The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

[britisha]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't see that the <span style="font-weight: bold">shystem</span> was designed against BLACKS IN Jamaica, and against the oppressed in any (ex)colony, then I rest my case.</div></div>

Nope I don't see it, you and others who say so have presented zero evidence other Slavery of 200 years old vintage, personal anecdotes of you family that does not begin to answer questions such as was your family the right size, were your parents employed to their optimum level, was this the same across the board for every black family, what era, etc?</div></div>

I see we are getting nowhere with this. Are you saying that life in Jamaica in the 50's up until now was one of prosperity and personal actualization for the average Jamaican? What optimum level of employment are you talking about? Many of us as I hinted above have NOT optimized our goals. Why? Because of the shoddy system where we never had the social amenities to pursue <span style="font-weight: bold">life liberty and even justice</span> to borrow from our neighbours.


Although I bragged about the system then, that it wa better for children than now, it was seriously lacking and wanting.

Before Independence when children sat the common Entrance Exams, only SOME CHILDREN passed, because as it was revealed later there was dishonesty AND favoritism AMONG THE TESTERS WHO PASSED those who they were told to, so to speak of optimum level, when a child fails such an exam and graduate from primary school without a skill, how optimized can he be? ...and I am picking up from you that the illiterate blacks spread their beds hard so they must lay in it hard, after they were denied even the chance to compete in mainstream society...VERY NICE...


It shouldn't be difficult for anyone to follow what I am saying, The playing field in Jamaica was not such to allow anyone black to REALLY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM, BECOZZ THERE WAS No-thing TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, SO TO SPEAK....your course was already pre-charted on treacherous waters, unless people made up their minds to migrate.

..and on this note I must say God Bless Norman Washington Manley for he was the first to speak of FREE HIGH SCHOOL education for all Jamaica children, regardless of class or economic background, as long as the child has the ambition and the aptitude.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You are also conveniently conflating the issue of the Mahfood advantage with so-called mistreatment by White Slave Masters.</div></div>

You who??? How can I [if you are addressing me} when I told you and will say it again, they do NOT interest me, so I couldn't lavish any time on them to such an extent to be guilty of that.

Let me ask you, did you ever see a majority of blacks in any of the government offices? How many black bank managers do you remember seeing? Or how many blacks were in charge of any factory or had access to significant means of production? Was this a result of blacks being just wukliss, or dunkyah or was there a deeper underlying cause for this? There is so much I'd like to say.

Now, My comment WAS in response to this and I quote<span style="font-weight: bold">

&quot;Why would you trust the inhabitants of a country where your family and its business dealings are all ways viewed at in hostile terms.


Oh please Tuff Gong. The hostility came because of the position of privilege these people were given when Black people couldn't even get a job in the banks, much less a LOAN from the bank to set up a business in Jamaica. (Until relatively recently, a person darker than a certain shade couldn't even get a job as bank teller). They were content to take advantage of the situation and do nothing to help the majority in the society who were being kept down. They colluded with the British during the colonial era and build their wealth because of it. On top of it, they keep to themselves and don't intermix with Black Jamaicans as if they think they are better than us. tell y
Remember the Mahfoods are so-called White Jamaicans and their rise to prominence was concurrent with ours.
You have to answer the question in that period.</span>

My comments were to deny your assertions that blacks who rioted for whatever reason during the seventies are the cause of Jamaica's current spiral into the economic abyss..::LOL:: and I supported Tropicana's claim [fact] that blacks were treated worse than the dogs owned by racists in the society then, to put it mildly, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

They were not Slave owners, so any advantage they had over us must have been during the time when we black skinned people were front and center in leadership. Provide the answers to those questions...what went wrong?
</div></div>


No one said they were slave owners..as such.. You err immensely...when black people were in leadership? Are you serious? What black people, the *high* colour :LOL: mulattoes who you allude were also perpetuating racism against some of us? What leadership? when did we get so-called Independence? Barely 47 years ago...according to the piece *those people* are in bizniz in Jamaica for over 70 years...from we were singing &quot;Rule Brittania&quot;...so you lost me here. They got their business foot in the door when the British were the ones calling the shots


anyways...mi no relish talking bout these peeps so after my next response that will be it for this thread.

