, that the school next to the tradtional highschool had for the last 7 years not had any one attend the high school . And the same statistic vs ancedote was used as me being wrong.. I was right.. how check out the external exam results.. compare the % rise and you would find that the rate of increase remained the same prior to Manley then pre and post 78.. 5 years was when the results..
By the way ever asked who bought the fertilizer and pesticides that those proto farmers sold ?????? Land lease was a failure !! But then it actually benifited a class of Jamaican farmer and led to an increase in production...The goveremnt in the 70's actually subsidised not only sugar but weed!
As promised I am responding to Wahalla's continuing waste of time in discussing the people who lead the failed systems of Jamaica rather than the underlying causes of the failures..
What a colossal waste of time. Arguing that ANY person who leads Jamaica's corrupt economic and electoral systems is to blame for the shape Jamaica is in today is just ignoring the elephant in the room.
I can understand the reasoning behind this and it is the desire for capitalism to NOT be the cause of Jamaica's problems along with the near totally corrupt twin party collusion with that corrupt economic form.
They go hand in hand. They do not work.
It is impossible for Jamaica's present economic form to lift Jamaica much beyond where it is today and I challenge anyone to point out any country in similar economic and social straits where the same economic and electoral forms have alleviated the dire conditions.
To blame Manley for trying something different makes only slightly less sense than saying Seaga et al made Jamaica a better place to live.
Of course to deny CIA/US intervention at the height of the Cold War is just to turn a blind eye on the reality of the world at that time.
The CIA admits they intervened. The methods used echo those used just a few years earlier in Allende's Chile.
To minimize the effects or deny them is beyond comprehension and blind allegiance to the failed political and economic systems in place can be the only reason.
Tuff Gong has the same viewpoint and we've argued the CIA thing for years.
Forget Manley, forget Seaga and focus on the political and economic systems that are in use and it is impossible to find any hope, any chance for serious change for the better not only in Jamaica but in the United States and especially throughout the Developing and Underdeveloped countries of the world.
The answer is democracy in both spheres.
Personally, I'm no longer going to attack or defend Seaga, Patterson, Manley or any person "elected" to lead Jamaica because they are powerless to effect change.
Further I will at every instance that this senseless bickering comes up point out that it is just that: senseless bickering about things and people that do not matter.
To get sucked into that argument is to waste time and effort and it leads
nowhere doesn't it?
The debate is whether the present economic and political forms are capable of lifting Jamaica out of the societal quagmire in which it finds itself today.
_________________________
Johnnycakes
"In the world today millions of children sleep in the streets.
Not one is Cuban."
Manley was given all the support for trying, but where he failed he lost it.
He failed big time. He took Jamaica down a path of lies, the wickedest being what he called the 1976 national state of emergency.
btw. Albert Spy Robinson passed on some time this year in the USA.
The state of emergency was a monumental infringement on the rights of Jamaicans. It was called only because of a bloop and blunder within the PNP leadership that would have caused embarasment and possibly loss at the up coming 1976 elections.
Well they suceeded in wining again after locking up much of the JLP loyalist and leaders such as Pearnel Charles and |BaBSY |gRANGE.
Read about the history of the 1976 state of emergency and also about the enquiry held afterwards that brought to fore the other side of Manley that the PNP have tried to keep hidden.
Q3210,
The fact remains that Manley, Seaga and all the leaders of Jamaica operate within economic and electoral systems that are failed systems; are systems that cannot work, have never worked in improving the lives of Jamaicans since before independence.
Jamaican independence was marked only by a change in the top leadership in the government.
The economic structure remained unchanged much as the U.S. economic structure remained unchanged after the American revolution and so the lives of Jamaicans remain unchanged.
Life is not improving regardless of whether the PNP, JLP, liberal or conservative politics are in place.
The lives of average people and more so the poor are worsening as the rich get richer and the poor poorer and more numerous.
Why will you not address this issue?
Do you honestly believe that the two totalitarian systems ; economic and electoral can be made to work and if so how.
If so, where has this been done before in a similar situation?
Manley had the support of what you call economically powerless people. Those very numbers have led to the overthrow of the Bolsheviks during the 1917 revolution, to the toppling of Batistuta by Castro, so do not under rate your very kind.
The effect of the organized private sector can be broken, only thing is Jamaica has yet to find a way to organize itself to do it and without a trustworthy and committed leader, it ain`t gonna happen.
Manley failed because he had best what a lip could say but less what hands, feet and a brain could do.
He was a liar too, making him a loser.
At least you can see that he was a loser.
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