<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
taking issue and refuting it is not one and the same.
In adition I have known Dyolls political leaning for years. At least he did not come here declaring to be a member of one political party,while his utterances suggest the opposite.
He has always been a supporter of the JLp.
I have nothing against that. As a matter of fact I respect that.
One more thing, I have no backers here.
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You are talking nonsense, the member is seeking to deterimine the same thing that I am, namely:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... can we get Herr Gobbles to provide the evidence of?
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In adition I have known Dyolls political leaning for years. At least he did not come here declaring to be a member of one political party,while his utterances suggest the opposite.
He has always been a supporter of the JLp.</div></div>
Wait, you know more than Dyoll's political leanings I care to know?
I don't know what being a supporter of one Political Party or the other have to do with it, but let me say this unlike most other members, when the argument about Party Political support has come up, I have been first and foremost about my support of the PNP and my disappointment with the Leadership since the 70s.
But you just prove my point you have been in the forefront of continuing the division of Jamaicans according to race, shade, status and Party support.... so you are not acting out of your skin!
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You remind me of the behavior of many whites when any questionning of the lack of promotion of blacks. It is always labeled as "creating mischief"
yes as i stated in an earlier post.
every time blacks demand their equal opportunity,it is labelled as racial division.
It is not racial division when the blacks are disposessed of their opportunity,but it is racial division,when they question it.
You are in the wrong post. In here we have a little too much analytic skills to accept this one.
As I stated,he did not refute it, just attempted to trivialize it.
A usuall act of political deflection of statements that cannot be refuted..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... provide the evidence of:
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
This is the matter at hand. Can these questions be addressed, please?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... provide the evidence of:
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
This is the matter at hand. Can these questions be addressed, please? </div></div>
Check period circa 1965-71. for news on Chinese riots, aandt the Rodney riots.
The evidence on plantocracy is available in even the latest UN economic reports on Jamaica.Which concluded that the business elites only see the jamaican masses as consumers,and not entrepeneurs.
...in addition to many more damning statements.
the statistics on immigration trends from the dept of statistics,and a miriad of publication of th eeconomiic turmoil of the 70's. THE LAST QUESTION DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM ME. ask th eperson that authored it.
Warren Buffet was right when he said: "There is class warfare. And the rich is winning."
Dudd,
The blame for the condition of the masses is not to be placed on some phantom entity called the 'plantocracy' or even capitalism, as your fellow-traveller likes to claim, but largely at the feet of the masses of the electorate. It is they who have failed to demand a better system of representation and greater accountability, have put up with the tribalism, and have failed to properly utilize the democratic process. If Jamaicans rose up en masse, united, and demanded change, there is no force that could stand in their way. It is not the 'light skin' people who put the PNP in power; there aren't enough of them. And even their economic power and, as you say, their control of the media (I'm assuming you're referring to Oliver Clark and Butch Stewart, mainly, who own/control the Gleaner and Observer, respectively), cannot get their party of choice elected. If people allow themselves to be seduced with promises and to be continuously bamboozled, then whose fault is it other than theirs.
PJ Patterson's mantra was: "black man time now." He turned over the mantle of leadership to Sista P, the great 'lover of the poor.' What has been, and is, the result of stewardship "the little black bwoy from country" and that of Sista P? It's clear for you to see. Poverty and injustice is the order of the day. My honest opinion of the PNP is that, despite their posturings, they don't give a rat's [censored] about the poor except that they see them as a reliable voting block. We can talk about the fortunes of the 'light-skin' people all we want, but if the masses don't empower itself (not wait to be empowered), then things will remain the same.
I'm fed up with both parties; I wish there was a credible alternative to both of them. But given a choice between the PNP and the JLP, I would most certainly encourage people to vote for the JLP. A poor man living in the South St Andrew constituency (represented by Omar Davis, the finace minister) for example, who, in the 21st century, is still using pit toilets, would be, IMO, an idiot to continue to vote for the PNP. They have been in power for eighteen years. Surely, that's a long time, by any measure, for any administration to make a substantial contribution to any society. Every election year, citizens are told: " the economy is poised for take-off." "Look at the favorable ratings the country has received from Bear Stearns." Well, prosperity continues to elude Jamaica. The PNP keeps asking Jamaicans to give it another term to bring about the prosperity it promised. If you couldn't do it in eighteen years, on what basis can you credibly demand another term? You can't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Warren Buffet was right when he said: "There is class warfare. And the rich is winning."
