jamaica paradise island?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Show proof that anybody give 15 times convicted prisoner gun which directly led to the State of emergency? </div></div>Actually I don't have to since I am using it to counter arguments that are itinually posted without any proof.

But since you went down that road.
There was a Commission called the Smith Commission, it came about because of the Rema evictions, it later branched off to the Green Bay killings and the State of Emergency.

Michael Menlie out of an abundance of confidence or lack of caution decided to be deponed at the Commission.
There he admitted that Spy Robinson a man with a long conviction record was indeed armed with firearm at a Cabinet Meeting where he Michael Menlie was present. The only wrinkle was that at the time Spy Robinson was issued with the firearm he had got up and went to use the bathroom.

No mention whether or not the other members of the Cabinet also joined in him the bathroom. Spy Robinson later took the gun to a meeting of with Eddie Blinds. Menlie fearing that he was going to be outted called a State of Emergency.

[uswe]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Show proof that anybody give 15 times convicted prisoner gun which directly led to the State of emergency? </div></div>Actually I don't have to since I am using it to counter arguments that are itinually posted without any proof.

But since you went down that road.
There was a Commission called the Smith Commission, it came about because of the Rema evictions, it later branched off to the Green Bay killings and the State of Emergency.

Michael Menlie out of an abundance of confidence or lack of caution decided to be deponed at the Commission.
There he admitted that Spy Robinson a man with a long conviction record was indeed armed with firearm at a Cabinet Meeting where he Michael Menlie was present. The only wrinkle was that at the time Spy Robinson was issued with the firearm he had got up and went to use the bathroom.

No mention whether or not the other members of the Cabinet also joined in him the bathroom. Spy Robinson later took the gun to a meeting of with Eddie Blinds. Menlie fearing that he was going to be outted called a State of Emergency. </div></div>

Must gave been instigated by the imperial colonialists, Jamaicans would never do such things of their own volition!

[neutral]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No mention whether or not the other members of the Cabinet also joined in him the bathroom. </div></div>

LOL !

[Tuff Gong]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No mention whether or not the other members of the Cabinet also joined in him the bathroom. </div></div>

LOL !

</div></div>must have been a big Unisex bathroom!

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Britisha, do you mean that there are &quot;higher forces&quot; at work who are deliberately hindering Jamaica's progress?

Or that elements of the Jamaican upper classes have an &quot;Imperialist&quot; mentality? </div></div>

What I believe is unimportant to the discussion Uswe...it just follows logically that we live in a globally economy, and all WEAK economies are affected directly/indirectly by the stronger ones who really &quot;call the shots&quot;...for starters, see the documentary &quot;Life and Debt..&quot;

Read up on the CIA's involvement in destabilizing countries...and as history will show, &quot;Mother England&quot; never wanted any of it's colonies to achieve &quot;self-government&quot; Check what happened to our recent sugar prices, among other things..last but not least, check the status of all so-called Commonwealth nations, .compare and contrast them....this will take some time, prolly even a year to find the info and place it in proper context...for whre Jamaica is concerned, we would be going back over 40 years...

walk good.

</div></div>

What you believe is important to the discussion, as this is a polemical issue. I've seen life and debt documentary, some have argued that it was the policies of the Michael Manley lead PNP government that resulted in Jamaica having to go cap in hand to the IMF and having to adhere to its structural adjustment programmes. From which Jamaica has never really recovered.

Former CIA operative, the late Phillip Agee was on record as saying that the CIA actively participated in destabilising Jamaica. Although this hasn't been proven conclusively, though it wouldn't surprise me one bit though given this was the height of the cold war, Jamaica being in America's back yard and their &quot;reds under the bed&quot; paranoia. There was even a rumour that the US planned to invade Jamaica if Manley had won the the 1980 election.

