pastors to run state boards

[conscience]

Re: pastors to run state boards

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NGO's are not usually beneficial to th ecountry as much a s it is to the sponsors. they usually are PR agency of their benefactors,who usually use them to undermine the elected government of the countries they claim to support.
That is the new approach to destablizing countries by others with their own agendas,usually notin the best intrest of the general population.

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the NGOs i worked with in the 1990s in Kingston got no support, moral or financial, from the Jamaican government, which was fixated on the business sector. PR or not, the NGOs delivered services in some neighbourhoods that more stocious jamaicans, i guess the uptowners, felt were beyond them. Most NGOs are staffed and run by Jamaicans, and if it weren't for foreign donors, nuff a dem wouldnt have jobs.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't NGOs any organization that is not gov operated (non-Governmental Organizations). Including most private sector organizations.

[conscience]

Re: pastors to run state boards

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'AYATOLLAH' PORTIA? The Prime Minister and the pastors
published: Sunday | April 9, 2006


WE HAVE a knack in Jamaica for turning every potential solution into a problem. Against the background of unacceptably high levels of corruption, abuse of public funds, a rapid decline in standards of decency and general moral decay, a proposal to involve the clergy on state boards should be greeted with a chorus of approval.

Instead, we have spent the entire week catastrophising and devising conspiracy theories about the Talibanisation of the Jamaican state, with Prime Minister Portia Simpson Miller being a kind of female Ayatollah ready to impose Christian Sharia on the nation, and fatwas on those who would dare to disobey. No doubt Prime Minister Simpson Miller would have thought she would have been applauded by the country's elite and the chattering classes (she certainly is by the masses) for seeking to send a significant signal that she was serious about probity and accountability.

MORAL WISDOM

She is not naïve enough to believe that the clergy is the exclusive repository of moral wisdom or the sole guardians of public morality. She is not unaware of the many scandals in the Christian Church both here and abroad, and she must know that there are rascals among the clergy, too. But, it was not unreasonable for her to expect that commentators and others who take an interest in public discourse should see from her proposal to put pastors on state boards that she was making an important symbolic move to indicate a direction, a process, and not a destination. But, alas, it has turned out that she expected too much of those who influence public debate in the country.

Wilmot Perkins began his usual sermon on Monday morning by intoning in solemn terms about the danger of the Prime Minister's proposal. Orville Taylor on Radio Jamaica was adding his screams on the issue. Meanwhile, the Observer, not to be left out, warned in an editorial on Tuesday that "The Prime Minister, we submit, is treading on dangerous ground."

GOVERNANCE WITH RELIGION

The Gleaner was more restrained and sober in its editorial on the same day, but still felt it necessary to make the non sequitur point that "The Prime Minister needs to be careful how closely she aligns governance with religion".

Others have gone back into history to dig up atrocities committed by Christians and Muslims in their Holy Wars, attempts at forced conversions and campaigns against infidels and dissidents. Indeed, countless millions have died because of religious bigotry, hatred and persecution: an undeniable fact of history.

Besides, to this very day we see the terrors of religious extremism and barbarism in the actions of Islamic states and Islamists, and not so long ago we nessed Catholic and Protestant Christians killing one another in Northern Ireland. In addition, being so strongly influenced by the United States, we cannot help importing their own internal debate over the separation of church and state into our discussion of the Simpson Miller proposal. It's a storm in a teacup and much ado about nothing. Let's rationally and dispassionately examine the issue.

First, the concept of the separation of church and state does not mean, in its original articulation, that religion should have no influence in the public square. What it meant and ought to mean is that sectarianism, the elevation of one religion over others and the promotion of state religions, should be forbidden, for this usually involves discrimination and even persecution against secularists and people of other religious faiths.

The Puritans who fled England to establish the New Jerusalem in the United States were fleeing religious persecution and tyranny there. They worked to set up not a state with no religious influence but one which did not have a state religion and which respected freedom of conscience for every human being. There is absolutely no suggestion or indication from Prime Minister Portia Simpson Miller that she intends to elevate her Pentecostal-type flavour over other religious expressions.

