Manley

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q3210,
The fact remains that Manley, Seaga and all the leaders of Jamaica operate within economic and electoral systems that are failed systems; are systems that cannot work, have never worked in improving the lives of Jamaicans since before independence.

Jamaican independence was marked only by a change in the top leadership in the government.
The economic structure remained unchanged much as the U.S. economic structure remained unchanged after the American revolution and so the lives of Jamaicans remain unchanged.

Life is not improving regardless of whether the PNP, JLP, liberal or conservative politics are in place.

The lives of average people and more so the poor are worsening as the rich get richer and the poor poorer and more numerous.

Why will you not address this issue?

Do you honestly believe that the two totalitarian systems ; economic and electoral can be made to work and if so how.

If so, where has this been done before in a similar situation?
</div></div>

I guess my skull must be too thick.
It has taken a few knocks.
No I never once said that the system now that we have continuously used from 1948 will work.
I have no qualms on what you emphasize.
But first we have got to admit, all of us spontaneously, that we have been living under a FAILED state for far too many years.
We have what is called Local Govt. divided into parish councils. In other words we have 14 governments within this island that bicker and banter over scarce benefits with the sole aim of remaining in power where their tentacles of social destuction continue by their corrupt practices unheeded by a lethargic and dinasouric electorate too concerned with individualism and name brands.
Well if you do have a hungry and miseducated populace, we might ask just what can one think they`d want to make Greater Jamaica be of benefit to Jamaicans and not only to what our culture has instilled in our brains to that of party loyalty.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

[
I guess my skull must be too thick.
It has taken a few knocks.
No I never once said that the system now that we have continuously used from 1948 will work.
I have no qualms on what you emphasize.
But first we have got to admit, all of us spontaneously, that we have been living under a FAILED state for far too many years.
We have what is called Local Govt. divided into parish councils. In other words we have 14 governments within this island that bicker and banter over scarce benefits with the sole aim of remaining in power where their tentacles of social destuction continue by their corrupt practices unheeded by a lethargic and dinasouric electorate too concerned with individualism and name brands.
Well if you do have a hungry and miseducated populace, we might ask just what can one think they`d want to make Greater Jamaica be of benefit to Jamaicans and not only to what our culture has instilled in our brains to that of party loyalty. [/quote]


Sorry Q3210,
You cannot both say that your skull is too thick and then wrote what followed which was right on the money. You understand the situation quite well and are more intimately acquainted with the minutia of the situation so I will ask you.
The Jamaican people are not happy with the status quo. Do THEY as a whole blame Manley, Seaga, and the other leaders of both parties for Jamaica's ongoing malaise or did I understand you to mean that they (like many people in the U.S.) blame one PARTY or the other even though the policies of both parties do not differ in the main?
Is there any trend island wide toward saying that BOTH parties are to blame ?

Are there any beginnings of the recognition that the economic system has not and cannot alleviate but only worsen Jamaica's ills?

I tend to have a world view of how the multi-party electoral systems and totalitarian economic systems (capitalism) both deny democracy and any real power to the people to effect change under those systems.

IMO It would take a tremendously gifted and charismatic newcomer or some way to convey to the Jamaican people what they so far seem to be unable to see; the failure of what is and the need for something else that works...

IMO the propaganda machine is in control of their minds and has them running around in useless and wasteful arguments and fights rather than putting their energies toward things that will work.

What are your thoughts on these things?

[barosa]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Free education for all, up to tertiary levels. Primary education was free before 72, <span style="font-weight: bold">so was technical high schools</span> and Junior secondaries.. The only place that charged was the traditional secondaries.. Tution was then free. But tution was never the largest cost, there was food,sports equipment, clothes, books.. Food was never free at highschools. It was theoretically free.. then there was the diasater of shift schools</div></div>
Not being a participant in this debate until now, I'm only here to set the record straight on a minor mistake. There must have been some &quot;hanky panky&quot; going on for my four years well before '72, when I had to shell out an annual school fee as a student at Kingston Tecnical High School. Maybe it was the start of the extortion rackets so common today..