[britisha]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened in the 70s and thereafter doesn't erase, or remove the reasons for the untold mass suffering that we are witnessing today.</div></div>You are agreeing with me here.
It is precisely the problems of the 70s why we are in this pickle not Slavery.</div></div>


On the contrary, I was disagreeing with you...I said the happenings of the 70's did NOT eradicate the reasons for the mass sufferings etc...in other words, those reasons that existed BEFORE THE 70's, still exist after the incidences you referred to; and in fact there is a direct correlation between them and the largess of slavery...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]

It is funny how you say we lived in peaceful co-existence. That is absolutely not true. There was an attack on Chinese even as early as 40s I think. We were always raised to despise Chinese and Indians, even though the taunts were harmless, they were conditioning that was carefully handed down through generations.</div></div>That might have been the case, and I don't know of the attack you talked about, however in comparison to now, and other countries then, we co-existed peacefully<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Conversely as Black as my Grandma who raised us was we could never mention Africa in her presence. She never taught us about slavery and my parents never one day mentioned it either.
This is both monumentally bad and in some ways good.
Bad because we never got a chance to explore the terrible effects of slavery in a rational and progressive way, which would have help us to get past it and move on. Good because the slate was blank and we could but for our own physical and mental limitations be anything and all we wanted to be...or so we thought till the evil politics of the 70s, when idiotic arguments which had been swirling around the verandahs and workplaces became political policies and we were told that the best way to get ahead was to burn, loot and drive out the 21 Families out of Jamaica.</div></div> I see we came from different backgrounds...my parents used to tell us about slavery, especially of the torture that the slaves endured; on August 1st the so-called Emancipation Day....<span style="font-weight: bold">

I think we are still fighting the last failed war. If Blackman Time Now left us with the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since slavery was abolished why are we still advocating that?

Why are we still blaming collectively a group of Jamaicans who are successful even with the lot that they were handed? Why not use their success as a lab to see what positives we can take from it? </span>

It is grossly unfair to keep harping on the falsehood that people are blaming those people for the current pickle that Jamaica is in socially and economically.

# # # # # #

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never did I say you had a bad life or that you were poor. You have posted about some of the problems you had with the PNP et. al.</div></div>

I never had a problem with the PNP; I was born and raised a PNP Supporter. I have a problem with corrupt PNP Leadership which have been epitomized in the form of Menlie-The-Younger, PJoke Patterson and Portia Simpson-Miller who have all used violent, racist, shadeist language and polices to govern Jamaica.

I see you are itching for a story and I will give it to you.
Sit forward it will be long, I have never said it before and it dovetails nicely into the 70s and the 21 Families.

At the start of the 70s the area where I lived supplied the maids, gardeners, masons and assorted tradesmen and women to the rich, wealthy, middle class and the powerful of Kingston and its environs.

Our area was nestled nicely between upper Kingston and Trench Town. If you are going up to down or down to up you had to pass through our area.
We had highest concentration of Chinese Shops in the country and Jamaican White lived and owned businesses in the area.

In 1972 when Menlie won with the mantra betta must come 90% of the Chinese lost their shops to vandals, they all eventually closed, even though they still to this day own the lands.
One of the most advanced wheel alignment business in the Caribbean, which happened to be owned by White Jamaicans was forced to close shop and the property occupied by Comrades fleeing the wars in Trench Town and Arnett Gardens.

All our pretty fences were torn down, because they not only threw the Chinese out but Anyone who the vandals had a petty grudge with was labeled as a spy, informer, labourite or all the above. Most of the young girls were battreyed and we were gifted by a crocus bag of guns.
First it was the homemade cast off guns from Jungle, and then it was an upgrade to even more powerful weapons.

Fast-forward to 1974 and Michael Menlie declared that the country was going to become a Socialist Country. He made the announcement in Trench Town, walking distance from my home.
Then the five flight a Day rule and the Nationalizations.

The country under the grip of demo-cratic Sole-cism instituted all kinds of failed policies including foreign exchange regulations, which served a dual purpose one of which was to rein in and keep tabs on the Capitalist Class. Of course this led to instant riches for smugglers.... this is where the 21 families, others and I come in.
I became on of the youngest members of a ring whose sole purpose was to supply and/or smuggle foreign exchange and any other paperwork folks needed. The ring included some members of the 21 families (who needed foreign exchange, smuggling services, paperwork and goods), The National Commercial Bank, owned by the People of Jamaica (which needed ForEx and had many paperwork that others needed), Hagglers (who could get ForEx) and at least one South American Diplomat, who had problems getting US Hard Currency but could smuggle into Jamaica any Electronics goods, get us paperwork and move ForEx if we needed an extra hand.
This unholy alliance caused by a corrupt Government lasted well into the 80s it later spread to prostitutes who would drive from one area in Spanish Town to Montego Bay and/or Negril, where they would spend a week with their regular foreign john(s) and bring back massive amounts of ForEx which the Banks <span style="font-style: italic">(who were our chief customers by then)</span>, were grateful to have. Of course we were not the sole ring in this scheme and we just about one of the smallest rings in this game..
These are some of the many intended/unintended consequences of Michael Menlie and his gang war on the people of Jamaica.

So that is my story, which is about the times, not about my personal travails.

