'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

doc the weakness in the argument is the assumption that the majority of the criminals place the same value on their life as you or i.


seems to me in the Jamaican context the more logical criminals do weigh the risk and if it unacceptable they just get somebody else to do the job for them.( maybe some young fearless teenager)

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> doc the weakness in the argument is the suumption that the majority of the criminals place the same value on their life as you or i.


seems to me in the jamaican context the more logical criminals do weight the risk and if it unaccetable they just get sombody else to do the job form them.( maybe some young fearless teenager)
</div></div> Unless you can point out any incidence of of suicide killing by the majorioty of th ecriminals your argumant is mere un founded speculation. If they don't value thei lives,why do they not walk in the police station and stand their ground ad fignt?
Your opoint has no basis in the facts of the situation. Convince me, because I am believe that just to slow to get what you are suggesting, but I am willing to listen.

[RichD]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

well if you believe the police ...criminals in Jamaica do seem to be very suicidal ..almost daily they open fire on well armed groups of policemen when only very lightly armed them self.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well if you believe the police ...criminals in Jamaica do seem to be very suicidal ..almost daily they open fire on well armed groups of policemen when only very lightly armed them self. </div></div> Yes I believe the police and I have a clock at parade to sell cheap,cheap.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

Gunman shot during robbery
Saturday, 02 February 2008
An alleged gunman was on Saturday morning shot and injured as he reportedly attempted to rob a house in Old Harbour in St. Catherine.

The injured man has been identified as 24-year-old Paul Rainford of the Old Harbour Bay Fishing beach.

Rainford was charged with burglary, assault at common-law and illegal possession of a firearm and ammunition.

It is reported that about 12.30am, the owner of the house was awoken by strange sounds in the building and went to investigate with his licensed firearm in hand.

He called out to the robber who was in the process of searching a room.

Rainford reportedly opened fire on the homeowner who in turn shot at him.

Rainford has been admitted to hospital under police guard

[neutral]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

In response to wardob :

I do understand that there are people like yourself that carry firearms in a responsible manner,two of my uncles carry firearm,admittedly one of them is a police inspector,..I also have a cousin who carry a firearm,there was an attempt on his life recently by gunmen,supposedly to take the gun away,he was very lucky although his pick-up wasnt,it ended up with 6 bullet holes in the windscreen

On the other hand,one of my brother was involved in a fist fight with a licensed gun holder,who drew his weapon during the fight,luckily for my brother the gun holder ended up getting shot with his own weapon,..one of my dearest friend was shot and killed by a security guard,my friend wasnt even armed,the only thing he threw at this guy was some cuss words.

I dont advocate the carrying of guns in jamaica because I think the mind-set is to use them at the slightest provocation.
If there was no guns then people would settle their arguments with less loss of life.
Here in the Uk with a population of 68 million people there are far less murder by guns in a year than there is in Jamaica,I think there were about 59 people murdered by guns last year (most of those young black men murdering other young black men)
the less guns there are,the less chance of people using them to murder each other,I just dont think the right social,economical,and moral structures are in place (as yet) for Jamaicans to freely carry guns.

[Wahalla]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

I hardly think any one who fires guns at birds is repectable. I have a rabid dislike for people who shoot for sport things they cannot even eat! I recall some poltican and his crew unloaded a shot gun into the face of a cow of ours for shere pleasure.... If they need sexual gratification shoot cans, not gods creatures.... Who remebers the September.. it is long gone....Who recalls the waves of sparrow of our youth....

I also know a promient poltician who went shooting and he was the only person who asked permission to cross our land ever.. to me bird shooters should be excuted ex juduica...

Modern guns are designed to do one thing and one thing only kill people....The sole reason for the mass ownership of guns is that the state has failed to protect its citzens... what is happening at the moment the more fortunate can buy this protection from private security... And they can protect homes with bars ect... Mass ownership of weapons is admitting what infact is the state of play in Jamica.. The state justice system has ailed.. It is allowing the individual to protect himself....Would I own a gun in the UK ???? No, I would not...But when I walk into the valley of death as often as I have, I undererstand the comfort of the "barrel and trigger"....

There were cases where killsomeians rented guns come to rob locals in country a few years back.. There was a spate of bar invasions.. Then there was a case in Manchester when three unfortunates tried it in a bar in Walderstone... Unfortunately they picked the wrong bar.. Two entered and one crawled out begging for his mama... There was for gun owners in the bar and they unloaded on the sucker..