Sorry to interrupt, you may carry on or continue...
____________________________

Just like oil, the truth always float to the top

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

Wahalla

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did Seaga, Sangster, Norman, Shearer not have these intentions ?????? The difference is simply Manleys Jr rhetoric and his incompetence..</div></div>

The difference is that he set about doing it in a real and constructive manner that led the world and all who study the situation to accredit him with doing the most in these regards for Jamaica and Jamaicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XEvuRMoAWA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blaming the CIA for failing Jamaican agriculture was not even tried by the PNP. Manley was incompentent.. Good intentions dont count.. What he had when he started and where he ended was the only evide4nce.. The facts stand Jamaica net GDP fell in real terms not interms of Jamaica dollar but any otehr bench mark, Health service was degraded, School investment fell, education results fell, production fell.. Those are facts. He and his ilk were the custotians and they did it. Blaming hte CIA and every ones even he admitted that it was a fallasy...Manley himself stated that or was he wrong ????</div></div>

I am not blaming the CIA, it is a matter of historical fact, the CIA has taken credit for destroying the Manley government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH8Vd5WOii4&amp;feature=related

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100418/focus/focus4.html

Please provide the link, wherein Manley said it was his fault or something close to that?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DYOR on land lease and it failure.. Check out investment.. However the statistic saved were questioned at the time as they had been massaged..

My favorite statistic as a child was in 75 a Teacher claimed that 85 % of children now had a seacondary education.. I poionted out that this was a lie and backed it up with facts that my local schools I named over 10 schools less than 10% had this oppertunity, that the school next to the tradtional highschool had for the last 7 years not had any one attend the high school . And the same statistic vs ancedote was used as me being wrong.. I was right.. how check out the external exam results.. compare the % rise and you would find that the rate of increase remained the same prior to Manley then pre and post 78.. 5 years was when the results.. </div></div>

I can quote all kind of stats too, but thats nonsensical with out corroborating links

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way ever asked who bought the fertilizer and pesticides that those proto farmers sold ?????? Land lease was a failure !! But then it actually benifited a class of Jamaican farmer and led to an increase in production...The goveremnt in the 70's actually subsidised not only sugar but weed! </div></div>

You are full of pure CIA propaganda, no substance.

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Free education for all, up to tertiary levels. Primary education was free before 72, <span style="font-weight: bold">so was technical high schools</span> and Junior secondaries.. The only place that charged was the traditional secondaries.. Tution was then free. But tution was never the largest cost, there was food,sports equipment, clothes, books.. Food was never free at highschools. It was theoretically free.. then there was the diasater of shift schools</div></div>
Not being a participant in this debate until now, I'm only here to set the record straight on a minor mistake. There must have been some &quot;hanky panky&quot; going on for my four years well before '72, when I had to shell out an annual school fee as a student at Kingston Tecnical High School. Maybe it was the start of the extortion rackets so common today..

Sorry to interrupt, you may carry on or continue...
____________________________

Just like oil, the truth always float to the top



</div></div>

Wahalla is trying to work from a faulty, propaganda filled memory.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Manley

Those economically powerless only have power when economic capitslist economic policies are suspended.

This can only be done by the use of violent uprising.

That Was not the case during the Manley 70's era Jamaica .

That was the case in the Bolshevik and all successful revolutions.

Manley had no intentions of doing any such thing.

He simply wanted to function Within the capitalist system, but not as the ecnonmic colony as Jamaica has been since 1494.

Remember his exhortation of, &quot;THE NEW WORLD ECONOMIC ORDER.&quot;??
Sound familiar??

Like in the year 2010!!!!&quot;

The same thing the world is now clambering after.

........ only too late.

And until Jamaica can Function under conditions That are nit as an economic colony, There will always be regular uprisings.

During the history of Jamaica only foreigners And their surrogates enjoy the benefits of it's economy.

The majority have been repressed and otherwise used as chattel slaves and near chattel slaves support the economy.

That is exclusively for the benefit of colonial masters .

That is still the case in today's Jamaica.

Jamaica has still not achieved equal opportunity for all.

And naturally the colonial masters are dead set against it.

And is just as prepared to resist it with All tools available.

And tools They have.

