(S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

[niceniss]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

you and RichD up late. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img]

well him say eddie talk to ppl while adams crawl pon him belly, den u epress disbelif dat eddie talk to gunman while adams crawl, den richd, insteada correct u, ask if u nain hear bout it.

me get di exchange wrong? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img]

[Hopyoneson]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

I have already addressed your question so I am not revisiting it.

More Reneto News

Visas revoked - US, Canada bar policemen charged with Kraal murders

SENIOR SUPERINTENDENT Reneto Adams says he is heading for the American consulate in Kingston today to verify that his visa to travel to the United States, like those of the other five cops acquitted of the Kraal killings, has been revoked by the U.S. authorities.

"I will be going to the Embassy to verify if my visa has been cancelled like the other policemen who were involved in the Kraal matter," SSP Adams told The Gleaner yesterday.

Adams said he has had a U.S.-entry visa for two decades, but confirmed that a "close family member", which other sources say is his wife, Mildred, has had her visa revoked by the Canadians.

Among the reasons the Canadians reportedly gave for revoking Mildred Adams' visa was the involvement of her husband in the Kraal killings.

Canadian officials could not be contacted for comment yesterday, and U.S. Embassy spokesman, Glen Guimond, said his country's policy prohibits the divulging of information on individual visa issues.

It was not clear whether Britain would place travel restrictions on Adams or any of the other policemen involved in the Kraal incident, given that officials at the High Commission in Kingston were unavailable for comment.

The likelihood of Adams having been banned from the United States arose yesterday when it emerged that the other policemen with whom he was charged for murder at Kraal, corporals Patrick Coke and Shane Lyons, and constables Roger Collier, Devon Bernard and Leeford Gordon, could no longer travel to the U.S. legally.

EMBARRASSING

Bernard said his and his colleagues' visas had been annulled, a fact discovered under embarrassing circumstances for two of them.

Bernard, who has emerged as spokesman for the group, told The Gleaner yesterday that Gordon spent six hours at the John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York last week being questioned by U.S. Immigration officials before being refused entry and sent back home. At the time Bernard was carrying documents showing he had been freed in the Jamaican courts for the killing of four people in Kraal, Clarendon, in March, 2003.

SIMILAR SITUATION

Collier had found himself in a similar situation in February at an airport in Miami. He, too, was told that the stop order was still in effect. This, two months after the police officers were freed.

Adams was head of the controversial Crime Management Unit (CMU), which was accused by human rights groups of extra-judicial killings. In the Kraal incident, police said the CMU went to the south central Jamaican town in search of a criminal when they were fired on. In what the cops claimed was an ensuing gunfight, four people, including two women, were shot dead.

The incident led to the dismantling of the CMU and the charging of the six policemen, including Adams. The group was acquitted last December.

The possibility of Adams not being able to travel to the U.S. or other major countries with which Jamaica has close law enforcement relationships will be embarrassing to the administration and the constabulary.

The fact became public only two days after Adams, who was on suspension since his being charged in 2004, was reinstated in the constabulary and named to a job as an intelligence analysts, reporting directly to Police Commissioner Lucius Thomas.

Bernard insisted yesterday that he and his colleagues would fight the visa revocation, which they felt was unfair.

"We intend to pursue every means to get to the bottom of this. We don't intend to sit down and be treated like this," he told The Gleaner. "In essence we are not free. We are still being punished for what we have been acquitted of in the courts."

Bernard said the group would be seeking the intervention of the Police Commissioner.

However Carolyn Gomes, executive director of Jamaicans for Justice (JFJ), said that the American government reserves the right to grant or deny visas that facilitate entry into its country. "They turn down decent human beings all the time ... it is not a (human) rights issue," she said.

[Wardob]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

The taking of innocent lives by agent of the State or others is wrong, and the perpetrators(s) if known should be brought to Justice.
Justice I believe is what as and is administering through our Courts. In this case such was done and he was found not guilty. There is therefore no legal reason for anyone especially those beyond our shores to be saying deny him, his chosen way of making a livelihood for he and his family and that’s my beef, it matters not if in my eyes he his guilty or not, the court as made the decision it made.

Tuff you will recall when Adams was charged I said here that no Court in The Country will convict him, what I did not say was the reason for such belief. Here is how I came to that conclusion. I said that after been present at political rally, and listen to the statement made by a Government MP, and heard the response of those in attendance. I also had the opportunity to talk to Jamaicans all over the Island rich and poor alike and the vast majority wanted him free, so I ask myself where are they going to find a jury to convict this man? Like it or not many saw and continue to see him, as been an effective crime fighter. Let me say frankly, many in the opposition party who speaks against him publicly do so only because he is seen as a PNP, like all politicians they judge him by his politics only. I dear to say were the killings in a PNP area they too would want him back on the streets.