I was in a bar and it was invaded by some Killsoemians ... I recall the gun owner who pushed the gun into the back of the invader head and said "sey fey if yu tink yu bad"...

I even know local police will ask when they do a road block if you have a gun....I was in a car with a fren and he was asjed.. he said no.... But asked if he had said yes what would happen...He was told " mi know yu, mi woulda let yu guh"

I know a cople farmers down south who had shoot outs with melon rustlers....

When the state can offer justice it can ban weapons.. until it can it has no right to do harm by prohibiting people from protecting themselves.. it is compliste in the death....

[Diplomat]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in the Uk with a population of 68 million people there are far less murder by guns in a year than there is in Jamaica,I think there were about 59 people murdered by guns last year (most of those young black men murdering other young black men)</div></div>
Generally speaking, isn't that (the bolded portion) the real issue though? While I agree that a gun is the first weapon of choice amongst those prone to violence, the issue for me is not so much wether there's a ban on handguns or not, but what provokes our black men to be destroying each other. It doesn't seem to matter whether or not it is in JA, UK, USA - black on black violence is a recurring theme.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the less guns there are,the less chance of people using them to murder each other,I just dont think the right social,economical,and moral structures are in place (as yet) for Jamaicans to freely carry guns. </div></div>
I agree with you in principle, and so the alternative is a ban on citizens bearing arms. I don't think such a law would be effective though simply because violence is far too entrenched in the pysche of some. Successive governments have created and unleashed a monster that cannot be put back into the bottle. Until communities across the length and breath of the land decides enough is enough and take responsibility for their communities and what's happening in them, not much else is going to work. Somebody, somewhere, is 'protecting' the bad guys.

[neutral]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in the Uk with a population of 68 million people there are far less murder by guns in a year than there is in Jamaica,I think there were about 59 people murdered by guns last year (most of those young black men murdering other young black men)</div></div>
Generally speaking, isn't that (the bolded portion) the real issue though? While I agree that a gun is the first weapon of choice amongst those prone to violence, the issue for me is not so much wether there's a ban on handguns or not, but what provokes our black men to be destroying each other. It doesn't seem to matter whether or not it is in JA, UK, USA - black on black violence is a recurring theme.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the less guns there are,the less chance of people using them to murder each other,I just dont think the right social,economical,and moral structures are in place (as yet) for Jamaicans to freely carry guns. </div></div>
I agree with you in principle, and so the alternative is a ban on citizens bearing arms. I don't think such a law would be effective though simply because violence is far too entrenched in the pysche of some. Successive governments have created and unleashed a monster that cannot be put back into the bottle. Until communities across the length and breath of the land decides enough is enough and take responsibility for their communities and what's happening in them, not much else is going to work. Somebody, somewhere, is 'protecting' the bad guys.
</div></div>

I absolutely agree with you on all your points,seems to me that the driving force for young black men to murder each other is in most cases a serious lack of a father figure,..but as you say its a recurring theme regardless of the country,so we all need to take a good look at ourselves as black people and question why it is that black people are so violent towards each other.

" I don't think such a law would be effective though simply because violence is far too entrenched"

One of the main reasons why the violence in Jamaica has steadily got more brutal and barbaric,young people are growing up to accept it as part of Jamaican culture,its imbued in them from very early on that violent retribution is what gains respect.

[Wardob]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun


To Newtral:- Without a doubt there are people who hold firearm license, that are irresponsible and as you point out are too quick to settle an issue with firearms rather than, other means, my opinion is such person or persons if a license holder should have their license revoked.

I remember the days when I would walk to Gallo Creek, with my Grand Dad old Winchester 12G D/B Shot Gun, a plastic hook and line and an old paint pan full with squids and spoiled lobsters for bate, along with maybe 6-10 12 Gauge cartridges in my pocket. I was going fishing and shooting not for sport but for meat on the table, a Ball Plate a White Wing or a Duck means meat on the table on Sunday. So for sport no and certainly what I got from the butt kick of that old Winchester was sore jaw and shoulder not sexual gratification. For that, I use my pop’s 45 S&W to shoot pans and bottles and dam it felt good then. Not as good today as I discover other means

There is no ban on firearms in Jamaica, there is no problem in obtaining a firearm license in Jamaica, from what I am reading Dr. you believes that it’s not available to the average Jamaican who wants it, and that’s your beef. I don’t agree,I say its available all he or she has to do is to meet the requirements as set out by the board; as a matter of fact the process is better more honest open and even, than before. You may disagree but it true