That said, who is ultimately responsible for the countries current state? the former colonialists, or the politicians? I tend to lean towards the latter. </div></div>

&quot;fine !!&quot;

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica had no real foundation to speak of economic or otherwise, we were still beholden to &quot;great britain&quot;, </div></div>absolute nonsense! </div></div>

Response #2 to Tuff Gong..


....and you are entitled to your opine-ion

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results...Re-read your old posts, YOU will find YOUR proof therein. I refuse to join you in beating the dead horse. He is dead. </div></div>Wait you have totally got it wrong. I did not introduce or re-introduce these arguments I merely asked the same questions I have always asked when these lame, idiotic notions are proffered with not one shred of supporting evidence. Where is the proof?

Are you saying I am insane for asking for proof?
</div></div>

Who said anything that you reintroduce these &quot;same arguments?&quot; Who? Where?


What is good about this 'ere your post, is the fact that you acknowledge that you &quot;ask the SAME QUESTIONS&quot;...REPEATEDLY ad infinitum...asking for proof...

The same old argument that trails from thread to thread...even when others in other threads tried to explain why they have certain opinions, you are still asking for &quot;proof.&quot;

The quote about insanity is very clear, the answer lies in the statement...Since you are so wise Tuff Gong and others are so wrong, don't diminish your intellectual superiority by asking rhetorical non-nonsensical questions of &quot;lame idiotic posters&quot;...for if you do, the joke will be on you.

...and I REPEAT &quot;Re-read your old posts,&quot; strangely enough, you will find the proof you seek right there...

[gourmet]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20050221/lead/lead7.html

One-on-one with Bruce - Life in the socialist seventies
published: Monday | February 21, 2005
Laura Tanna, Contributor
The following is a continuation of an interview with Bruce Golding, chairman of the Jamaica Labour Party. The first part was carried in yesterday's Sunday Gleaner.
GOLDING SAYS: &quot;It was entrapment, intended to create the justification for a State of Emergency that would enable them to lock up the opposition. We had a retreat planned for Montego Bay, at the Holiday Inn, by which time we were aware of Spy Robinson's role - the fact that he had been given a gun.

The fact that this was something decided at Jamaica House, at a meeting at which Mr. Manley was intermittently present, and I say that because at the point where he was to be given the gun, Mr. Manley found it necessary to go to the bathroom.

SCHEDULED PRESS CONFERENCE

&quot;When we had assembled much of the information, we decided this was a matter that had to be made public. We scheduled a press conference to be held in Montego Bay, to indicate that serious corruption was being perpetrated. The government realised what we were going to do and while we were at the retreat, Mr. Seaga got a letter from Manley to say that he had declared a State of Emergency mid-day, that day. Within an hour, there were police surrounding the hotel.

&quot;They started locking us up one by one. They took a number of people. When they took Ray Miles into Up Park Camp, he called the British high commissioner and said: &quot;I'm a British citizen and I've been locked up.&quot; The British Government got hold of the authorities and asked what the hell they thought they were doing? He was released within 24 hours. But people like Pat Stevens, 'Babsy' Grange and Pearnel Charles, Jamaican citizens, they had to spend a year in detention. It still remains the most corrupt use of power that we have seen in Jamaica since slavery was abolished!&quot;

As D.K. Duncan was minister of mobilisation at the time, was he not one of the people who designed this State of Emergency and if so, how could Duncan subsequently be used in the NDM campaign?

CORRUPT USE OF POWER

Golding replied: &quot;Yes, he was. But to his credit, he's one of the very few persons involved in the PNP at that time who subsequently acknowledged that it was wrong; that it was a corrupt use of power. Mr. Patterson has not, to this day, even acknowledged that there were abuses committed by that State of Emergency, let alone to acknowledge the corruption of which he was a part, because he was a part of it. And it was the most blatant display of the corrupt use of power that this country has ever seen. Part of the problem is that we don't write history anymore. This thing happened almost 30 years ago, and there is so little documentation about it for people to read. It was intended to cripple the JLP campaign, and it did significant damage. It's not easy to run a campaign when so many of your significant functionaries are locked up. And you are operating under the fear that any day now you can be locked up.