Indeed, she made her call for Pastors on boards at a Seventh - day Adventist church. And on that same day she gave audience to the spiritual Leader of the Nation of Islam, the Hon Louis Farrakhan. The following day she worshipped with the Pentecostals but on Monday morning she had the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kingston say prayers at Cabinet meeting. In her searing-in speech she called on Jamaicans to join for prayer those who worship on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. You can't be more inclusive than that-for those three days cover all the religions which hold meetings in Jamaica, including the Bahais, the Hindus and the Muslims.

What we should fear is if we had any indication that she was elevating as public policy the sectarian views of any group or even imposing peculiarly Christian dogmas on the society. We have absolutely no indication that.

It is not as though the Prime Minister is going to ban carnival and Fully-Loaded on Sundays, mandate that the plazas start locking on Sundays and decree that all the go-go(exotic) clubs be closed. This will remain in a pluralistic society.

The church is the major institution in what can be called the moral sector. Because of the pressing need to emphasise enabling values and attitudes, the Prime Minister is by the symbolic action of having pastors on boards saying that ethical issues must form part of the decision-making process, just as technical and economic issues are critical.

People ask what technical or board-specific skills the Pastors would have to warrant their being on those boards. They bring a moral sensitivity and an ethical grounding to the discussion of public policy. Because of our general ignorance of philosophy, we assume that the technical, economic and business issues are value and philosophically-neutral. This is nonsense. The view that issues should only be discussed from a technical, economic and narrowly operational way is itself reflecting of a philosophical stance and is not ideologically-neutral. It masquerades as commonsensical, but the truth is, as the postmodernist philosophers insist there is no "view from nowhere", no Archimedean point. As Foucault says, we must unmask this power game disguised as unquestionable truth.

Of course, the Pastor is not the arbiter of morality and probity. You don't have to believe in God or go to church to be ethical and to be a person of probity. Boards should, as a rule, have only people of integrity and rectitude. Pastors should not have to be added for that dimension. But we have become carried away with the literalism of the issue, ignoring the powerful symbolic point which is being made by the proposed appointment of pastors. We are missing the forest for the trees, as we are wont to do in Jamaica.

Let's approach the issue another way: What is the potential harm or danger in the prime Minister's proposal? That religion would have too much influence on the state? You mean one pastor will necessarily turn a whole board into sectarian directions, overturning the civil liberties of the nation? Question: Is the appointment more likely to do more harm than good? Or is it not more likely to have a generally positive effect on public policy?

The PM has said she will involve other religions not just Christianity. But the fact is that aside from Rastafarianism all the other non-Christian religions in Jamaica are not even a blip on the radar. I say that as a journalist who has been covering religion since the 1970s.

Besides, the world religions share certain universalistic values. Indeed, they share common values with even secular humanists. What the Prime Minister is proposing is that public morality -- not specifically Christian morality-is protected by having the majority group in the moral sector in Jamaica included in public policy making. This is admirable and should be supported by all sections of the society, including agnostics and atheists. (Happily, the agnostic Anthony Abrahams has given some excellent arguments in favour of the Prime Minister's proposal).

There are certain public goods which religion can facilitate and the Prime Minister has sagaciously enlisted the majority religion to do so. Excellent.

I myself am thoroughly opposed to religious people's exercising power. Too many religious people are bigoted, prejudiced, close-minded, anti-intellectual, narrow and obscurantist. I would bitterly oppose any Christian party running on a Fundamentalist, Born again platform. These people who are taking direct commands from God can justify all manner of atrocities and evil in the name of God. Remember, in their theodicy God does not need any justification for any action He takes and if they are speaking for God neither do they! I prefer to live in a secular state rather than a Christian, Islamic or any religious state. I cherish the freedoms bequeathed by the Enlightenment.

But what Portia Simpson Miller is proposing does nothing to threaten separation of church and state or pluralism. She is simply seeing to strengthen our economic and social foundations by strengthening the influence of the moral sector. She wants to ensure that public policy is driven by larger ethical concerns, not narrow operational issues. I understand the fears of some of the objectors. But they are imposing somebody's else debate and "issues" on us.

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Again i [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70458-applaud.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70458-applaud.gif[/img]u for bringing this view forward.

[conscience]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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The same money that was ripped off from the Jamaicans and friends of Jamaica living overseas. This is funny if the State can't educate kids sitting on hard benches at school how is it going to be any more successful with so-called E-Learning?

