Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

**britisha** · 07-06-2009, 02:46 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Plus if one follows the simple rules of what sound each letter makes then there shouldn't be confusion... I'm sorry I still don't see how "de" and "di" would be pronounced the same... maybe it's my romance language background. </div></div>

It is easy for you and me and others IronMan, but for a "farrina" who is being introduced to this for the first time, not quite as easy...they simply have to substitute the pronunciation of the word "we" if they see the Jamaican Creyol word "de" and confusion could emerge. No?

In "we" the accent [symbol], would be a long "eee" ..while in "de" you are saying it would be a "short" 'i'...IMHO they need to clarify this.

**mountaingal** · 07-06-2009, 06:18 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

they're off base on the double vowels. i wonder how much user testing of the orthography they did before codifying it.

**julie*mango** · 07-06-2009, 09:32 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

I concur.

**RcOmK** · 07-07-2009, 01:48 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

They make sense to me, but go figure.

**rudemonk** · 07-07-2009, 03:56 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

no 'h'?

just jumping in here, but...here is a funny story about h in patois.

a bredren of mine once told me I should get some 'hair' conditioning. It came out of the blue one day as we sat in my apt. He must have seen how I was looking at him, so he went to say so that I would be more comfortable during the day, and he knew one next bredren who could hook it up. Since I keep a shaved head, I really had no idea what the F was he referring to or what he was talking about...I chalked it up to him just cutting cards, and so for the life of me I could not understand why he was going on about hair conditioning or why we would need to go see his friend about it if I wanted to get it.

It wasn't until we went to buy some eggs for breakfast one morning, and he asked the girl for where she had the cracked <span style="font-style: italic">heggs,</span> telling me we would save some money, that it clicked...never mind the fact I was perfectly fine without AC lmao, I grew up without it and we don't have it in the temple either for that matter lol...

I am curious though, since some words are obvious in their origin, and when they come into a language, they usually retain their origin spelling do they not...? Like the French/Norman words that worked into English...I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out, as there seems to be some convergence and sort of, a general figuring out I guess you could say, practically speaking mind you, already done...?

**britisha** · 07-07-2009, 08:00 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<span style="font-weight: bold">here is a funny story about h in patois.</span>

??.and the point is???

nat funnie.

**mountaingal** · 07-07-2009, 09:44 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out</div></div>

i agree. coming at patwa from an English background, some of the patwa spellings seem really counterintuitive. "fainali" i keep wanting to pronounce as "fay-nali", and "raitin" as "ray-tin".

but then, would "finali" be better? i might be tempted to say "FIN-ali".or should it just be "finally", as u say, imported directly from the English?

also, the internet has had a strong influence on written language, English and French, as far as i can see - haven't noticed the influence on Spanish - and even patwa. i wonder how out of date the new patwa orthography already is because it may not reflect internet and text derived evolutions in spelling.

anyway, i know this writing system for patwa has been a long time in the making, and i'm glad it has reached this important point. although, IronMan, u say it's done - in language, nottn no eva done enuh...

**kingy** · 07-07-2009, 10:22 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

gyal deh fat ehhh man.

**RcOmK** · 07-07-2009, 05:03 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> although, IronMan, u say it's done - in language, nottn no eva done enuh...
</div></div>

No offense, but I know about language, and it seems that you misunderstood me.

The <span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">WRITING SYSTEM</span></span></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS</span> done. That's what the JLU (Jamaican Language Unit) said in their unveiling on the "UWI tv" website. It's even in workbooks and videos that the University of the West Indies produced. So in that sense, yes, the writing system, created by Jamaican-born linguist Frederick Cassidy and continued by the Linguistics department of UWI, <span style="color: #006600">IS</span> done. I NEVER said the LANGUAGE was done evolving and when this happens I'm sure the appropriate additions will be made to the writing system.

by the way, I believe the writing system is GREAT; the spelling, the vowels, double vowels, etc. I feel like if i saw "ray-tin" i would pronounce it as Ray (as in a RAY of light). Plus, the whole thing with wanting to replace 'I' with 'Y' is unnecessary... This is why i believe the writing system is great because if you just pronounce each letter, then there shouldn't be any problem in recognizing the word.