If what we are saying is abandon the restrictions, just do it, like for example the State of Florida or I should say the City of Orlando.
Where you can walk into a gun shop on a Saturday, fill out the permit forms, pay a fee, have your prints and picture taken, and sit the 4 hrs. Class listening to some firearm expert explains the laws governing its use and how to keep and care the weapon, after which you receive your certificate. Mail it in to the Department of Agriculture with the require fee your certificate, pictures and prints. Wait 3 moths your permits comes in the mail. Go back to the gun shop or any gun shop better yet just wait around for a Gun Show, purchase any weapon in any quantity you want along with any quantity of ammunition and then go about your business. All criminal beware, here I come

Dr. with all due respect, logics and all In the Country where we are from, from my point of view God help us if we reach that stage that guns are so freely readily available. The process as is is liberal enough

[Sofisa]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To Newtral:- Without a doubt there are people who hold firearm license, that are irresponsible and as you point out are too quick to settle an issue with firearms rather than, other means, my opinion is such person or persons if a license holder should have their license revoked.

I remember the days when I would walk to Gallo Creek, with my Grand Dad old Winchester 12G D/B Shot Gun, a plastic hook and line and an old paint pan full with squids and spoiled lobsters for bate, along with maybe 6-10 12 Gauge cartridges in my pocket. I was going fishing and shooting not for sport but for meat on the table, a Ball Plate a White Wing or a Duck means meat on the table on Sunday. So for sport no and certainly what I got from the butt kick of that old Winchester was sore jaw and shoulder not sexual gratification. For that, I use my pop’s 45 S&W to shoot pans and bottles and dam it felt good then. Not as good today as I discover other means

There is no ban on firearms in Jamaica, there is no problem in obtaining a firearm license in Jamaica, from what I am reading Dr. you believes that it’s not available to the average Jamaican who wants it, and that’s your beef. I don’t agree,I say its available all he or she has to do is to meet the requirements as set out by the board; as a matter of fact the process is better more honest open and even, than before. You may disagree but it true

If what we are saying is abandon the restrictions, just do it, like for example the State of Florida or I should say the City of Orlando.
Where you can walk into a gun shop on a Saturday, fill out the permit forms, pay a fee, have your prints and picture taken, and sit the 4 hrs. Class listening to some firearm expert explains the laws governing its use and how to keep and care the weapon, after which you receive your certificate. Mail it in to the Department of Agriculture with the require fee your certificate, pictures and prints. Wait 3 moths your permits comes in the mail. Go back to the gun shop or any gun shop better yet just wait around for a Gun Show, purchase any weapon in any quantity you want along with any quantity of ammunition and then go about your business. All criminal beware, here I come

Dr. with all due respect, logics and all In the Country where we are from, from my point of view God help us if we reach that stage that guns are so freely readily available. The process as is is liberal enough </div></div>
Sure the good Dr. will respond as he sees fit, but I gotta jump in here. The process does not go before a board, just one beaurocrat, the Supt of police for the area. Criterias inviolve letter of competency, land/home ownership, amount of money handled daily, preferably above $50k in addition to background check, and medical clearance letter. At this point you go before him for an interview and he alone deems who is worthy. BTW, all fees paid are non-refundable, even if its just the Officers opinion that you are unworthy. There is nothing open and fair about that.

So what is wrong with doing the class and passing background checks (fingerprints) and given permission to own what you can afford? i was at a bar in Jamaica. A man left in his car and came back on a bicycle. Gunmen pulled up alongside him and took his car, money and the $400 of the passing cyclist. Suddenly everyone was in a mad dash to close the bar. Try that in Florida!

God help the criminals if guns get that liberal in Ja, cuz they would the one running for cover from citizens and the lawmen alike. As for the State, they would respect ppl's civil rights. No more "draping up" big man and recklessly kicking off doors and shooting up ppl house at will.

[neutral]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

I dont know about the process for acquiring a gun in Jamaica,or the criterias that one needs to satisfy,however I do know Wardob that its not as easy as you say.
I think in the mix there are palms to grease,people to bribe,and backhanders to give out,...at least that has been the experience of people I know who own guns legitimately there.

[Wardob]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

Newtral the process is far, far easy, easer in comparison to what it was, ask Dr. he knows, I bet he have about two Glocks somewhere in Ja. Like Sofisa you are looking at the old ways of acquiring a firearm in Jamaica, I would advise Sofisa to check again at the Tax office and ask how to go about acquiring a firearm license, No one man make any decision of who get or don’t get a firearm.. I recall you had said a cousin or one of your family member is an inspector of police, don’t take my word for it ask him, as a matter of fact returning resident now get top priority.
No more grease palm, no more bribery or backdoor deal.