[Gen]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

so where can I sign up for some of these &quot;foine non-bang belly looking non black men&quot; a la the mahfoods so one a dem can marry me

[britisha]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Glad you took this up Britisha ..
Some comments in Tuff Gongs' post i was about to respond to ..

but keep it going ..

while there were some incidents in the 70's that had some peple paranoid ..
i never thought it was wholesale and encompassing the majority of Jamaicans ..

but what do i know I was in high school ..
walking from North Street and South Camp Road to downtown King Street to catch my bus
</div></div>

Good point Sinco...it wasn't wholesale.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the contrary, I was disagreeing with you...I said the happenings of the 70's did NOT eradicate the reasons for the mass sufferings etc...in other words, those reasons that existed BEFORE THE 70's, still exist after the incidences you referred to; and in fact there is a direct correlation between them and the largess of slavery...</div></div>

The questions I want to ask are:

what year did the Mahfoods own slaves in Jamaica?
what year did they torch Jamaican Blacks in their home and business?
how could familes that started their businesses in handcart rise to become so rich and powerful and so reviled? Weren't Blacks allowed to sell harberdashery in handcarts then?
why after at least 10 years of better mus come, democratic Socialism and 18 years of Blackman Time Now they are still at the top of the food chain in Jamaica?

[Tropicana]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

The Mahfoods did not own slaves. Here is how the &quot;Syrians&quot; Lebanese came to Jamaica.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unlike their fellow immigrants from China and India who had begun arriving in Jamaica in the mid-19th century, the Lebanese did not land on the island as indentured labourers. They, like the Jews that had come centuries before, arrived by their own free will, albeit fleeing religious persecution.

Most of those that fled were Christians who suffered religious persecution at the hands of the Muslim Turks who controlled most of the area under the Ottoman Empire. At the time, that region of the Middle East contained people from an area known as Mount Lebanon which was then part of Syria hence the common confusion between the terms Syrian and Lebanese and why they tend to be used interchangeably. Having heard of the wonders of the New World, a place where the streets were supposedly paved with gold that was there for the taking provided one worked hard enough, many sought to escape as quickly as possible and build new lives for themselves and their families.

</div></div>

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/pages/history/story0056.htm

Debating this <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">hot, hot, hot</span> </span>with an older relative who was raised in Jamaica on the phone right now. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">We NAW agree at all, at all. She noh see it as discrimination.</span></span> She understands why people would stick together, support one another in business and select mates from their own heritage. She NOW thinks that we as Black JAMAICANS have made a HUGE mistake. We should take a leaf out of the book of some of these other ethnic groups. By that she means that we should stick together, support and patronize each other in business and be much more proactive in terms of encouraging our young people to get to know other Black Jamaicans of marriagable age. Now on THIS we can agree.

Re: torching of homes and business and homes by Black Jamaicans.....yesterday is the first me evah hear 'bout dat so me noh know nutten bout i'. Based on what YOU said, sounds it was in the early 1970s. That would NOT account for these peopel sticking together and not marrying Black Jamaicans for the past 75 to 100+ years now would it.

Just a second mi will ax. She agreed with what britisha and Dr. Dudd said in the other thread.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> How could familes that started their businesses in handcart rise to become so rich and powerful and so reviled? Weren't Blacks allowed to sell harberdashery in handcarts then? </span>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> She seh she noh know. She said that the Syrians came, they had to find a way to make a living. <span style="font-weight: bold">She noh memba no handcart.</span> I remember another older relative saying they started with mules and then eventually moved to handcarts but she noh memba NO handcart. They would ride out into the country on their mules with their little bundles, knock on doors and sell. It was a credit system. They would leave any goods in which they expressed an interest, rather than not get the sale. The next time they came by, they would get paid for the last set of goods they left off and leave something else. They would build up, until they could open a shop, and even in the stores they would follow the same credit system. There were no credit cards or anything like that. She seh she noh know if this is a system they brought from their own country. She seh our tradition coming out of slavery as Black Jamaicans was different (e.g. the higglering) </div></div>

Why after at least 10 years of better mus come, democratic Socialism and 18 years of Blackman Time Now they are still at the top of the food chain in Jamaica?

Let's get this straight, many Black Jamaicans have donre really well at home and abroad...MANY. Not enough but many. The leg up that these people got during the British era gave them a headstart and an advantage that they still have today. I think that what holds us back is we don't stick together, support one another in business AND marriage. We too ready to attack one another. Probably comes out of the divide and rule from slavery days. The British were GOOD at that and it persists today just about any where in the world where they were in power.


<span style="font-weight: bold">More and see part of your answer in blue</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FROM PEDLARS TO STORE OWNERS

Outside of store on West Queen Street in downtown Kingston, owned by George Edward Seaga, grandfather of Opposition Leader Edward Seaga. George Seaga's family came to Jamaica at the turn of the century, c1900.