&quot;For example, Frank Phipps was running for us as a candidate in North East Westmoreland. Now a more harmless person than Karram Josephs I can't think of. Had a bit of a temper, but a gentleman. Karram Phipps' campaign manager -- was locked up seven o'clock on election day because he was considered to be a threat to national security, and released at six o'clock that evening after the polls had closed, because by that time he was no longer a threat to national security!

&quot;Under the law, you can only be detained under an order signed by the minister. One assumes that before the minister signs the order, the minister satisfies himself that there is good reason why you ought to be detained. What ... the minister did was that if he was going on the campaign trail and wasn't going to be around, he would just sign a whole heap of blank detention orders for the police and military to fill in whatever names they wished. And that was established in the enquiry. I mean, corruption! That's what it was.&quot;

The Golding family has been affected in a more private way by the consequences of corruption and violence, influencing Golding's views. Daughter Shereen is married to Andrew Ogilvie, son of a leading civil servant murdered in 1978.

POLITICAL PRESSURE

Says Golding: &quot;Ted Ogilvie was the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Construction, during PNP times. Ted Ogilvie was a professional civil servant and a lot of corruption was taking place on the McGregor Gully project. He did an internal investigation to find out that cheques were just being drawn without any certification and he put a stop to it. He virtually froze the project. A lot of political pressure was brought to bear on him and he remained resolute. He ordered that the whole project be audited. He wasn't prepared to authorise one more payment until that audit was completed.

&quot;There were two well-known PNP (activists), Tony Brown and George Flash, who were involved in the project. They apparently went to the ministry and made all sorts of (declarations) about what would happen if they didn't get their payments. Ted Ogilvie remained resolute. He protected his officers because ... he said: 'Let them know you no longer have anything to do with the matter. If they have any questions, I'm the only person who can answer.'

&quot;He went home for lunch as he normally did almost every day, had lunch and was going back to his car. Got to his gate with his little five-year-old son with him. Had just kissed Andrew goodbye and as he turned around to go to the car, men pounced on him and shot him dead.

The police started investigations. Those were stymied and when public pressure was brought, they eventually established that there was a basis for charging George Flash and Tony Brown, but by that time they had been whisked off to Cuba.

STAYED IN CUBA

And there is evidence that they were assisted in doing so through official diplomatic channels. Dudley Thompson was then the minister of foreign affairs. They stayed in Cuba for years. They remained off the island and it wasn't until the PNP came back to power in 1989 that they came back to Jamaica.

&quot;We started putting public pressure again on the fact that they were back in Jamaica and there were warrants out for their arrest. Eventually they were arrested and charged for murder. The matter came up a couple of times, just for mention, and the normal court drag-out until eventually it was discovered that the file was missing. They could find no trace of the file, no trace of the statements that were on the files. The case collapsed and they were acquitted.&quot;

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I believe is unimportant to the discussion Uswe...it just follows logically that we live in a globally economy, and all WEAK economies are affected directly/indirectly by the stronger ones who really &quot;call the shots&quot;...for starters, see the documentary &quot;Life and Debt..&quot;</div></div>

You mean Lies and Debts don't you. The documentary Lies and Debts was brilliant in that it attempted to make a case against the IMF using the very same actors that put us in the pickle in the first place, it ignored the main actors admissions that he was the one who went to IMF.

It never sought to find out why the country fell into debts, so deep that it needed a Prime Minister to go cap in hand all over the world to beg money.

It never asked about the lootings, burning, internal destabilization the said Prime Minister of Jamaica encouraged.
It sought to paint the factory owners in the Free Zone as oppressive but never asked what the role of Government.
What would happen to those workers when the Free Zone left? </div></div>

this is so funny...response #3

The name of the documentary is &quot;Life and Debt&quot;..,I find it so funny that you would barefacedly claim that &quot;they attempted to make a case against the IMF&quot; Are you serious? Are you for real? **chukkle** What is the IMF that it is not worth making a case against it...and please don't throw this thread off on any more tangents by rushing to lecture me on the IMF eidah..