“So what is wrong with doing the class and passing background checks (fingerprints) and given permission to own what you can afford? … Sofisa

I did not say anything is wrong with such process, Floridians like it I was just asking a question if that is the kind of system you would like to see in Jamaica, just a question. I gather from what you wrote your answer is yes, can’t quarrel with your opinion.

“I was at a bar in Jamaica. A man left in his car and came back on a bicycle.
Gunmen pulled up alongside him and took his car, money and the $400 of the passing cyclist. Suddenly everyone was in a mad dash to close the bar. Try that in Florida!”. Sofisa

Try that in Florida? By that you mean it cannot or does not happen? You joking ? You serious? Talk to the Mayor of Orlando and hear what he saying about gun crime, again don’t take my word for it, but with all the private guns owners in Orlando the city as more gun related crime and as stated fast becoming the murder capital of USA. Check around the Board and ask if anyone lives in Rivera Beach, ask them how the gun crime out deh.

“As for the State, they would respect ppl's civil rights. No more "draping up" big man and recklessly kicking off doors and shooting up ppl house at will.” ….Sofisa

Seet deh, so mi say

[Wardob]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

Sofisa maybe this will help.
One thing you will have to learn around here, make certain you know what you are talking about before you write. This was taken form JIS Web-Site. Check it yourself

To ensure transparency and reduce the potential for corruption in the issuance of firearm licences government intends to establish a new independent gun licencing regime, Minister of National Security Dr. Peter Phillips has said.
Speaking at Wednesday's (May 19) sitting of the 2004/05 Sectoral Debate in Gordon House, Dr. Phillips acceded that, "over the years, there have been continuing allegations of corruption in the issuing of firearm licences, including the issuing of licences to persons of questionable character. with the proliferation of guns in the society, we must ensure that licenced firearms do not end up in the hands of unscrupulous persons".
He informed that under this new regime applications would be made to an independent central licensing authority, comprising a retired judge, a retired DPP (or senior member of that department) and a retired senior police officer.
All applicants must be able to satisfy the competent authority that they are fit and proper persons to qualify for a licence and must demonstrate a genuine need to be armed. An inventory of all licences issued to private citizens and security firms will be established.
"The information on both the weapon and the holder of the licence will be combined through new and modern technology. The unique characteristic of each weapon will form part of the database," he explained. The authority will seek advice from the Jamaica Constabulary Force (JCF) as to the character of persons, but the grant of a licence will no longer reside with the JCF.


The newly constituted Board of the Independent Central Firearm Licensing Authority will hold its first meeting on Friday, February 17.
Chairman, former Chief of Staff of the Jamaica Defence Force (JDF), Major General John Simmonds, as his first duty, will preside over the selection of a Chief Executive Officer (CEO) for the authority.
The other Board members are: Attorney-at-law, Ethan Sinclair; former Deputy Commissioner of Police, Noel Eldridge; former Commissioner of Customs, Allison Moore; Rodney Conway S. Chin of the Rifle Association of Jamaica, and George Overton of the Security Industry.
The Independent Central Firearm Licensing Authority will be the body charged with the granting of firearm licences in Jamaica. This will effectively remove this function from the local area Police.
In the event that an application is rejected, applicants may appeal to a Review Board, chaired by Justice Clarence Walker, who will be assisted by former Director of Public Prosecutions, Glen Andrade and former Assistant Commissioner of Police, Isadore Hibbert.

[Sofisa]

Re: 'She gave up her life for us' - Mother testifies against gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sofisa maybe this will help.
One thing you will have to learn around here, make certain you know what you are talking about before you write. This was taken form JIS Web-Site. Check it yourself </div></div>

If you have something to share then do so without the condescension, and so while I thank you for pointing out that there is a new procedure, you need to hop off your high asz and heed your own advice by checking out what the law actually states.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">38(5) The appropriate authority for the grant, amendment
or revocation of any Firearm User’s Licence or Firearm
Disposal Permit or Firearm User’s (Employee’s) Certificate
shall be the chief officer of police for the parish or
police division in which the applicant for such licence, permit
or certificate resides or carries on business </div></div>
http://www.moj.gov.jm/laws/statutes/...arms%20Act.pdf (Page 40 )

At least we agree it would help to keep the state in check.