Including majority of the so 'educated' blacks And near blacks.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley had the support of what you call economically powerless people. Those very numbers have led to the overthrow of the Bolsheviks during the 1917 revolution, to the toppling of Batistuta by Castro, so do not under rate your very kind.
The effect of the organized private sector can be broken, only thing is Jamaica has yet to find a way to organize itself to do it and without a trustworthy and committed leader, it ain`t gonna happen.
Manley failed because he had best what a lip could say but less what hands, feet and a brain could do.
He was a liar too, making him a loser.
At least you can see that he was a loser. </div></div>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

Dr. Dudd,

You've been listening to Fidel Castro haven't you ?

I think Manley as a socialist was attempting social and economic reforms which are normal after socialist revolutions but without the benefit of a Jamaican revolution.
The Jamaican people were not ready for a true revolution and that attitude along with the Cold War intervention of the United States doomed any serious changes in the status quo.
As a result Manley, socialism and any thoughts of revolution have been very low in the thinking of a majority of Jamaicans.

Not too dissimilar to conditions in Guatemala, Honduras and a number of other countries where severe penalties were exacted by the capitalist world for the defiance of those people.

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

ON JUNE 22, 1976, Prime Minister Michael Manley addressed the House of Representatives on the State of Emergency declared three days earlier on June 19. This was the first opportunity the people of Jamaica would have had to hear specifics on the reasons for and consequences of the declaration of the State of Emergency.

Manley was very specific in his presentation but some vital facts were omitted or distorted which were critical for public understanding of the true purpose of the declaration.

There were some principal reasons for the declaration and some lesser ones undoubtedly. The principal reason was, as the Prime Minister stated, &quot;A new and unique type of violence&quot; which had emerged.

Trench Town was the first instance. Gunmen went on a rampage firing a barrage of shots and barricading the roads, preventing police and firemen from entering the area for the first time.

What was omitted from this brief notation was the politics behind the rampage. Gunmen aligned with the People's National Party (PNP) launched a campaign of terror to politically cleanse the predominantly Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) sections of Trench Town and Jones Town by firing high-powered weapons into homes and setting them ablaze with Molotov cocktails. The towering billows of fire could be seen across the city. The attacks were repeated on several occasions over the next six weeks.

By then the political damage had been done. An estimated 3,000 residents of Trench Town fled to various areas of St. Catherine. The land on which they resided was now free to expand the new community of Arnett Gardens. But a large part of this once densely populated land remained empty for the next 30 years.

ORANGE LANE FIRE

Manley identified another instance of &quot;a new and unique type of violence&quot; occurring on May 19, 1976, at Orange Lane. Tenements were destroyed by arson leaving 500 residents homeless and 11 persons burned to death in the holocaust. Gunmen fired a barrage of shots to prevent firemen in the station next door from entering the area. Gunmen even committed the ultimate act of brutality, pulling babies from the arms of some fleeing mothers, tossing them back into the flaming houses. This act of savagery, which stands out as one of the most barbarous in Jamaican history, was condemned by Manley in his presentation as another &quot;new and unique type of violence&quot; which precipitated the need for a State of Emergency.

What Manley did not say was that the instigators, once again, were gunmen aligned with the PNP. Although the political identity of the terrorists was generally known by persons who lived in the inner city, it was never officially determined until Mr. Justice Small, who presided over a commission of enquiry on the Orange Lane Fire, decided to hear certain witnesses who, out of fear, wished to be heard in secret. Justice Small, in a secret report, identified the terrorists as supporters of the PNP originating from Arnett Gardens. The secret report was never published.

UNIQUE TERRORISM

Had Manley given full disclosure on these two pivotal events as unique instances of terrorism to be decisively stamped out without wrongly implicating the JLP, he would have had full political support. But he claimed that these acts &quot;served a double purpose of embarrassing the economy and undermining the democratically elected government.&quot; This clearly labelled the two atrocities as acts of terror instigated by the JLP against the Government, deliberately paving the way for Government to declare the State of Emergency to target the JLP.

If there was any further doubt that the Government was launching a devious plot to entrap its political opponents, all doubts were demolished by Manley's further allegations in his presentation in which he blamed the JLP for discrediting the electoral system, undermining the democratically-elected Government and, of spreading hysteria by accusing the Government of being communists. This caused the entrepreneurial classes to export their money, slow down business activity and cease any expansion.

