British educator for Ja's education transformation

[Q3210]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a myth that Jamaica education system is failing the youths. My experience up to high school is that the teachers in Jamaica are the best I have come across. Racism is practically non existent in schools and even the spelling b contest I watched on TV for the little kids was mind blowing and made me proud. These kids are spelling words with 15+ letters!

Jamaica don't need help from britain - its education system is failing many minorities due to institutional racism. Jamaica only need to step up her game in higher education - more universities need to be built; so many good and reputable high schools all in their own right but only one university - not acceptable!

</div></div>

With all due respect sir, you sound like one of the much needed spin bowlers that the West Indies cricket team is needing.
Tuff Gong`s input is more in with reality of today`s Jamaica.
Emphasis should be targeted on early childhood education and not so much now on tertiary education.
Why?
We need a firm base of educated children who can first, read and write consistently well before we build high rises for them to perch on, not knowing how they got their in the first place.
Too many of our students cannot follow simple instructions because they cannot comprehend what they are reading, let alone if they can read what is written.
There are exceptions like the one at Kingston Tech. and yes, we have some stand-out good spellers. These children are handpicked and trained further to spell. If all our children were treated likewise, then we could erase the word hypocrites when describing the spin doctors who defend baloons full of air and seem to be genetically linked to the rulers at hand.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a myth that Jamaica education system is failing the youths. My experience up to high school is that the teachers in Jamaica are the best I have come across. Racism is practically non existent in schools and even the spelling b contest I watched on TV for the little kids was mind blowing and made me proud. These kids are spelling words with 15+ letters!

Jamaica don't need help from britain - its education system is failing many minorities due to institutional racism. Jamaica only need to step up her game in higher education - more universities need to be built; so many good and reputable high schools all in their own right but only one university - not acceptable!

</div></div>

With all due respect sir, you sound like one of the much needed spin bowlers that the West Indies cricket team is needing.
Tuff Gong`s input is more in with reality of today`s Jamaica.
Emphasis should be targeted on early childhood education and not so much now on tertiary education.
Why?
We need a firm base of educated children who can first, read and write consistently well before we build high rises for them to perch on, not knowing how they got their in the first place.
Too many of our students cannot follow simple instructions because they cannot comprehend what they are reading, let alone if they can read what is written.
There are exceptions like the one at Kingston Tech. and yes, we have some stand-out good spellers. These children are handpicked and trained further to spell. If all our children were treated likewise, then we could erase the word hypocrites when describing the spin doctors who defend baloons full of air and seem to be genetically linked to the rulers at hand.
</div></div>Did you know that massachusettes school system is one of the highest achieving in the US.
Well Jamaican children from primary,high school andnew high school have to be evaluated to be placed in grades according to age. well they are usually placed one grade above.
Jamaican schools may not be doing the best for the studernts,but they are doing better than the well financed school system in Massachusettes.
That is one of the reasons why Jamaican students are awarded over 100 full scholarships to Harvbard, the top university in the state.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you know that massachusettes school system is one of the highest achieving in the US.
Well Jamaican children from primary,high school andnew high school have to be evaluated to be placed in grades according to age. well they are usually placed one grade above.
Jamaican schools may not be doing the best for the studernts,but they are doing better than the well financed school system in Massachusettes.
That is one of the reasons why Jamaican students are awarded over 100 full scholarships to Harvbard, the top university in the state. </div></div>

Every time arguments about education and the state of education in Jamaica of Jamaicans come up, the reasoning is exported to foreign.

<u>#1</u> The majority of children educated in Jamaica are not going to be able to leave Jamaica, therefore they have to be worth something to Jamaica.

<u>#2</u> We don't know who actually leave Jamaica as students, it could be the ones with the best ability, but never had the opportunity in Jamaica.

<u>#3a</u> or it could be the ones with the best ability, had the world of opportunity in Jamaica, but felt their prospects outside of school might be better in a foreign country.

<u>#4</u> The USA can afford its failures, can Jamaica afford to fail to educate Jamaicans?

The long and short of it is. We don't have the numbers and the opportunity to test your arguments or any other in the same vein. What we do have are the figures and the history of Jamaica since Independence, to judge our ability to produce educated citizens.

[Q3210]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

That`s good. We do produce good quality students, mostly from traditional high schools and some from non traditional high schools.
However, these stand outs are in the minority.
The vast majority of the student population in Jamaica are not efficient readers and writers.
Hence their ability to do well in the sciences are limited.
I would be more comfortable knowing that every child exposed to our school system could read and write.
I`d also feel better if teachers were better paid and renumerated so that they in turn would be more comfortable performing in and out of the classroom.
Where they would become creative administrators of education starting new ways and means of teaching and deciding which curicula to implement where the necessity lies.