We may disagree with the judgment but we must continue to believe in the Courts, as the alternative we should not want.
Many like Jamaica for Justice as question and blame the Judge’s summations, for the not guilty verdict and that’s okay our justice system as room for that, but to deny him his right to full employment after acquittal, if that is what been, asked cannot be right.
I have no doubt that in some area, place and time he is now be judged in the Courts of criminals (Street Justice) by advocated and others who believe in his guilt. I would just say to those who do so, if we should bow to street justice we should just close all Courts in the Country, and hand over the reins of Government and Justice, to ever Dog and Puss who believe their way is the right way

What USA and Canada did was wrong.How many USA and Canadian Cops faced similar situation, yet continue to enjoy the freedom to travel? Volpy and Schwartz two NY City cops now stand in prison for brutalizing a Haitian born USA Citizen. Remember now they are convicted criminals, I am certain on their release they are free to visit Haiti, Canada and any other Country any time they so choose, will Canada withdraw their Visa?

What Britain, USA and Canada is telling us that our people or Courts and our justice system is flawed but theirs are perfect, Is my Board Brother saying that Britain, by the way of their kindness their generous contribution over the years have a right and demand he be denied of his right, and that we as a Country must do so, regardless of what our Court said? May I remind my Board Brother we are still using the laws they (Britain) handed down to us, the same Court system as they use.

Congratulation to the Commissioner he did the right thing re-instate him; let him report directly to him (Comissh.)

[RichD]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

[ QUOTE ]


I am certain on their release they are free to visit Haiti, Canada and any other Country any time they so choose, will Canada withdraw their Visa?



[/ QUOTE ] under candain law the convictrions will bar them from entry to canada unless given special waiver.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

[ QUOTE ]
The taking of innocent lives by agent of the State or others is wrong, and the perpetrators(s) if known should be brought to Justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying that?

Didn't you take the view that (S)Adams and his ilk are necessary in the arsenal of the Jamaican State?
You yourself were willing to call me a criminal merely on the basis of arguments on a BB. So how am I to trust any argument you make about the taking of innocent lives by the agents of the State?


[ QUOTE ]
Justice I believe is what as and is administering through our Courts. In this case such was done and he was found not guilty. There is therefore no legal reason for anyone especially those beyond our shores to be saying deny him, his chosen way of making a livelihood for he and his family and that’s my beef, it matters not if in my eyes he his guilty or not, the court as made the decision it made.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is denying (S)Admans and his crew a job?

[ QUOTE ]
Tuff you will recall when Adams was charged I said here that no Court in The Country will convict him, what I did not say was the reason for such belief. Here is how I came to that conclusion. I said that after been present at political rally, and listen to the statement made by a Government MP, and heard the response of those in attendance. I also had the opportunity to talk to Jamaicans all over the Island rich and poor alike and the vast majority wanted him free,

[/ QUOTE ]

The majority view is not necessarily the correct view. The majority of Germans and even people of other countries supported Hitler. The Hutu are the majority of Rwandans, they decided that they have no more use for the Tutsi and others who are in the minority and who were routinely slaughtered by them in the no infamous genocidical rampage in Rwanda.

[ QUOTE ]
...so I ask myself where are they going to find a jury to convict this man? Like it or not many saw and continue to see him, as been an effective crime fighter.

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt, that is why the Opposition was able to forget Green Bay, the numerous attacks on Tivoli, The Orange Lane Fire, Rema and all the other atrocities, because what difference does it make?
This is just poor people being killed and when they come to power they will need to do some killing themselves.

Well since we cannot depend on the politicians then we need to move to other means. That is why there is Hamas, Al Qaeda, The PLO, The IRA, The Tamil Tigers, JFJ, FAST, ICHR, FIPA, AI, etc. When the State become oppressive then citizens have to find other avenues.


[ QUOTE ]
We may disagree with the judgment but we must continue to believe in the Courts, as the alternative we should not want.
Many like Jamaica for Justice as question and blame the Judge’s summations, for the not guilty verdict and that’s okay our justice system as room for that, but to deny him his right to full employment after acquittal, if that is what been, asked cannot be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

The courts of a corrupt State are of no use to the citizens of that country.
Please point me to where JFJ is trying to deny (S)Adams and job?