MESSIANIC COMPLEX

This is a clear picture of a leader with a messianic complex who could not accept that these positions taken by the Opposition were part of its legitimate role in an open Westminster system of government. Manley obviously regarded criticism as attacks on Government, as is the case in socialist types of governments where harsh criticism of the state is not tolerated. This only reinforced the allegation of Manley's deep socialist commitment. It is the role of government to refute or dispute such criticism by advancing convincing arguments to the contrary, not by locking up the Opposition in a State of Emergency to incapacitate and immobilise opposition support.

But worse was to come. Manley's trump card was his claim that the security forces warned that a new wave of violence would be launched at the end of June to coincide with the staging of Carifesta, the regional cultural expo. He compared this to the holding of another international conference on January 5, between the IMF and World Bank with the Group of 24 Developing Nations at the Pegasus Hotel where a large turnout of the international press and diplomatic corps was present.

An anti-apartheid protest was held outside the hotel, organised by PNP supporters led by Government ministers to denounce the presence of a South African delegate. But the media also got a spectacular view of the distant skyline of fire as Trench Town burned. The international media reported on the political mayhem to the detriment of Jamaica. Manley rightfully did not wish a repeat performance but deliberately failed to say that the damage was done by gunmen on a rampage of arson and killings in Trench Town.

These were some of the negatives plaguing the Government which Manley chose to ignore while focusing on ways and means of implicating the Opposition in the sliding fortunes of his government.

CROWNING BLOW

The crowning blow to the web of fabrications which Manley weaved in his presentation in the House of Representatives would not be revealed until a commission of enquiry in 1978 on matters concerning the State of Emergency, presided over by Chief Justice Kenneth Smith, uncovered that the head of both intelligence agencies of government, the Special Branch of the Police Force and the Military Intelligence Unit (MIU) of the Jamaica Defence Force, never advised Manley of any potential threat to national security during Carifesta and, indeed, Deputy Commissioner Curtis Griffiths, head of the Special Branch, testified to the commission that he knew nothing about the intention to declare a State of Emergency; he read of it in the press although he was the chief intelligence officer of government. Captain Carl Marsh, in charge of the MIU also gave devastating testimony. He advised that there was no need for a State of Emergency.

The statements by the intelligence chiefs and the secret testimony on the brutal roles of PNP supporters in the Orange Lane Fire were not publicly known before the declaration of the State of Emergency. If full disclosure had been made, the declaration could not have been used as a political instrument to stifle the Opposition.

The path would still have been open, however, to proclaim a state of emergency to genuinely deal with &quot;new and unique types of violence&quot; if the approach had been stripped of politics. This would have created a platform of joint commitment by both parties to effectively stamp out violent crime. Instead, the political campaign of state terror generated such ill-will, aroused such passions and developed such a lust for vengeance that, in the end, the State of Emergency spawned tribal conflicts on a scale that reached the level of a near civil war. The forces activated by that war, once the electoral outcome was settled, virtually detached themselves and progressed on their own as gang members absorbed by other areas of gangsterism: narcotics, extortion and robbery.

To be continued.


Sources: Struggle in the Periphery by Michael Manley; Politics of Power by Pearnel Charles; various ministry papers, archives of The Daily Gleaner.

Edward Seaga was a former Prime Minister. He is now a Distinguished Fellow at the University of the West Indies. Email: [email protected].

Though the above is authored by Edward Seaga, please point out any lies that you might wish to hear about.

[Q3210]

Re: Manley


Sorry Q3210,
You cannot both say that your skull is too thick and then wrote what followed which was right on the money. You understand the situation quite well and are more intimately acquainted with the minutia of the situation so I will ask you.
The Jamaican people are not happy with the status quo. Do THEY as a whole blame Manley, Seaga, and the other leaders of both parties for Jamaica's ongoing malaise or did I understand you to mean that they (like many people in the U.S.) blame one PARTY or the other even though the policies of both parties do not differ in the main?
Is there any trend island wide toward saying that BOTH parties are to blame ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> On the cover or surface condemnation is all, but nothing of scholastic in depth rebuttals <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>


Are there any beginnings of the recognition that the economic system has not and cannot alleviate but only worsen Jamaica's ills?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> Not at all. What is, is that there is hope that Golding`s regime would right the economics by lowering interest rates and whatever else. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

I tend to have a world view of how the multi-party electoral systems and totalitarian economic systems (capitalism) both deny democracy and any real power to the people to effect change under those systems.