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Why must you constantly criticise, and not to help improve but to show people up as incompetent, this is not good energy.

The article explained where the money came from (taxes from incoming international calls), the person who wrote the article has been doing it since the 70's, I mean, com on, at least give him some respect for his authority on the subject of religion in Jamaica.

You try to contradict everything in the article, written by a well respected journalist, and you are not presenting us with your credentials.

If a man is a doctor, and him prove himself, you still wouldn't give him a chance, eeh? This is not to start a cussing match with you but just something I noticed about your responses to many of the posts.

[Wahalla]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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The same money that was ripped off from the Jamaicans and friends of Jamaica living overseas. This is funny if the State can't educate kids sitting on hard benches at school how is it going to be any more successful with so-called E-Learning?

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Why must you constantly criticise, and not to help improve but to show people up as incompetent, this is not good energy.

The article explained where the money came from (taxes from incoming international calls), the person who wrote the article has been doing it since the 70's, I mean, com on, at least give him some respect for his authority on the subject of religion in Jamaica.

You try to contradict everything in the article, written by a well respected journalist, and you are not presenting us with your credentials.

If a man is a doctor, and him prove himself, you still wouldn't give him a chance, eeh? This is not to start a cussing match with you but just something I noticed about your responses to many of the posts.

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Having experience the glory of Jamaican education system, the constant lowering of standards, the inevitable use of any funds to satisfy the needs of power retention instead of governing.. the drinking of milk instead of the countung of cows, the desire fi run wid it instead of economic control, witnessing the demoralisation of the teachers who are badly trained, that even given more resources would be incapable of utilising it.. I could not agree with the Tuff more.. This a just another in the series of grand anouncements that will be a 2 week wonder, rearranging the chairs on the deck while the ship sinks....

[conscience]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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The same money that was ripped off from the Jamaicans and friends of Jamaica living overseas. This is funny if the State can't educate kids sitting on hard benches at school how is it going to be any more successful with so-called E-Learning?

[/ QUOTE ]


Why must you constantly criticise, and not to help improve but to show people up as incompetent, this is not good energy.

The article explained where the money came from (taxes from incoming international calls), the person who wrote the article has been doing it since the 70's, I mean, com on, at least give him some respect for his authority on the subject of religion in Jamaica.

You try to contradict everything in the article, written by a well respected journalist, and you are not presenting us with your credentials.

If a man is a doctor, and him prove himself, you still wouldn't give him a chance, eeh? This is not to start a cussing match with you but just something I noticed about your responses to many of the posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having experience the glory of Jamaican education system, the constant lowering of standards, the inevitable use of any funds to satisfy the needs of power retention instead of governing.. the drinking of milk instead of the countung of cows, the desire fi run wid it instead of economic control, witnessing the demoralisation of the teachers who are badly trained, that even given more resources would be incapable of utilising it.. I could not agree with the Tuff more.. This a just another in the series of grand anouncements that will be a 2 week wonder, rearranging the chairs on the deck while the ship sinks....

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Yu mek the case sound hopeless. that is not entirely true, ship sinking. The ship is damaged but it can be repaired.

This doesn't have to be just a shifting of chairs, why not give the plan a chance and see where it goes. Put some faith in your people and try to help them see. Send a group analysis (you, Tuff et al) of the Jamaican Question, entailing solutions to our problems.

It seems that there is no one capable of bringing this thing together other than you folks. I suggest you regain your faith in all things Jamaican, and feed your relatives hope.

The machine must move, with or without.

[Wahalla]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

There are times when ie seems few people remember anything except literally yesterdays news.....The problem with us (tuffy and me IMHO) is we have lived and were socialised in a time when trusims were bandied about. When content was replaced by bromides... We heard explantions for failures being placed on outside agencies. We watched the of dismissing incompetence as revolutionary acts. We watched good hard working people ..as We watched standards fall constantly, we saw promises being made, conventional wisdom being destroyed, a culture being revolutionised. We watched good people being made into enmies. Children being used as pawns in a game...

There was an education system in Jamaica from the 60's it cherry picked the best.. place a preponderance of success onto the middle classes and the urban.. it held back most.. Yet forty years later the literasy rate which was in the 70 percent has remained the same after initiatve... And you expect us to give a chance ????