[ QUOTE ]
I have no doubt that in some area, place and time he is now be judged in the Courts of criminals (Street Justice) by advocated and others who believe in his guilt. I would just say to those who do so, if we should bow to street justice we should just close all Courts in the Country, and hand over the reins of Government and Justice, to ever Dog and Puss who believe their way is the right way

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what has happened, isn't that why we need (S)Adams the Dons, Extra-Judicial Killings, Street Justice and the corrupt courts? The State of Jamaica has disintegrated. Don't put the cart before the horse. It is lack of order that has caused the current situation.

[ QUOTE ]
What USA and Canada did was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

You live in the USA do you know what the Homeland Security says about arrests, even for midsummer? Get the facts.

[ QUOTE ]
Congratulation to the Commissioner he did the right thing re-instate him; let him report directly to him (Comissh.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes in keeping with his mandate of fighting fiyah wid fiyah?
Look don't be surprised when a Hamas, Al Qaeda or a PLO rise up in Jamaica. I hope you will be cheering as well.

[Wardob]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

Thanks Rich, Why do I believe the waiver is already written? Now what if they were found not guilty as in Adams case?

“You are saying that?

Didn't you take the view that (S) Adams and his ilk are necessary in the arsenal of the Jamaican State?
You yourself were willing to call me a criminal merely on the basis of arguments on a BB. So how am I to trust any argument you make about the taking of innocent lives by the agents of the State?” …….. Tuff

Look let’s put that argument to rest once and for all. It was unwise of me to use such a term to you. I did outline the context under which the term was used, if you and the BB wish that I repeat why I used that term then say so. If not just accept my apology, move on, stop been childish.

You may or may not believe but your open statement is exactly how a vast majority of Jamaicans see him. I do not seek your trust; it is always my position that the innocent must be protected and that all matters of Justice must be put and remain in the hands of those we put in place to administer it. I spent too much years in a small way fighting for them and watching others fight to protect them and listen to reasons why Justice can and should only be administered by the Courts. Though not in a legal way, I have seen the system upfront and close and I strongly believe it is the only way for a civilized Society.

JFJ. (By the way I am a member) like many, may not be saying so publicly but don’t be fooled if he was not reinstated we would not be having this discussion, those who want to keep him out have now began a new case against him. We would not be hearing from all these self righteous, bias group if he was fired, sorry yes we would be hearing from them, clapping hands and party all night.

It is somewhat hypocritical of so many people, if USA have a problem with suspected terrorist real or unreal infiltrating its Border, and seek to address it, they are vilified, but a few Jamaicans who have been found not guilt and acquitted by the Courts denied entry and these same cheerleaders now clap hands and say it’s the right thing to do….. wow

“When the State become oppressive then citizens have to find other avenues.” Tuff

Who can disagree with that statement, but the avenue taken should and must be changing of those that Manage and Govern the State by lawful means


Many years ago a Young Man walk out of the then School of Agriculture, Twickenham Park with a Diploma in hand, join the JCF, went to the Norman Manley Law School
Leave with a degree in Law remained in the Force. Exactly three weeks ago I visited him at the Training School listen to him teaches not only law but also respect for all. This Saturday we will walk with him, to his final resting place and lay him there.
I say this only because you have always painted all Cops as thugs, criminal, and killers for the state, and I disagree …………..That not so young man is my Brother he was a good Cop.

Peace……………

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

don't you think we are going a bit overboard here to assume that it is the action of these countries why the visa was annulled?
What if the Jamaican authorities that placed the men on the list,has not send in writing the change of status of these police officers and their families??

[Tuff Gong]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

[ QUOTE ]
don't you think we are going a bit overboard here to assume that it is the action of these countries why the visa was annulled?
What if the Jamaican authorities that placed the men on the list,has not send in writing the change of status of these police officers and their families??

[/ QUOTE ]

I will answer my friend War-Dob later.

Yes I accepted this premise and at first when I heard about it I thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up but I know (S)Adams went to find out his status today and nothing yet. Plus the cryptic argument from the Embassy, that they don't comment on individual cases, made me realize that this was more than just paperwork malfunction.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender


Just heard (S)Adams confirmed that his visa was cancelled, he will not appeal but his wife will appeal her cancellation from the Canadian Embassy.

Anyway unno can stop Blame the Human Rights folks.

[ QUOTE ]
Thu Jun 15, 2006
Human rights group deny involvement in cancellation of CMU visas

At least one local human rights group is distancing itself from claims that it played a roll in the cancellation of the visitors’ visas which were granted to some members of the former Crime Management Unit (CMU).


Executive Director of Jamaicans for Justice, Dr. Carolyn Gomes, said her organization did not approach the Canadian Government or the United States administration regarding such an issue.

According to her, both Governments do not need local human rights groups to provide them with information that is widely available in the media. Against this background, she described the charges against the human rights groups as ridiculous.