<span style="font-weight: bold">A potential pedlar would locate an area, ascertain the possibilities,<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #000099"> borrow money from a more established member of the Lebanese/Syrian community</span></span>, purchase a small amount of goods and sell them door to door. As business improved, the pedlar might expand to add first a donkey to his set-up, and then as it expanded further, a horse and buggy and eventually a motor vehicle. Customers appreciated the convenience of being able to shop from home even though they had limited choice (Sherlock and Bennett, 1998, p. 334). Once the pedlar amassed enough funds, he would open what is called a dry goods shop many of which were and still are located in downtown Kingston on Orange, King, West Queen and Harbour streets: Issa's, Joseph's, Shoucair's, Hanna's, Bardowell's and my family's, G.E. Seaga and Sons. </span> </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Many amongst the first wave of immigrants worshipped in the Greek Orthodox Church but found none on arrival in Jamaica and so turned to the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches the first of many adaptations that included the learning of a new language, and intermingling with Jamaican society, whose own cultural modes were being formed as different groups the Chinese, Indians, Africans and Europeans struggled to make the island their home. Some Lebanese immigrants, such as those from the village of Schweifat, did speak English as it had been taught in school their region of the Middle East. This certainly made it easier for them to adjust than other immigrants and assisted their assimilation into Jamaican society. Others, especially those later arrivals that landed between the two World Wars to join family members, spoke French so it took them longer to adjust to both the Queen's English and Jamaican English. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As time passed, many Lebanese/Syrians achieved success in business. They were careful with their money and worked hard. Fewer and fewer returned to Lebanon.<span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-size: 14pt">In fact, many of the second generation Lebanese-Jamaicans did not return to Lebanon to find wives and retain aspects of their culture as had been the custom of some of their parents. World War II interrupted this tradition. Second and third generation Lebanese-Jamaicans therefore became more Jamaicanized.</span></span>

</div></div>

You asked about Singapore and Japan. Don't have time to get into it in detail. Countries like Singapore did not have a tradition of slavery and the mentality and self loathing that comes with it. The Chinese males came in as rickshaw pullers. Many of them became addicted to the drugs they used to control the physical pain from rickshaw pulling and died. Others survived and built up the country. It came to the point that the local Malay population resented the Chinese and their success so much and that is what eventually lead to Singapore becoming independent from what was then Malaya (spelling...noh ave no time fi look it up.) That is a WHOLE other thread. In fact, I did a thread comparing Jamaica with Singapore and another comparing Jamaica with Japan. Need to dig those up form the archives.

[gourmet]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

Tuff Gong, that was a superb post about 1970s Kingston.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gourmet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong, that was a superb post about 1970s Kingston. </div></div>
Thanks you very much. Corruption has a material cost but most Jamaicans here and elsewhere will just ignore it and post some more arguments to prove that the English Slave Masters with the help of the Mahfoods are the ones holding Black Jamaicans back.

[diabolical_Tanya]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gourmet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong, that was a superb post about 1970s Kingston. </div></div>
Thanks you very much. Corruption has a material cost but most Jamaicans here and elsewhere will just ignore it and post some more arguments to prove that the English Slave Masters with the help of the Mahfoods are the ones holding Black Jamaicans back. </div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Mahfoods did not own slaves. Here is how the &quot;Syrians&quot; Lebanese came to Jamaica.</div></div>

They didn't.... I could have sworn they did?
What year did they lead a march on the businesses and properties of the Black Jamaicans?
a. what year did the internecine war among the White Jamaicans start and how long did it last?
b. how many were killed in those struggles?

what year did the Mahfoods seize power in Jamaica and squandered all the gains we made in the 60s when our economy was one of the three fastest growing in the world?

which of the mahfoods has held the South West St. Andrew Constituency for an insanely long time even though sewage runs liberally down the pathways and a number of the ladies have turned to prostitution in New Kingston to replace or complement lost when the garment manufacturers concentrated around that area were forced to shutter their businesses and left the country for friendlier locales?

[Seveen]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

only YOU can free your mind!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

This page reminds me of an old asying.
Youe have been really studying jamaican history. The real history.
I notice that you have also learnt the jamaican strategy of ignoring people as if they are not there well at will.

This is usually lost on people who have not grown up in the Jamaican culurte.
they tend to think that we need technology to ignore others.

If they evern knew....

[neutral]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

Interesting read,...wonder how long it will take before the mahfoods buy out and &quot;sellout&quot; jamaica...lol !

[Ja. Jewel]

Re: The Mahfoods: continuing a rich family tradition

[quote=Seveen]only YOU can free your mind! [/quote