Let me remind you of the stuff I remeber we gave a chance..

Junior secondary
Free Education
Cumpulsory education
CXC
Jamal
The initiative to get more students attend school on Fridays
My seacond favorite favorite Shift system.. (The explanation for that I think was given by Frorizel Glaspole where he claimed that the children who participated would get 10 % more teaching time... )
My favorite the lie that 80 % of all 11 year olds got a high school place....
Few years back there was that big initives with computers..

Promises to have universal education.

Had they done the initiatve without the PR and proved it a success.

I recall in 197* after passing an exam being told some home truth on education by a white principal.. And I say mention this guys colour be cause despite the fact I have a great dislike for him I am still in awe that some one told me the truth at that time..

We were the lucky few...

That assome of us was from the country we passed an exam that favoured the urban eleite. thus there was a favourtism for the urban children...
Since most of us passed he could assume 90 % of us came from families with televisions. Thus were economically fortunate...
He also explained the injustice of the fact that there was noone present from the primary school next door.
That we were male there was a distint possibility that there were girls who had done better than us.
He made he explained that 5 years ealier there was a 30% pass rate in this elite of English and Maths.. He had brouth it up to 80%...

I witnessed the initives and many more I have forgotten. I have long stopped beliing people who lie and expect me to beleive there lies after 40 years of lying to me..

Dont pi55 on my back and tell me its raining!
And now we see the same people beign held up as heros...

We get the basics wrong and we continue to use the same paradims...

I fell in the disadvantaged group.. rural, poor, male, no television... What a bumber!!!!!(And unfortunately not very smart)

And I have not even addressed or mentioned corruption....

[sophiadieheart]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

Ok, I agree, jamaica is not a bed of roses. You've outlined endless problems, and I know that there is a solution to every problem so can you suggest a few.

If the literacy rate is 70%, and I do agree it can improve, then that is not all too bad. That means that 3/4 of the people can at least read and write. 70% literacy is a good start so all is not lost.

Give some suggestions to some of our problems.

If you were PM what would be the radical changes that your administration would make to correct the the country's heading? It does not have to be detailed but must give a general idea of the course we need to take as a nation in order to recover.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

Jamaica at independence had a literacy rate of less than 35%. That is more than 60% were illiterate.
So it has come a long way in the 40 years although it should be better.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: pastors to run state boards


Divisive leadership

One look at post-Saddam Iraq with its fractious religious sectarian and tribal divisions and every sensible political leader knows that these are insurmountable obstacles to civilised government and wise political leaders with good intentions know that is a forbidden path to take. You may call this an extreme case but why should anyone take even a single tentative step down this path, which history abundantly illustrates is seriously flawed and has absolutely no good feature of governance.

And if this has no demonstrable advantage to good governance, we have to question the motive of politicians who resort to this simpleminded, fundamental religiousness merely to create and curry-favour with a political base.

We have to resolve anew and must rely on the press more, not to let our politicians get away with careless and devious utterances in an effort to fool the gullible in our population. Certainly we have allowed the previous administration to “get away with murder” on the score of statements and actions designed entirely to win elections while blatant mismanagement and corruptions in our affairs persisted. We have all right to be very cautious about these utterances regardless of halo effect of the origins recognising that the price of good governance is eternal vigilance and we are seldom vigilant enough in Jamaica.

Every well thinking Jamaican knows that based on our new Prime Minister’s unfortunate fundamental religious pronouncements, if privileges are given to any religious faction or sect over others, this would not only be unwise but will create militancy in the other groups and would inevitably create some measure of strife in a pluralistic society.

Yet, and quite predictably, leaders of the favoured fundamental Christian sect are all supportive of our Prime Minister’s unfortunate utterances because this will unfairly enhance their lot in our society. This behaviour is quite consistent with the traditional intolerance and selfish disposition of this dogmatic sect.

Graham B.G. Hill
Reading, St. James.
[email protected]

Divisive leadership

[Q3210]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

Out of that 70% that are said to be literate, there is a large proportion semi-literate.
You know semi-literates that struggle to read a page of the news headlines in an hour.
Then you got those who have problems comprehending what they read.
Then those who cant follow instructions, only verbally.

Tele-marketing opportunity was not realized in Jamaica, because one main problem was projecting a voice that could be understood by international listeners of the English language.
So politically, they`ll say we have 70% literacy, but in fact we do not.

