r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

[britisha]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tek for example that paawty that was in power for over 10 years when we saw the escalation of crime, and the economic downturn we experienced...they are still in power although voted out. Jamaica is one country whre it appears that the Opposition does nothing but talk talk talk talk.... </div></div>How do you get from there to here?
If we are talking about Jamaica. There was virtually zero Opposition in the last 19 years. The JLP spent most of those years arguing amongst itself. When they rose to speak they said little and was shouted down a lot.

There is not one criticism on the Government of the PNP between 1989 and 2008 made by the Opposition JLP that anyone can point me to that was not justified. </div></div>

What is your point?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is your point? </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is one country whre it appears that the Opposition does nothing but talk talk talk talk.... </div></div>
Same question here?

[britisha]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is your point? </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica is one country whre it appears that the Opposition does nothing but talk talk talk talk.... </div></div>
Same question here? </div></div>

That was a statement [that] I made, not a question..

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That was a statement [that] I made, not a question.. </div></div>I know I am <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">questioning</span> the statement!

[barosa]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

Yuh know Barosa, sometimes it takes a while for one to finally see a part/piece that belongs in the jigsaw puzzle...
<span style="font-style: italic">That I Can understand, it's obvious for all to see.</span>

Over the years, *we* have al been blaming our politicians that they diss and they dat; never really considering *who* votes them into &quot;power&quot;...the voting public of course.
<span style="font-style: italic">Yes we the voting public do but most do so with the thought that &quot;a fi wi time comming up next&quot; a strictly economical decision by followers of both camps.</span>

The rhetorical kwestian becomes, &quot;if dem noh good, why do YOU vote them back into power?&quot; Isn't time we take responsibility for voting these &quot;misfits&quot; to lead the country, or is it that no other misfit wishes to take up the challenge?
<span style="font-style: italic">It's more than likely that no other misfit would step forward to take up the challenge for fear that both camps would join forces to crush them.</span>

Tek for example that paawty that was in power for over 10 years when we saw the escalation of crime, and the economic downturn we experienced...they are still in power although voted out. Jamaica is one country whre it appears that the Opposition does nothing but talk talk talk talk....

<span style="font-weight: bold">Time for a change from these 2 parties ...if we really want to be patriotic..</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">It would take a very brave soul even with some grass root support to step forward to challenge the status quo of the &quot;twin&quot; parties. As we know, they are contented to run Jamaica into the ground while sharing the spoils only between themselves... ~ The imbedded system can only be gotten rid of, by popular upheaval and uprising that would be violent and lead to dictatorship to re-vamp the system. That's not likely to happen because &quot;Uncle&quot; would intervene to keep the status quo...</span>
____________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where you are heading...

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">It would take a very brave soul even with some grass root support to step forward to challenge the status quo of the &quot;twin&quot; parties. As we know, they are contented to run Jamaica into the ground while sharing the spoils only between themselves... ~ The imbedded system can only be gotten rid of, by popular upheaval and uprising that would be violent and lead to dictatorship to re-vamp the system. That's not likely to happen because &quot;Uncle&quot; would intervene to keep the status quo...</span></div></div>Are you really serious?
A violent upheaval is necessary!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

It is interesting when politicians such a Norman Manley are held up as a good model to follow. This is the same Leader to started exiling Jamaicans and taking away the passports of Jamaicans. He was also the architect of Socialism in Jamaica, even though he did not put it in place.

[barosa]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">It would take a very brave soul even with some grass root support to step forward to challenge the status quo of the &quot;twin&quot; parties. As we know, they are contented to run Jamaica into the ground while sharing the spoils only between themselves... ~ The imbedded system can only be gotten rid of, by popular upheaval and uprising that would be violent and lead to dictatorship to re-vamp the system. That's not likely to happen because &quot;Uncle&quot; would intervene to keep the status quo...</span></div></div>Are you really serious?
A violent upheaval is necessary! </div></div>
Tuffy, where in the modern history of mankind can you find an instance where an <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;inbedded system&quot;</span> was changed quietly and peacefully without some violence? ~ You may want to say South Africa but that was not the case. Time had ran out for the Apartheid regime. Btw, I'm not advocating that as a solution for a change in Jamaica. We may be able to devise a non-violent way of bringing about the change desired but I wouldn't bet on it...
_________________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where you are heading...

[barosa]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is interesting when politicians such a Norman Manley are held up as a good model to follow. This is the same Leader to started exiling Jamaicans and taking away the passports of Jamaicans. He was also the architect of Socialism in Jamaica, even though he did not put it in place. </div></div>
Tuffy, you may be too young to know the real history behind Norman's Manley brush with Socialism. When the British Labour Party was &quot;born&quot; Norman was a student in Britain. He rubbed shoulders with the likes of Sir Stafford Cripps, Aneurin Bevan and the Younger Michael Wilson. These men were some of the pioneers who built the Labour Party and Norman was influenced by them when he founded the PNP in the 1930's. That is where the &quot;Socialism&quot; came from and like Britain, did no harm to us although Uncle didn't like it...