IMO It would take a tremendously gifted and charismatic newcomer or some way to convey to the Jamaican people what they so far seem to be unable to see; the failure of what is and the need for something else that works...

IMO the propaganda machine is in control of their minds and has them running around in useless and wasteful arguments and fights rather than putting their energies toward things that will work.

What are your thoughts on these things?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> The people meaning the masses are equivalent to a herd of sheep. They on the whole are not capable of leading themselves.
The people are not politically aware and sufficiently educated for them to identify the finer causes of our destructive methods. What they do know is to be broke and hungry. When a money runs there way, they forget about thought and what are the causes.
The educated middle classes who fill political representative positions in both parties in parliament prefer to exploit the ignorance that abounds, instead of thinking that if a poor person is given opportunity to become self sufficient and creative, he too in positions of power will also benefit.
No, the classist superiority complex that abounds nullifies his thoughts of progress of true patriotism, but of selfish greed beneficial and comfortable that he has his own food on the table for those of interest to him and him alone, hence the polarized concept of party politics which has made Jamaica what it is today. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

[/quote]

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

Added to that is there is no sense of justice in Jamaica.
The subtle offices of Public Defender and Ambudsman are not what they ought to be. They offer mere lip service.
When investigations are to be done and results happen, nothing.
The offices that there are for social engineering are facades.
The amount of police atrocities committed go unheeded. The police are set up to investigate the police (BSI-Bureau Of Special Investigations) when citizens complain about their children being murdered like what takes place in Tivoli every now and again.
Where governments primary purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens, it tramples on those rights and the people sit and crouch in wonderment with no leadership, no one who knows better to lead in their interest, but for mere trivialities that We love to jump and make a song and dance about as typical happy Caribbean people.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Manley

Thanks Q3210,

Your analysis is about what I suspected but hoped was not so.

I do not imagine that Jamaica is that much different then from other countries in the world in similar societal shape and with similar economic woes.

Everyone here knows how much I respect and advocate Cuban style reformation of a society but it would appear that it takes someone as intelligent, as charismatic and as rare as Fidel Castro to spearhead any movement towards similar drastic changes in other countries and people like Fidel get beaten down elsewhere.

It appears that he was in the right spot at the right time. He was what the Cuban people, then ready for the revolution needed at exactly that moment in history.

The one big hope I would have is that with the ALBA nations breaking free of U.S. hegemony and with the U.S in economic difficulty and tied down in two debilitating no-win wars, any rising stars in the realm of political changes in other countries might now have a chance at success where previously they would have been eliminated early on.

In the meantime I guess all we can do is go back to the one on one discussions with those willing to listen and learn about what is possible and what is needed to get there.

We all deserve better than this.

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

We surely do, but we somehow plug on with what there is getting by with minimal gain and accepting the opportunities lost in lethargic despair.

[jah_yout]

Re: Manley

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food security did not happen. Ask your parents if they were there in the 70's. or any one over 50 who lived then....</div></div>

&quot;food security&quot; is what exactly?

anyhow i were there---jamaica in the 70's --the magical decade of my childhood

we didn't have &quot;food security&quot; depending on which 'we' that is...but we had something else---a sense of purpose;
we had a soul...the 80's i saw more mindless glorification of american values and goods...
anyhow---from my likkle experience...

respeck faada manley

[franksterr]

Re: Manley

Food security - The reliable availability of a sufficient quantity and quality of nutritious food for a population on a day to day basis.
Manley was trying to break our reliance on foreign food, by making us food sufficient.
Food sufficiency - is the ability to produce enough food to support a population.

The food insecurity we suffered was the <span style="font-weight: bold">responsibilty</span> of Manley but he was not the <span style="font-weight: bold">cause</span>, and should not bear the <span style="font-weight: bold">blame</span>.
I do not recall Jamaicans starving to death, yes some of us lived with hunger(before during and after Manley) and the fear of starvation.

[Q3210]

Re: Manley

In the 70s under Manley and the state trading corporation when basic food was short and sometimes absent from the shelves, one had to buy what was called a marriage.
For instance you could not buy flour unless you bought a tin or two of mackerel with it.
Condensed milk was married to Milo and so on.
One was forced to buy what was not wanted in order to get what was really needed.
That was food security for you under Manley`s failed state of affairs.