[Q3210]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

Tuff Gong asks: #4 The USA can afford its failures, can Jamaica afford to fail to educate Jamaicans?

Very good question indeed.

No, we cannot afford to produce failures at the rate we do.
Even the present day labour force is highly Un-Skilled.
We have failed to optimize our greatest resource, that of our people, who many revert to gangsta style living as a means of making hay much to the benefit of no one but their clique and not the benefit of a nation hoping to advance from 3rd world to a developing nation.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong asks: #4 The USA can afford its failures, can Jamaica afford to fail to educate Jamaicans?

Very good question indeed.

No, we cannot afford to produce failures at the rate we do.
Even the present day labour force is highly Un-Skilled.
We have failed to optimize our greatest resource, that of our people, who many revert to gangsta style living as a means of making hay much to the benefit of no one but their clique and not the benefit of a nation hoping to advance from 3rd world to a developing nation.
</div></div>
Can Jamaica afford to produce properly educated citizens?
taking uinto consideration 40 yaers ago at independence the literacy rate was less than 40%.
In forty years it has come a long way. With a GDP of around US$3,000 and the majority of consumaBLES IMPORTED AND HAVE TO BE PAID IN us DOLLARS,even if the government collect every penny the country earns,adn borrow as much in addition,it still is not a quarter of the annual education cost per student in Mass. So I know politics is involved,but that does not make it any more achievable undeer the constraints of poor economic system.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can Jamaica afford to produce properly educated citizens?

taking uinto consideration 40 yaers ago at independence the literacy rate was less than 40%.
In forty years it has come a long way.</div></div>

Can you provide any proof that Jamaica's literacy rate 40 years ago was less than 40%?
What is the literacy rate now?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a GDP of around US$3,000 and the majority of consumaBLES IMPORTED AND HAVE TO BE PAID IN us DOLLARS,even if the government collect every penny the country earns,adn borrow as much in addition,it still is not a quarter of the annual education cost per student in Mass.</div></div>

So are you saying we are doing much better than Massachusetts'?
...and again why are we comparing the Education of Massachusetts' citizens with Jamaica, when

A. this is not the issue
B. you cannot or is not prepared to provide any hard statistics so we know what we are comparing?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I know politics is involved,but that does not make it any more achievable undeer the constraints of poor economic system. </div></div>

Where is the politics involved....I don't get this part?

So you are contending that Jamaica cannot afford to educate its citizens, if that so why don't we ask Britain, Mass or just ship Jamaicans abroad more efficiently?

[Sinco01]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a myth that Jamaica education system is failing the youths. My experience up to high school is that the teachers in Jamaica are the best I have come across. Racism is practically non existent in schools and even the spelling b contest I watched on TV for the little kids was mind blowing and made me proud. These kids are spelling words with 15+ letters!

Jamaica don't need help from britain - its education system is failing many minorities due to institutional racism. Jamaica only need to step up her game in higher education - more universities need to be built; so many good and reputable high schools all in their own right but only one university - not acceptable!

</div></div>

With all due respect sir, you sound like one of the much needed spin bowlers that the West Indies cricket team is needing.
Tuff Gong`s input is more in with reality of today`s Jamaica.
Emphasis should be targeted on early childhood education and not so much now on tertiary education.
Why?
We need a firm base of educated children who can first, read and write consistently well before we build high rises for them to perch on, not knowing how they got their in the first place.
Too many of our students cannot follow simple instructions because they cannot comprehend what they are reading, let alone if they can read what is written.
There are exceptions like the one at Kingston Tech. and yes, we have some stand-out good spellers. These children are handpicked and trained further to spell. If all our children were treated likewise, then we could erase the word hypocrites when describing the spin doctors who defend baloons full of air and seem to be genetically linked to the rulers at hand.
</div></div>

learning to read and write the exception ..?

this bad .. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img]

i cannot remember one of my classmates from Primary through High School who lacked these basic fundamentals ..

i heard of older persons who may have lacked some of these, because they always forgot their glasses or eyes weak ..

but High School students .. ?? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img]
shameful ..

in this day and age they need to attract the children to the lessons ..
and computers come to mind ..
networking the schools, standardizing the basics, and providing an interactive format for the students would probably help ..