<span style="color: #006600">Ex: Finally = Fai-na-li</span> <span style="font-style: italic">How is that difficult or confusing?</span>

also, writing "fainali" as just "finally" defeats the whole purpose... the point of writing "fainali" is to show that Jamaican Creole is NOT English even if part of it is from English origin.

for example in <span style="color: #660000">Haitian Kreyol</span> <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">"AVEK"</span></span> means <span style="color: #660000">"with"</span> and in <span style="color: #000099">French</span> <span style="color: #000099"><span style="text-decoration: underline">"AVEC"</span></span> means <span style="color: #000099">"with"</span>,
when you look at <span style="color: #660000">"AVEK"</span> you can clearly see that it came from the French <span style="color: #000099">"AVEC"</span> but the Haitian spelling shows that regardless of it being partly of French origin, they are still separate languages,

and there are many more examples like that...

**britisha** · 07-07-2009, 05:33 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

IronMan...I think the problem lies in the fact that we are all using the same alphabet; and not to be redundant, as you and others have so clearly pointed out...all this is borrowed from the Romance Languages.

Now it would be nicer if we could come up with a new alphabet and pronunciation.

**mountaingal** · 07-07-2009, 05:40 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No offense, but I know about language, and it seems that you misunderstood me.
<span style="color: #990000">MG: No offense taken. I know about language too.</span>

The <span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">WRITING SYSTEM</span></span></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS</span> done. That's what the JLU (Jamaican Language Unit) said in their unveiling on the "UWI tv" website. It's even in workbooks and videos that the University of the West Indies produced. So in that sense, yes, the writing system, created by Jamaican-born linguist Frederick Cassidy and continued by the Linguistics department of UWI, <span style="color: #006600">IS</span> done.

I NEVER said the LANGUAGE was done evolving and when this happens I'm sure the appropriate additions will be made to the writing system.
<span style="color: #990000">MG: a bit of an artificial separation - the writing system from the language. how u write/spell a word is not static, and changes in spelling are part of the evolution of language,no?</span>

by the way, I believe the writing system is GREAT; the spelling, the vowels, double vowels, etc. I feel like if i saw "ray-tin" i would pronounce it as Ray (as in a RAY of light). Plus, the whole thing with wanting to replace 'I' with 'Y' is unnecessary... This is why i believe the writing system is great because if you just pronounce each letter, then there shouldn't be any problem in recognizing the word.

<span style="color: #006600">Ex: Finally = Fai-na-li</span> <span style="font-style: italic">How is that difficult or confusing?</span>
<span style="color: #990000">MG: it's difficult/confusing if ur learning patwa from an english background. i think i said that in my original comments, in response to monk's similar point. some patwa spellings make a word unrecognizable. monk's point was that when english was being developed/codified, certain words that were being carried over from another language came with the original spelling. the patwa writing system probably would be easier to teach to a child who has no knowledge of english spelling.</span>

also, writing "fainali" as just "finally" defeats the whole purpose... the point of writing "fainali" is to show that Jamaican Creole is NOT English even if part of it is from English origin.

for example in <span style="color: #660000">Haitian Kreyol</span> <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">"AVEK"</span></span> means <span style="color: #660000">"with"</span> and in <span style="color: #000099">French</span> <span style="color: #000099"><span style="text-decoration: underline">"AVEC"</span></span> means <span style="color: #000099">"with"</span>,
when you look at <span style="color: #660000">"AVEK"</span> you can clearly see that it came from the French <span style="color: #000099">"AVEC"</span> but the Haitian spelling shows that regardless of it being partly of French origin, they are still separate languages,

and there are many more examples like that...