Dudd,
The blame for the condition of the masses is not to be placed on some phantom entity called the 'plantocracy' or even capitalism, as your fellow-traveller likes to claim, but largely at the feet of the masses of the electorate. It is they who have failed to demand a better system of representation and greater accountability, have put up with the tribalism, and have failed to properly utilize the democratic process. If Jamaicans rose up en masse, united, and demanded change, there is no force that could stand in their way. It is not the 'light skin' people who put the PNP in power; there aren't enough of them. And even their economic power and, as you say, their control of the media (I'm assuming you're referring to Oliver Clark and Butch Stewart, mainly, who own/control the Gleaner and Observer, respectively), cannot get their party of choice elected. If people allow themselves to be seduced with promises and to be continuously bamboozled, then whose fault is it other than theirs.
PJ Patterson's mantra was: "black man time now." He turned over the mantle of leadership to Sista P, the great 'lover of the poor.' What has been, and is, the result of stewardship "the little black bwoy from country" and that of Sista P? It's clear for you to see. Poverty and injustice is the order of the day. My honest opinion of the PNP is that, despite their posturings, they don't give a rat's [censored] about the poor except that they see them as a reliable voting block. We can talk about the fortunes of the 'light-skin' people all we want, but if the masses don't empower itself (not wait to be empowered), then things will remain the same.
I'm fed up with both parties; I wish there was a credible alternative to both of them. But given a choice between the PNP and the JLP, I would most certainly encourage people to vote for the JLP. A poor man living in the South St Andrew constituency (represented by Omar Davis, the finace minister) for example, who, in the 21st century, is still using pit toilets, would be, IMO, an idiot to continue to vote for the PNP. They have been in power for eighteen years. Surely, that's a long time, by any measure, for any administration to make a substantial contribution to any society. Every election year, citizens are told: " the economy is poised for take-off." "Look at the favorable ratings the country has received from Bear Stearns." Well, prosperity continues to elude Jamaica. The PNP keeps asking Jamaicans to give it another term to bring about the prosperity it promised. If you couldn't do it in eighteen years, on what basis can you credibly demand another term? You can't.
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When was the las time any mass of citizens demand any achange of economic policy and get it without having military nuscle?/
come better than that dyoll.
plantocracy is not some phantom entoty. It is an accepted economic principle based on slaveryor near slavery. the essential ingrredient is to keep the majority so poor and create ;aws that keep them unarmed,while using bruteforce and voilence to keep them in line.
The only way for the mases to achieve equality is if the educated ones among them point it out and keep pressure for it like what happened during the CIVIL RIGHTS period in the US.
The educated are afraid to loose what they theink they have, well they have what they do at th epleasure of those who control th eeconomy.....and that is bnot citizenship. It is subserviency.
About your associating me with socialists.
I have never in my life supported socialism as an economic policy.
I believe that people should be well compensated for their work,and that includes entrepeneurs.
I was lucky enough to have studied,lectured and practiced economics in my earlier life.
i have ragued against th ebest of the communists.
i even predicted the demise of socialist USSR,and was laughed at in my days.
I know better than to promote socialiam,or any socialist system.
All i want is to see a level playing field for all races in the economy of Jamaica. Not
The lack of equal opportunity of all races in th ejamaican economy is the cornerstone of plantocracy.
About the different political parties,i don't think that it will be any better with JLp..
..but i don't vote so my views probably don't count.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong : "I don't know what being a supporter of one Political Party or the other have to do with it, but let me say this unlike most other members, when the argument about Party Political support has come up, I have been first and foremost about my support of the PNP and my disappointment with the Leadership since the 70s."
So Tuffy, you've supported the PNP for 35 years or so and have continually been disappointed?;
Why do you stay with them ?
What hope have you that they will not keep going on as they have in maintaining a failed nation?
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I am a supporter of the Party, but not the Leadership since 1972.
There are some good persons in the Party, (getting fewer by the minute).
I have not supported the Party for Governance since Michael Menlie came to power and the years have proven my suspicions about the Party choice of Leaders and hence its ability to from a Government.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You remind me of the behavior of many whites when any questionning of the lack of promotion of blacks. It is always labeled as "creating mischief"</div></div>
Here we go again with the Race baiting.
I can find no more appropriate answer to you than this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... provide the evidence of:
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
<span style="color: #990000">This is the matter at hand. Can these questions be addressed, please?</span></div></div>
....and can you please do it without adding another layer or three of confusion?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You remind me of the behavior of many whites when any questionning of the lack of promotion of blacks. It is always labeled as "creating mischief"</div></div>
Here we go again with the Race baiting.