[Q3210]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

The JCs, STGCs, Wolmers`, C`Bars, ICHS`, St Andrews`, St Hilda`s, Mannings`, Munros, Cornwalls, KCs etc. from the begining of their existence, some from the 18th century till the early 70s, before socialism began the advent of diluted educational, social, economical and political virtues, EVERY student in any of those schools mentioned above could read and write and understand what they read.

Today in those very same schools mentioned, yes many if not most are fully literate, but the % few that are not are way too many for what we would term as developing and advanced in comparison to the days of old.
Not to mention the non traditional HS`s where statistics show that those schools produce the higest proportion if semi-literate graduates whose passes are mainly in Home Economics and business related subjects at the CXC level.
Maths and English as well as the sciences are only achievable to students who are fully literate.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can Jamaica afford to produce properly educated citizens?

taking uinto consideration 40 yaers ago at independence the literacy rate was less than 40%.
In forty years it has come a long way.</div></div>

Can you provide any proof that Jamaica's literacy rate 40 years ago was less than 40%?
What is the literacy rate now?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a GDP of around US$3,000 and the majority of consumaBLES IMPORTED AND HAVE TO BE PAID IN us DOLLARS,even if the government collect every penny the country earns,adn borrow as much in addition,it still is not a quarter of the annual education cost per student in Mass.</div></div>

So are you saying we are doing much better than Massachusetts'?
...and again why are we comparing the Education of Massachusetts' citizens with Jamaica, when

A. this is not the issue
B. you cannot or is not prepared to provide any hard statistics so we know what we are comparing?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I know politics is involved,but that does not make it any more achievable undeer the constraints of poor economic system. </div></div>

Where is the politics involved....I don't get this part?

So you are contending that Jamaica cannot afford to educate its citizens, if that so why don't we ask Britain, Mass or just ship Jamaicans abroad more efficiently? </div></div>
I am saying that citizens are to illiterate to be employed in an prosperous economy is a cop out.
I remember working as an engineer,( not ot include that I became an engineer,I had eble workers that could not even use a vernier caliper,before i trained. I had to,because that was all we got and they produced much more than 10 times what their highle educated counterparts could,because we tailor their fobs to suit their weaknesses. We have them operating highly advanced equipment. Many were the only of their type in existence.
these workers made 6 figure incomes too.
If Jamaica is going to get out of the rut oit is in. It can't wait until the students are properly educated.
The business sector is only using that as an excuse to import foreign(meaning other races0 workers to displace Jamaicans as the have been doing with management and front officr workers for as long as the country exists.
The business sector need to realize that Jamaicans have to be employed ,even if they are illiterate. Illiteracy does not mean stupidity.it simply mean that they did not get appropriate educational motivation ,but they are trainiable.
It is time the busines sector realize that if their money and allegance is to foreign,they will not be earning the big profits to send their here for too much longer.
The crime situation will increase to th epoint where the only profitable activity will be crime and violence realated,and dailyb survival will be a gamble.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

So you don't realize that 1962 the majority of Jamaicans were illitearte??
You don't realize that the majority od The port workers were illitearte,the majority of sugar workers were illitearte. That the majoroty of farm workers were illiterate.. You did not know that the majority of schoos were one room buildings. That the age at wilch the majority of children left school was 15.
that many only went to school when their parents did not need them to work on the farm.
That the educational system was more intrested in teaching the child to submit to authority,that to read and write.
...and unless you first achieve the accepted level of submission,you won't be taught anything else.
you spend your days in the 'garder'
Yes every school had a 'garden then.
I know a lot of us like to talk about th egood old days,but their certainly was a 'good old days',but not fro th eblack population. It just did not exist,or only existed as a vision to aspire to.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am saying that citizens are to illiterate to be employed in an prosperous economy is a cop out.
I remember working as an engineer,( not ot include that I became an engineer,I had eble workers that could not even use a vernier caliper,before i trained. I had to,because that was all we got and they produced much more than 10 times what their highle educated counterparts could,because we tailor their fobs to suit their weaknesses. We have them operating highly advanced equipment. Many were the only of their type in existence.
these workers made 6 figure incomes too.
If Jamaica is going to get out of the rut oit is in. It can't wait until the students are properly educated.
The business sector is only using that as an excuse to import foreign(meaning other races0 workers to displace Jamaicans as the have been doing with management and front officr workers for as long as the country exists.
The business sector need to realize that Jamaicans have to be employed ,even if they are illiterate. Illiteracy does not mean stupidity.it simply mean that they did not get appropriate educational motivation ,but they are trainiable.
It is time the busines sector realize that if their money and allegance is to foreign,they will not be earning the big profits to send their here for too much longer.
The crime situation will increase to th epoint where the only profitable activity will be crime and violence realated,and dailyb survival will be a gamble.