Look at the Labour Party today! and what do we find? a political party that is mature, far from doctrinaire &quot;socialism&quot; that embraces the Free market priciples of Capitalism that one wonders, Where did their &quot;socialism&quot; disappeared to? So the label of socialism is not always dirty word as the Americans would have us believe. Geo Bush got his greatest support from this so-called socialist, so much so that he has been ridiculed for it.

Norman was in the tradition of the British Labour Party. In his time he was called <span style="font-weight: bold">The FATHER of The Nation</span> and had he lived to become PM in an Independent Jamaica, our nation would be a far different place and we wouldn't be having this discussion today... The PNP was hijacked by extreme radical elements within the party which Michael could not control and set us on the path we are now on...
__________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where tou are heading...

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuffy, where in the modern history of mankind can you find an instance where an <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;inbedded system&quot;</span> was changed quietly and peacefully without some violence?</div></div>

I am not going to search too far but I can say for sure Singapore.
But that is not what I looking at. In my opinion there is nothing to suggest that Jamaicans are going to, or even need to rise up and violently overthrow anything, especially when the society is so polarized that it would be impossible to get two Jamaicans to agree on any one thing to rise up against and something to replace it with.

I think most violence directed towards politics, politicians and especially towards a government not formed by the PNP has gone out of the Jamaican society.
I think the Jamaican folks have seen the destruction wrought by the last Administration and have no intention of returning the PNP to Power in this century. Not that they love the JLP but they are wedded to the two Party System and if it not one it is the other.

I think the time is ripe for a 3rd option but not in manner of the 3rd Parties have come to mean in Jamaica. I think a 3rd Party will succeed and be an outlet for the protest votes if it concentrates its efforts on a small plate of issues while targeting vulnerable seats at the local, regional and national level.

[barosa]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<span style="font-weight: bold">I think the time is ripe for a 3rd option but not in manner of the 3rd Parties have come to mean in Jamaica. I think a 3rd Party will succeed and be an outlet for the protest votes if it concentrates its efforts on a small plate of issues while targeting vulnerable seats at the local, regional and national level.</span>

Tuffy, this is what Britisha was asking about, she used the term &quot;misfits&quot; taking the place of other misfits but that wouldn't apply in your case. ~ In the interest of &quot;patriotism&quot; would you volunteer your time along with others to the cause of bringing about a 3rd option that would be amenable to most Jamaicans? Several years ago, I advocated a third party option, but one that would start as a &quot;Movement&quot; with grass roots location all over the island educating the people long before it becomes a &quot;Party...

The biggest problem would be finding the right leader for &quot;that&quot; job. If others who are like minded and feel patriotic, this would be an opportunity to serve the mother land... They should Think about it!
______________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where you are heading...

[Blackstar*]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

To answer the question the the topic title: When citizens don't insist on getting the best for their country and fellow citizens, that is a lack of patriotism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Over the years, *we* have al been blaming our politicians that they diss and they dat; never really considering *who* votes them into &quot;power&quot;...the voting public of course.</div></div>
And of course it's not enough to vote; the voting public must hold their elected officials accountable.

[evanovitch]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is interesting when politicians such a Norman Manley are held up as a good model to follow. This is the same Leader to started exiling Jamaicans and taking away the passports of Jamaicans. <span style="font-style: italic">He was also <span style="font-weight: bold">the architect </span>of Socialism in Jamaica, </span>even though he did not put it in place. </div></div>

...he, shall we say, appreciated SOME socialist ideals BUT the 3 H's were the architects in the sense of pushing thru the socialist agenda of the fledgling PNP....came to a bump wen they were expelled for being toooooooooo left....di story is close to moi , shall we say

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tuffy, you may be too young to know the real history behind Norman's Manley brush with Socialism. </div></div>Let's talk about Socialism in Jamaica. The Socialism he outlined and was acted upon by his son failed in Jamaica miserably. This is not meant as a personal knock on you but it mattered not who he rubbed shoulders with, his ideas as executed by his Party failed in Jamaica. I have rubbed shoulders with some of the greatest Jamaican Musicians and I can't even play a cheese pan.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: r most Jcans patriotic?.how is said patriotism defined?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...he, shall we say, appreciated SOME socialist ideals BUT the 3 H's were the architects in the sense of pushing thru the socialist agenda of the fledgling PNP....came to a bump wen they were expelled for being toooooooooo left....di story is close to moi , shall we say </div></div>He also exiled them and took away their passports, then proposed a watered down version of so-called Democratic Socialism that failed when executed by his sons, maybe he should have kept it close to the Hart!