Here you are trying to rewrite the documentary &quot;a la Tuff Gong&quot;...Why don't you re-do it and interview even dead Michael Manley...the truth and proof that you so earnestly seek might come out then...why should it &quot;talk&quot;...I'm sure you mean address...the looting and shootings and all the other issues that you choose to prioritise?... asking...Why? BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT THE THEME OF THE DOCUMENTARY....

Coming from you, this is very disappointing...and that is all I will say for this is too funny.

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those other islands like Cayman are inhabited by many of Jamaican descent...but they were smart, they never asked for Independence...moreover, they are now in the big boy's league...hiding money from thieves and crooks, and as you know <span style="font-weight: bold">money talks and b-s walks</span>..the loot has to be protected...now Obama is pushing for no more secret accounts where thieves like Madoff can hide the loot..

Barbados never really shook off the British culture...diss is why dem still refer to Bajans as the British of the Caribbean...they were never forceful and uppity as Jamaicans..even to this day, yuh can tell a Bajan in a group of West Indians...dat wurd </div></div>

So this the simple reason why they are doing better than us? Why their Governments are not corrupt?
Why they did not try to sterilize their country running a certain class of people out?
Why their security forces are not as corrupt and abusive as ours? </div></div>

Response #4

More rhetorical questions Tuff Gong? LOL...&quot;why their security forces are not as corrupt and abusive as ours?&quot;


yuh good, good no....I must give it to you...

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but here it comes?

If we had such a strong foundation, why is the country in the economic and SOCIAL bind that it is today?

Our friend Mr. Thompson hinted at &quot;Imperialism&quot; just as Castro has been saying...maybe they are on to something that *I* don't know about.. </div></div>LOL so even when you don't know what they are hinting at you rather accept the words of the ones who armed Jamaicans against Jamaicans and failed to build on what you are admitting was a strong foundation? </div></div>

response #5..

You should be astute enough to discern satire....and understand what you read..Point out to the board where I am admitting that there &quot;was a strong foundation&quot;...Prove it Tuff Gong,<span style="font-weight: bold"> PROVE IT !!</span> Show it to the board...a think yuh engine running out of steam...yuh not following the argument too tuff.

As you so love to remark...&quot;don't put words in * my* mouth..SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do agree with you,some people,especially foreigners,..are most definitely not qualified to speak on jamaica`s behalf, <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-style: italic">they visit for a few days,get some local personality to drive them down a couple streets,and talk to locals from the safety of their car, and then act as if they are qualified to speak</span> </span>with some authority on what they perceive to be jamaica`s problems,..I have no time for people like this,...but every now and again you get an a-hole like this that refreshes the page on the discussion surrounding jamaica`s post independence blues. </div></div>

I get it already foreigners are not qualified to speak on Jamaicans problems. I do hope Jamaicans who have run away from the Rock, especially the ones who have taken foreign citizenship get the message....ST#U </div></div>

If you are not making this statement from terra firma Jamaica, then you should look in the mirror..!!

[britisha]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for starters, see the documentary &quot;Life and Debt..&quot; </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">So a foreigner making Lies and Debts = Good</span>
But any other foreigners writing about problems in Jamaica circa 2009 is not good uh?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">...and we are in no hurry to have you back either...</span> :::..afterall noh yuh forefathers shegged us up and left us in the pickle?

Mi had a hard time wid dis, cuddn't google anything wid this man's name...pure red flag waawning a go up on my computah...annihow...


The piece contains many truths, but at the same time it is a slap in the face of all Jamaicans as far as I can see it....