</div></div>

This looks totally unrelated to what the argument was, except that you are saying somehow the businesspersons are using illiteracy as an excuse not to hire workers, in an otherwise successful economy.

Yet you pointed to our low GDP and seemed to be telling us that Jamaica cannot afford to educate its citizens? This is getting even more confusing.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you don't realize that 1962 the majority of Jamaicans were illitearte??
You don't realize that the majority od The port workers were illitearte,the majority of sugar workers were illitearte. That the majoroty of farm workers were illiterate.. You did not know that the majority of schoos were one room buildings. That the age at wilch the majority of children left school was 15.
that many only went to school when their parents did not need them to work on the farm.
That the educational system was more intrested in teaching the child to submit to authority,that to read and write.
...and unless you first achieve the accepted level of submission,you won't be taught anything else.
you spend your days in the 'garder'
Yes every school had a 'garden then.
I know a lot of us like to talk about th egood old days,but their certainly was a 'good old days',but not fro th eblack population. It just did not exist,or only existed as a vision to aspire to. </div></div>

Please.... all I am asking is that you provide facts and figures if you are going to make certain assertions. Otherwise how can we be sure if we are comparing apples with apples?

So far you have not provided any usable stats, except for Jamaica’s current GDP.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am saying that citizens are to illiterate to be employed in an prosperous economy is a cop out.
I remember working as an engineer,( not ot include that I became an engineer,I had eble workers that could not even use a vernier caliper,before i trained. I had to,because that was all we got and they produced much more than 10 times what their highle educated counterparts could,because we tailor their fobs to suit their weaknesses. We have them operating highly advanced equipment. Many were the only of their type in existence.
these workers made 6 figure incomes too.
If Jamaica is going to get out of the rut oit is in. It can't wait until the students are properly educated.
The business sector is only using that as an excuse to import foreign(meaning other races0 workers to displace Jamaicans as the have been doing with management and front officr workers for as long as the country exists.
The business sector need to realize that Jamaicans have to be employed ,even if they are illiterate. Illiteracy does not mean stupidity.it simply mean that they did not get appropriate educational motivation ,but they are trainiable.
It is time the busines sector realize that if their money and allegance is to foreign,they will not be earning the big profits to send their here for too much longer.
The crime situation will increase to th epoint where the only profitable activity will be crime and violence realated,and dailyb survival will be a gamble.

</div></div>

This looks totally unrelated to what the argument was, except that you are saying somehow the businesspersons are using illiteracy as an excuse not to hire workers, in an otherwise successful economy.

Yet you pointed to our low GDP and seemed to be telling us that Jamaica cannot afford to educate its citizens? This is getting even more confusing.
</div></div>
I am saying that educational opportunities is a scarce resource,Just as income and taxes are. Or because taxable incomes are.
A a result the country have to produce itself out of the position it is in. To do so we can't have the business sector complain that the quality of workers is not ideal.
I am also ssaying that this weakness is common in more devbeloped and prosperous economies. I also add that in those economies the business sector use what they have to produce greater prosperity than their Jamaican counter part.
Those economies are developed because the business sector use what they have to get what they want.
This is at the heart of the free enterprise economic system.
They love to talk about free markets,but are quick to propose social intervention without labelling it.
The business sector derives the greatest level of benefits from an highly skilled, educated work force. They simply do not like to contribute to the developement of thoiswe skills.
talk about socialism.they are simply being subsidized by poor and middle class parents,that have to sacrifice to educate the workers that creates their wealth.
let them try to create,naintain or preserve wealth withput th esacrifice of the families that educate their workers.
Bunch of leaches.

[Q3210]

Re: British educator for Ja's education transformation

Whatever it is, we are in dire straits as far as economic development is concerned.
The master-builders assoc. a group of architects and real estate devolpers spoke publicly about wanting imported skilled labour on site projects.
If we cannot train a pool of people to perform tasks efficiently such as in basic labour, that is a measuring stick to the quality of expertise at hand in Jamaica today.

Our semi-literate graduates cannot fit in to basic IT jobs like telemarketing on a quantitative level because they cannot simply spell C-A-T cat.

Compare us with yesteryear and post colonial Jamaica, compare us with Boston`s school system and standards, we just are not up to scratch for the advanced world beyond the boundaries of our insulated island.