[sophiadieheart]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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Out of that 70% that are said to be literate, there is a large proportion semi-literate (T--f et al).
You know semi-literates that struggle to read a page of the news headlines in an hour.
Then you got those who have problems comprehending what they read (definitely T--f et al).
Then those who cant follow instructions, only verbally (one spelt comprehension with a "t").

Tele-marketing opportunity was not realized in Jamaica, because one main problem was projecting a voice that could be understood by international listeners of the English language.
So politically, they`ll say we have 70% literacy, but in fact we do not.

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A shame, and them a worry bout homosexuals! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Q3210]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

Such is the quality of thinking that abounds in Jamaica, especially since the miseducation of the socialist 70`s where lessons of that era eroded common sense and social morals.
Not to say socialism is a bad thing. What was bad were the political band wagonists who took advantage of socialist hand outs and political spoils.
Honneker of East Germany was another that caused a bad name out of socialism with his priorities aimed at himself rather than at the country he governed on behalf of the USSR.

[conscience]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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Such is the quality of thinking that abounds in Jamaica, especially since the miseducation of the socialist 70`s where lessons of that era eroded common sense and social morals.
Not to say socialism is a bad thing. What was bad were the political band wagonists who took advantage of socialist hand outs and political spoils.
Honneker of East Germany was another that caused a bad name out of socialism with his priorities aimed at himself rather than at the country he governed on behalf of the USSR.

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I don't agree. i think the socialist gov of the 70s tried to bring the literacy rate up by creating programs like Jamal-not saying the program is perfect but many people learned how to read and write via these programs.

Schools were built and Cuba offered service that we desperately needed (doctors, food, etc), and Seaga, working for the CIA, expelled Cuba because he desired American support.

The country started its downward spiral at the onset of Seagaism. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Q3210]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

You obviously were not witness to life in the 70s, if you were you were a babe.
You were bought by the propaganda that the PNP was so good at, fooling fools.
If you think Jamaica`s demise started in the 80s regime of Seaga, you are totally miseducated and misinformed.
Wheel and come again and clear away the wool that covers your eyes.
btw.
Jamaican media is now making Seaga a hero with all his social programmes from the initial days of him being a music producer and perhaps from when he lived in Buxton Town, St. Catherine in preperation for his socialogical studies.
The hypocritical media of Jamaica echoes of such when they now about turn and make a hero out of what they created in Seaga, a demon, just like you have been fooled into thinking.
True, Seaga was only mortal, but he has done more for Jamaica than any personality in or out of the PNP in recent history.
And certainly his honesty and matter of factness bares no resemblance to the "I Shall Return" Iran Sugar ?Deal Scandals Whitehouse, Furniture scandals to name a few that have dominated the cronism Govts. of a PJ Patterson.

And now we have the joke of a Prime Minister proclaiming her appointment to office, by no other than God.

[niceniss]

Re: Lawd a gad first pastor appointed, wi in a trouble

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You obviously were not witness to life in the 70s, if you were you were a babe.
You were bought by the propaganda that the PNP was so good at, fooling fools.

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so right! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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If you think Jamaica`s demise started in the 80s regime of Seaga, you are totally miseducated and misinformed.
Wheel and come again and clear away the wool that covers your eyes.
btw.
Jamaican media is now making Seaga a hero with all his social programmes from the initial days of him being a music producer and perhaps from when he lived in Buxton Town, St. Catherine in preperation for his socialogical studies.
The hypocritical media of Jamaica echoes of such when they now about turn and make a hero out of what they created in Seaga, a demon, just like you have been fooled into thinking.
True, Seaga was only mortal, but he has done more for Jamaica than any personality in or out of the PNP in recent history.

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and now people like Ian Boyne, who was one of the 'journalists' that demonize the man is now singing his praises. Such hypocrasy. Very unjust to the Jamaican people who have to endure the PNP because of media persuasion...
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And certainly his honesty and matter of factness bares no resemblance to the "I Shall Return" Iran Sugar ?Deal Scandals Whitehouse, Furniture scandals to name a few that have dominated the cronism Govts. of a PJ Patterson.

And now we have the joke of a Prime Minister proclaiming her appointment to office, by no other than God.

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