I can find no more appropriate answer to you than this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... provide the evidence of:
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
<span style="color: #990000">This is the matter at hand. Can these questions be addressed, please?</span></div></div>
....and can you please do it without adding another layer or three of confusion? </div></div>
Yes that is the term "race baiting".
you forget that the majority of jamaicans here have experienced such reaction and are therefore immune to your namecalling to cover you ignorance of the topic at hand.
One more thing If you have been opposed to th eledership of th eparty since 1972, when were you a supporter/
You must be much older than i thought,because even me was not yet involved in politics before '72. Was too young.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You remind me of the behavior of many whites when any questionning of the lack of promotion of blacks. It is always labeled as "creating mischief"</div></div>
Here we go again with the Race baiting.
I can find no more appropriate answer to you than this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... provide the evidence of:
1. Plantocracy in Jamaica
2. the destruction of the Chinese livelihood in the 60s
3. that is was only the mis-educated Middle Class that left Jamaica in the 70s and what was the mis-education
4. the involvement of the JLP in this debacle of the choice of candidates for S.E. St. Ann.</div></div>
<span style="color: #990000">This is the matter at hand. Can these questions be addressed, please?</span></div></div>
....and can you please do it without adding another layer or three of confusion? </div></div>
Yes that is the term "race baiting".
you forget that the majority of jamaicans here have experienced such reaction and are therefore immune to your namecalling to cover you ignorance of the topic at hand.
One more thing If you have been opposed to th eledership of th eparty since 1972, when were you a supporter/
You must be much older than i thought,because even me was not yet involved in politics before '72. Was too young. </div></div>
I did ask that you please answer the questions if you can without adding additional layers of confusion.
Yes I was rather young (like many in the neighbourhood), when I discovered politics I was not even a Teenager yet. So you can revise your age, weight and other vital stats downwards.
But what exactly is the topic @ hand?
Is it the age, race, shade and other Party affiliation of members on this board?
There is still the tiny matter of the questions you have neglected to answer.
What about them?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When was the las time any mass of citizens demand any achange of economic policy and get it without having military nuscle?/
come better than that dyoll.
plantocracy is not some phantom entoty. It is an accepted economic principle based on slaveryor near slavery. the essential ingrredient is to keep the majority so poor and create ;aws that keep them unarmed,while using bruteforce and voilence to keep them in line.
The only way for the mases to achieve equality is if the educated ones among them point it out and keep pressure for it like what happened during the CIVIL RIGHTS period in the US.
The educated are afraid to loose what they theink they have, well they have what they do at th epleasure of those who control th eeconomy.....and that is bnot citizenship. It is subserviency.
</div></div>
It takes a great deal of cynicism, in my view, to believe that change is difficult to achieve without armed revolution. I can't accept that. The people of Jamaica can do it, without firing a shot, and without burning down the city of Kingston. A righteous (not in the religious sense of the word) cause doesn't need guns. The fact that there haven't been much of these movements, does not, in my opinion, give credence to the view that it can't be done. The success of the civil rights movement, a peaceful movement, is enough to diminish the force of your argument.
The lack of access to equal opportunity for all Jamaicans, which is lamentable, is not the fault of the business class. Education, which can make many things possible, is being placed out of the reach of those who need it most. There is a large underclass of citizens left out of the educational system at all levels. They are left to fate - crime and violence, poverty, disease. The PNP comes up with all kinds of excuses as to why it cannot provide free education to, at the mimimum, the end of high school. Now it can blame the JLP all it wants for dismantling free education (and yes, the JLP deserves blame for that), but the fact is that they have been in power for 18 years and have not remedied the problem, only created excuses. It can no longer be plausible to point to the JLP administration of the 80s when you have been at the reigns for 18 years.
It might be dismissed as simplistic by even you, but I do believe that a society can educate its way out of its problems. Of course, I'm not suggesting that education is all that is required; access to capital, for instance, is another factor. Why is an education - a sound education - so important? It's not neccesarily because you learn skills to become a proficient accountant, or attorney, or physician, but also because you would have acquired skills in critical thinking and problem-solving, as well as ethical values and citizenship. You also more imaginative and possibly more entrepreneurial.
I will concede that many Jamaicans will run into a stumbling block with the lack of access to the capital needed to bring their ideas to fruition. But in many societies, through government initiatives and policies, entreprenuers can gain access to funding; indeed, by those same policies, finaniers are encouraged, through various incentives, to provide capital to those individuals. The high interest rates regime in Jamaica is enough of a deterent to potential small business owners. And how many venture capital firms are there in Jamaica? Of those that exist, how many provide funding to start-ups? And what is their capital base anyway? The one led by David Panton a few years ago before its demise had a meagre $45 million. Businesses are driven by their self-interests; Adam Smith was right. If businesses see the potential for high returns in a venture, they will invest in it because they will have much to gain with its success.