<span style="color: #990000">MG: politics. valid to some degree i guess. but i find it an unnecessary complication. </span></div></div>

**julie*mango** · 07-07-2009, 06:22 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out</div></div>

i agree. coming at patwa from an English background, some of the patwa spellings seem really counterintuitive. "fainali" i keep wanting to pronounce as "fay-nali", and "raitin" as "ray-tin".

but then, would "finali" be better? i might be tempted to say "FIN-ali".or should it just be "finally", as u say, imported directly from the English?

also, the internet has had a strong influence on written language, English and French, as far as i can see - haven't noticed the influence on Spanish - and even patwa. i wonder how out of date the new patwa orthography already is because it may not reflect internet and text derived evolutions in spelling.

anyway, i know this writing system for patwa has been a long time in the making, and i'm glad it has reached this important point. although, IronMan, u say it's done - in language, nottn no eva done enuh...
</div></div>

MG we agree once again...going back to what I said pages ago that Jamaican patois is evolving and ever changing hence this is something that still needs to be researched IMO...

**julie*mango** · 07-07-2009, 06:26 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no 'h'?

just jumping in here, but...here is a funny story about h in patois.

a bredren of mine once told me I should get some 'hair' conditioning. </div></div>

**britisha** · 07-07-2009, 06:29 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B_P</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am just an outsider who is not J'can, has no J'can roots, and isn't even been to JA but finds the culture fascinating with its contradictions, its arts, and its women. Regardless, I do think that the boundary between what can be considered a language and what cannot be considered a language is up to interpretation and a weak consensus, at best, is probably the most anyone could ever expect on this issue. Creole (hybrid) languages are amalgams incorporating grammar and vocabulary from more than one source. Taken to the extreme, even the Queen's English is a creole language as it incorporates elements of Old French, germanic languages, and loan words from places as diverse as Greece, Japan, and Nigeria. If proper English is classified as a language then Patois must be a language as well despite it's close ties with proper English.

Regarding the issue of whether it should be taught in schools as part of a formalized curriculum? I am not so sure. The essentials of living in an increasingly technologically savvy world must take precedence. Mathematics, proper English, the sciences, computer skills, health, financial responsibility, and civics must be addressed first. However, if the teaching of patois may be offered as an elective once the core educational requirements are met then I see nothing wrong with this. </div></div>

Mi did figget, well said mi youte.

**RcOmK** · 07-07-2009, 07:04 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out</div></div>

i agree. coming at patwa from an English background, some of the patwa spellings seem really counterintuitive. "fainali" i keep wanting to pronounce as "fay-nali", and "raitin" as "ray-tin".

but then, would "finali" be better? i might be tempted to say "FIN-ali".or should it just be "finally", as u say, imported directly from the English?

also, the internet has had a strong influence on written language, English and French, as far as i can see - haven't noticed the influence on Spanish - and even patwa. i wonder how out of date the new patwa orthography already is because it may not reflect internet and text derived evolutions in spelling.

anyway, i know this writing system for patwa has been a long time in the making, and i'm glad it has reached this important point. although, IronMan, u say it's done - in language, nottn no eva done enuh...
</div></div>

MG we agree once again...going back to what I said pages ago that Jamaican patois is evolving and ever changing hence this is something that still needs to be researched IMO... </div></div>

Well, U.S. & British <span style="font-style: italic">English</span> are constantly evolving, but there are standard forms of writing <span style="font-style: italic">them</span>. The same goes for French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Dutch, Afrikaans, etc... even <span style="font-style: italic">Haitian Kreyol</span>. But there are obviously standard writing forms of all of these languages too.

The thing that happens when there is evolution, and new words come about, is that <span style="color: #006600">ADDITIONS</span> are made to the existing standardized form of the language/writing system. There is absolutely <span style="color: #660000">NO</span> reason for why that cannot happen to Jamaican Creole.

Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

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