Here comes this man to tell us what we already know, I just love when foreigners do that..under the guise of &quot;looking out for the darkies&quot;??...</div></div> </div></div>

Response #6

Hey Bro...you had a field day today seeking out my posts to lambaste, no chroo?

That's what can happen when ppl have time on their hands...I envy you...

Liss'n noh?

If you want to believe that a documentary called &quot;Life and Debt&quot; is <span style="font-weight: bold">good</span> 'teva &quot;good&quot; means in your parlance; more power to yuh...and if yuh want to think that <span style="font-weight: bold">any other foreigners writing about problems in Jamaica circa 2009 is not good...</span> even more power to you...agen, do NOT put words into my mouth...speak for yourself...for obviously these are your views...you can state them, no sweat... instead of using a rather cunning backhanded way to go about it..

You have missed the point again, and you have almost succeeded in turning this foo foo thread into one dominated by your nonsensical loquacity..

I detected a piece of YELLOW JOURNALISM and I exercised *MY* prerogative in critiquing it, and showed reasons why I found it offensive...but you came in here asking for evidence and proof of occurrences of bygone days...things that really don't relate to the piece

I have yet to see you comment on the offensive piece...but why should you? It satisfies your need to come in here and strut and preen and put down other posters who don't share your views..


I made if emphatically clear,<span style="font-weight: bold"> that some of what was written is TRUE...</span> and in the same breath, questioned it's authenticity...

What you should be asking is, why isn't Jamaica a paradise for <span style="font-weight: bold">black marginalized grassroots Jamaicans?</span> What you should be asking is, why are some Jamaicans treated like <span style="font-weight: bold">strangers in an unknown land</span> in their ownah country whey dem baawn and grow and their forefathers bled and died?


What you should be asking is, <span style="font-weight: bold">why is it that many Jamaicans are regarded as persona non Grata in their own country.. never being able to access the beauty of the &quot;Paradise,&quot; the hotels and white sand beaches and swim in the pristine waters?</span> Why aren't you asking why is it that there are parts/areas that they cannot go in their own country, but foreigners can and are welcomed with open arms?

why?


Then you have the audacity to tell ME britisha that we were left with a solid foundation? You must be joking...Jamaica is still reeling from the &quot;legacy of slavery&quot;...as I mentioned ovah soh...it is like a curse...

In keeping with the theme of the offensive piece of journalism, this is what you should be addressing as a &quot;conscious brother&quot;...

Why haven't you mentioned that hadn't it been for Michael Manley, many LOCAL Jamaicans would never know what it is like to spend a day or two in the hotels in their own country and rub shoulders with tourists of all persuasions?


Why not?

I think you found the part about <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Jamaica being founded on violence very thrilling..</span> Your postings most times state that Jamaica was always a violent country...be that as it may...if and when you do so agen, remember not to omit <span style="font-weight: bold">The Buccaneers and the pimps, hustlers, pirates and prostitutes who gave Port Royal the name, the City of Blood</span>...&quot; Very Important..that you keep the history clear and correct...


You are still <span style="font-weight: bold">defending</span> Great Britain with pomp and pomposity....gwaan chru...

Mi cyaan respond to anniting else yuh seh aawn yah...for guess wha? You are as obstinate in your opinions as <span style="font-weight: bold">I am in mine</span>...and notting naah go change what I have said, however much they are not in keeping with your opinions...I stand by my WORD..

Mek mi stap yahsoh yaah... wha gaawn bad a maawning...


Walk good.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is good about this 'ere your post, is the fact that you acknowledge that you &quot;ask the SAME QUESTIONS&quot;...REPEATEDLY ad infinitum...asking for proof...</div></div>Of course if the same dishonest arguments are being made, with the same words and inflections used, why should I change the questions?
I will continue and see if I can wangle some answers.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: jamaica paradise island?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who said anything that you reintroduce these &quot;same arguments?&quot; Who? Where?</div></div>No I said that I never said you did.
The same old arguments and reintroduced over and over again. So I continue to ask for proof!