White Madonna with Twins

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix_di_PM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct mi if mi wrang, but it look seh di lady getting a rash from di neckliss.

</div></div>



mi still love the painting.

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, his work is very beautiful and well balanced, i love the way he plays with the literal, abstract and the senses. </div></div>

yes, his stuff is truly multidimensional. did u check out the Holy Virgin Mary pic (from the link)? i have to say the cutouts of the butts and genitalia a little disconcerting up close, but the painting hangs together in a weird and wonderful way all the same.

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

Still observing it, will respond in the morning.

[Suesumba]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

this is beautiful. the elephant dung stand and necklace is just brilliant!!!

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still observing it, will respond in the morning. </div></div>
okay, forgot ur in a different time zone. take care.

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

this is beautiful. the elephant dung stand and necklace is just brilliant!!! </div></div>

i don't know if he's still making art like this today, it seems to have been a period in his life. i haven't heard that he's produced anything as controversial as Holy Virgin Mary since that work first appeared.

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It`s art....there are no reason why a white woman shouldnt be holding black babies,or vice versa,but things being what they are anyone wishing to make an argument for, or against,then there is enough fodder to stoke the fire. </div></div>

There is no reason why she shouldn't be holding them, but breastfeeding them?
Should white people be feeding black people at all? Can they?

[neutral]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Should white people be feeding black people at all? Can they?
</div></div>


Ok,let`s go along with this line of reasoning for a moment,....let me call your white people feeding black people and raise you a .........ok why not..?

Are you suggesting that white people and black people are not equal,or you suggesting the white milk too rich fe de black pickney..?

[Suesumba]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Are you suggesting that white people and black people are not equal,or you suggesting the white milk too rich fe de black pickney..? </div></div>

... and riding on neutral coat tails: wabbout alla dem white chirren in the old south who were nursed by their black mammies? did that black milk instill some sort of <span style="font-weight: bold">[insert deep psychological/physical, anything flaw here]</span> on them?

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Should white people be feeding black people at all? Can they?
</div></div>


Ok,let`s go along with this line of reasoning for a moment,....let me call your white people feeding black people and raise you a .........ok why not..?

Are you suggesting that white people and black people are not equal,or you suggesting the white milk too rich fe de black pickney..? </div></div>
no it is too weak, she should have used a bottle.
but i was not there

I am referring to the emptiness of it all. The child is not getting any milk at all. Is it?

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Are you suggesting that white people and black people are not equal,or you suggesting the white milk too rich fe de black pickney..? </div></div>

... and riding on neutral coat tails: wabbout alla dem white chirren in the old south who were nursed by their black mammies? did that black milk instill some sort of <span style="font-weight: bold">[insert deep psychological/physical, anything flaw here]</span> on them?



</div></div>
I looked on the naturalness in my first remarks. If she was lactating then that would have made a different statement.
The most capable mother according to the immediate needs of the child is best suitable to meet the needs of the child.
This woman in this image isnt whereas in the south the black nannies were.

black milk

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

So MGee.


Interesting is what I think when I think about why I think what I think about both images.

Just before I got to this point in thinking, I was like no, you cannot compare the work of Vanessa Beecroft with Chris Ofili.

I still find Chris work to be of a more superior nature when it comes to art, and has a greater reach. However both works(the two images in comparison) possess great qualities.

I do not find Vanessas work to be as creative, we have seen it before in many forms. It is just an expression of a real life experience which I suspect her of insinuating just for this piece.

The artist is also a subject besides his art. So what is new about Chris's work? Is he also not an element of blacksploitation being the artist of his work? It is also a question of who has the rights to explore black culture.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are the artist's actions acceptable?</div></div>
Exploration they call it, I say it is exploitation. 'Black people' seem to be artists exams.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">does it increase our understanding of our own perceptions of race, motherhood, childhood, etc.?</div></div>
It does not increase for me but reinforces.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you equate this image with that of the black madonna?</div></div>
I identify firstly with the children and sympathize with them I never got to the point of seeing her as a black Madonna because anger arose.

And the identity is perhaps the most interesting part, with Chris's Virgin Mary, I laugh and accept it as satire. Now if I said my Holy Marys daily, I am sure that I would not find that funny, I would be as mad as seeing the black women exploited for the career of the artist. Not only that, the image of Saint Mary would be considered ruined. Even my image of the artist has an effect on how I take his messages. If Chris was white even to degree I would have accepted that Virgin Mary differently. It could range from satire to insult and I think this is also an issue for many that resent this piece.

Should both works have not been created? Hard to say, that would rely on the question whether people respond the same way when an image in their head is being exploited or a real human being. Or whether making icons would be the best compared.
It is about getting the message across and to me both works were very successful in creating the messages but failed because of all the noise.

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

interesting insights, sukuna. i agree with most of what u say. both ofili and beecroft have created works that have caused controversy, but i think the artistic impulse behind the work may have been greater in ofili. i can't escape the feeling that beecroft was thinking of the &quot;eclat&quot; of her work, the publicity it would garner, and that this may have been the main reason for her creating it than for achieving any artistic fulfilment in herself. i may be misjudging her and overcompensating for ofili because of who i am and where i stand reviewing the artworks, but so it go.

[mountaingal]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

A parody &quot;negative&quot; of the beecroft work: The Madonna of Laibachdorf. The &quot;madonna&quot; here is a drag queen and performance artist called Vaginal Davis.

[rufian]

Re: White Madonna with Twins

First off, I find this a valid response, at least he is not putting his inappropriate breasts into their mouths.

http://www.reakt.org/texts/reakt_4_vdasvb_short.pdf

Do you think that any of these images work? I mean the intent stated by the artists.