Is there a critical mass of skills in Jamaica to create an explosion in entreprenuership given the lack of access to educational opportunities and advancement and a large segment of unemployable people? I think not. And it goes back to education. So, I'm afraid, I can't accept your thesis of a 'plantocracy' working to keep the masses in their place. Rather, it is the policies of the PNP administration. You may be tempted to tell me that I am burying my head in the sand, but you will have to come with a more well-reasoned and compelling argument.
Dyoll 73,
Dr. Dudd does have a very valid point in saying that serious change in systems such as are in effect in Jamaica and other poor countries were always difficult to make happen via the ballot and are getting even more difficult to make happen.
In the first place, in a capitalist system which is what Jamaica has for an economy, the wealth and therefore the power are concentrated in the hands of a very few who have no interest in sharing either their wealth nor their power. They have a vested interest in the status quo under which they do so well and it would be the extraordinary rich and powerful or privileged person who would work toward a more egalitarian system when it would adversely affect their own way of life.
Those with the money control the political system in one way or the other. Most politicians in a capitalist society have already internalized the favorability of capitalism and the top-down electoral system and even if they, as individuals, somehow made it into a position of power and THEN had a change of heart and decided to change the system, their party hierarchy would not allow it.
As Dr.Dudd asks; 'When was the last time any mass of citizens demanded a change of economic policy and got it without being better armed than the police and armed forces?
The top-down and undemocratic two or multi-party electoral system entrenched in Jamaica (and the U.S.) so long that people find it impossible to imagine a bottom-up grass roots and responsive DEMOCRATIC electoral system makes change via the ballot impossible.
Further as time goes on, the media ownership, already reactionary or very conservative and pro-status quo gets more and more concentrated as smaller media outlets are bought uop by larger corporations which in themselves are even more locked into the status quo.
What is needed is a people's party that is organized from the bottom up. With the candidates nominated by the people themselves, then elected by their constituencies who, under the rules of that people's party will have the power over their representative to tell them what to work for, how to vote and also the power to remove them for non-performance for the benefit of their constituents.
This cannot happen with a largely illiterate populace living in a country where rumour alone can kill the idea and where the powers that be and the media can poison minds against any independent people's party.
It's what Noam Chomsky called mind control under freedom of the press.
Still, using Venezuela as an example there is a chance of serious system change even though the story is far from being over in that country.
It takes the right person at the right time with the population ready for change for it all to fall together.
Jamaicans are too fractionalized, have largely bought into the ideas that what is and has been is what will be, have no inspirational leaders for change and are too easily led by the nose to believe what they are told by those in power to make the moves necessary for change.
Things will have to get a lot worse before they can get better
Fri Jun 15, 2007 PNP President publicly endorses Lisa Hanna’s candidacy
Peoples National Party (PNP) President Portia Simpson Miller Thursday night publicly endorsed the candidate she handpicked to run in South East St. Ann.
It is the first time that Mrs. Simpson Miller was commenting publicly on Lisa Hanna’s candidacy since news broke that the former Miss World was selected to represent the PNP.
Miss Hanna's candidacy was formally confirmed this week by PNP General Secretary Donald Buchanan, after Mrs. Simpson Miller left the island for Geneva.
Speaking at a rally in Harbour View in East Rural St. Andrew Thursday night, minutes after she stepped on local soil, Mrs. Simpson Miller described the new candidate as a woman of brain and beauty.
“The last addition to seal the team of the Peoples National Party candidates is not about beauty it’s about brains. It’s a bright woman who happens to be very pretty but to become Miss World you have to be very intelligent because that is a major factor to become Miss World,” said Mrs. Simpson Miller.
Miss Hanna met fierce resistance after news broke two weeks ago that she was selected to replace Aloun Assamba as the candidate for South East. Ann.
But party supporters in the strong PNP constituency appear to be coming around as silence has greeted the formal announcement.
In the meantime, our News Centre understands that scores of constituents are taking part in a tour of the constituency at this hour during which Miss Hanna will be formally introduced.
A pity that Jamaica is surrounded by sea. Entrapping most of its inhabitants away from the world outside, preventing them from travel, as the costs to fly or sail are so out of reach.
By travelling they would only see what it is that engineers others societies into means of better and for that matter, worst.
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