The former CMU members, who were charged in connection with the fatal shooting of four persons in Crawle Clarendon, said immigration officials in Canada and the United States have cancelled their visas.

According to the policemen, who were reinstated into the force after being freed by the courts, they have been refused entry into the two countries. One of the policemen actually flew into the United States last week and was turned back by US immigration who informed him that his visa had been cancelled.


The Canadian visa of the wife of Senior Superintendent Reneto Adams was also revoked by the Canadian authorities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human rights group deny involvement in cancellation of CMU visas

[Tuff Gong]

Re: (S)Adams complains to the Public Defender

“You are saying that?

Didn't you take the view that (S) Adams and his ilk are necessary in the arsenal of the Jamaican State?
You yourself were willing to call me a criminal merely on the basis of arguments on a BB. So how am I to trust any argument you make about the taking of innocent lives by the agents of the State?” …….. Tuff

[ QUOTE ]
Look let’s put that argument to rest once and for all. It was unwise of me to use such a term to you. I did outline the context under which the term was used, if you and the BB wish that I repeat why I used that term then say so. If not just accept my apology, move on, stop been childish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I accept your apology, I did not realize that one was offered previously. Anyway I was merely using it to try to overstand your argument now bearing in mind what I thought was your position then.

[ QUOTE ]
You may or may not believe but your open statement is exactly how a vast majority of Jamaicans see him. I do not seek your trust;

[/ QUOTE ]

This not my thrust, he was called that to his face and he reveled in the description, this was before the Bush2 Iraqi Invasion.

[ QUOTE ]
JFJ. (By the way I am a member) like many, may not be saying so publicly but don’t be fooled if he was not reinstated we would not be having this discussion, those who want to keep him out have now began a new case against him. We would not be hearing from all these self righteous, bias group if he was fired, sorry yes we would be hearing from them, clapping hands and party all night.

[/ QUOTE ]

The charges against (S)Adams or any other police who operate in such a manner have been made, where they come into focus, I hope this will continue. (S)Adams himself fired the first shot, I am pretty sure you have heard his song in which he clearly stated that Jamaica would pay dearly, dearly, dearly, that a number of well-known areas in jamaica would be under permanent curfews and that the Criminal Rights activists are trying to stop him.
If that is not a declaration of war then what is it?

You can tell us more than any other, whether JFJ is trying to stop him or not.
Are you giving us official JFJ talk or hallway gossip?
Are you telling us that the JFJ is focusing all it resources on (S)Adams or on any corrupt activities of the State apparatus?
You are a member of JFJ but you seem clueless to the question of Human Rights?
Even a breach of procedure, let alone questionable killings would be enough to prevent a person from holding a position of power.
In the words of (S)Adams himself the argument that a citizen of Jamaica is innocent until proven guilty, is mere semantics. He has said the UN (which he has served under) is backing criminal rights. He has said that 75% of Jamaicans are criminals. He has led operations that have resulted in over 80 questionable killings and just going by his own reports, especially in the Breaton Killings it was clear that while the deaths might not have been murder, the men were killed unnecessarily.

[ QUOTE ]
It is somewhat hypocritical of so many people, if USA have a problem with suspected terrorist real or unreal infiltrating its Border, and seek to address it, they are vilified, but a few Jamaicans who have been found not guilt and acquitted by the Courts denied entry and these same cheerleaders now clap hands and say it’s the right thing to do….. wow

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain this?

“When the State become oppressive then citizens have to find other avenues.” Tuff

[ QUOTE ]
Who can disagree with that statement, but the avenue taken should and must be changing of those that Manage and Govern the State by lawful means

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you don’t fully overstand the statement.

[ QUOTE ]
Many years ago a Young Man walk out of the then School of Agriculture, Twickenham Park with a Diploma in hand, join the JCF, went to the Norman Manley Law School
Leave with a degree in Law remained in the Force. Exactly three weeks ago I visited him at the Training School listen to him teaches not only law but also respect for all. This Saturday we will walk with him, to his final resting place and lay him there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? Apparently he had not had so much of an influence on the JCF. Maybe it is good that he and his ideas are going to be resting in peace.

[ QUOTE ]
I say this only because you have always painted all Cops as thugs, criminal, and killers for the state, and I disagree …………..That not so young man is my Brother he was a good Cop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you have never heard, or seen that from me that all cops are corrupt. The State of Jamaica is corrupt. The State of Jamaica needs apparatuses. The corrupt JCF is one aspect of the corrupt State of Jamaica.

[ QUOTE ]
Peace……………

[/ QUOTE ]

Well peace to you too, but I doubt Jamaica is on the way to peace.