Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

[RcOmK]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Iron_Man]

<span style="color: #006600">Ex: Finally = Fai-na-li</span> <span style="font-style: italic">How is that difficult or confusing?</span>
<span style="color: #990000">MG: it's difficult/confusing if ur learning patwa from an english background. i think i said that in my original comments, in response to monk's similar point. some patwa spellings make a word unrecognizable. monk's point was that when english was being developed/codified, certain words that were being carried over from another language came with the original spelling. the patwa writing system probably would be easier to teach to a child who has no knowledge of english spelling.</span>

</div></div>

Learning French from an English background can be difficult as well. This is because of the conjugations, gender of nouns and adjectives, the pronunciation of words (and their endings), etc. But when the French writing system was being developed should they have thought about how difficult it would be for non French speakers to learn? No.

I'm sorry, but if someone who does not speak Jamaican Creole, and wants to learn it, then <span style="text-decoration: underline">they should do what everyone else who learns a foreign language does and suck it up, and learn it. </span>

LOL I could only imagine the audacity of someone taking Dutch, for instance, complaining to the professor that they should have made it easier for English speakers to learn LOL

However, French can also be easy for a native English speaker because of the large amount of <span style="color: #006600">cognates</span> (words that look/pretty much look and sound like the English equivalent). And I believe that is how the new standard Jamaican Creole writing is; The syntax, grammar, pronunciation, and various vocab words are different, but there are still many <span style="color: #006600">cognates</span>.

[julie*mango]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

funny thing monk but did you know that olde english actually used h before vowels for example it would be hit...interesting how we acquired that propensity...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no 'h'?

just jumping in here, but...here is a funny story about h in patois.

a bredren of mine once told me I should get some 'hair' conditioning. It came out of the blue one day as we sat in my apt. He must have seen how I was looking at him, so he went to say so that I would be more comfortable during the day, and he knew one next bredren who could hook it up. Since I keep a shaved head, I really had no idea what the F was he referring to or what he was talking about...I chalked it up to him just cutting cards, and so for the life of me I could not understand why he was going on about hair conditioning or why we would need to go see his friend about it if I wanted to get it.

It wasn't until we went to buy some eggs for breakfast one morning, and he asked the girl for where she had the cracked <span style="font-style: italic">heggs,</span> telling me we would save some money, that it clicked...never mind the fact I was perfectly fine without AC lmao, I grew up without it and we don't have it in the temple either for that matter lol...

I am curious though, since some words are obvious in their origin, and when they come into a language, they usually retain their origin spelling do they not...? Like the French/Norman words that worked into English...I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out, as there seems to be some convergence and sort of, a general figuring out I guess you could say, practically speaking mind you, already done...? </div></div>

[julie*mango]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out</div></div>

i agree. coming at patwa from an English background, some of the patwa spellings seem really counterintuitive. &quot;fainali&quot; i keep wanting to pronounce as &quot;fay-nali&quot;, and &quot;raitin&quot; as &quot;ray-tin&quot;.

but then, would &quot;finali&quot; be better? i might be tempted to say &quot;FIN-ali&quot;.or should it just be &quot;finally&quot;, as u say, imported directly from the English?

also, the internet has had a strong influence on written language, English and French, as far as i can see - haven't noticed the influence on Spanish - and even patwa. i wonder how out of date the new patwa orthography already is because it may not reflect internet and text derived evolutions in spelling.

anyway, i know this writing system for patwa has been a long time in the making, and i'm glad it has reached this important point. although, IronMan, u say it's done - in language, nottn no eva done enuh...
</div></div>

MG we agree once again...going back to what I said pages ago that Jamaican patois is evolving and ever changing hence this is something that still needs to be researched IMO... </div></div>



Well, U.S. &amp; British <span style="font-style: italic">English</span> are constantly evolving, but there are standard forms of writing <span style="font-style: italic">them</span>. The same goes for French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Dutch, Afrikaans, etc... even <span style="font-style: italic">Haitian Kreyol</span>. But there are obviously standard writing forms of all of these languages too.

The thing that happens when there is evolution, and new words come about, is that <span style="color: #006600">ADDITIONS</span> are made to the existing standardized form of the language/writing system. There is absolutely <span style="color: #660000">NO</span> reason for why that cannot happen to Jamaican Creole.

Agreed, however there does not appear to be a general consensus among native speakers where the current format is concerned...

[rudemonk]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

yeah I mean, I just find languages fascinating, so don't mind me really, but...

when a new language develops that is clearly influenced by a mother tongue or whatever you want to call it, I mean...it just seems to follow that it would more closely resemble it when written...

it's just interesting, maybe this is an improvement as to how english was codified into dictionaries, because lord knows it's not the clearest of languages when it comes to making sense of it.

___________, it's been a while since I broke out my copy of Sir Gauan, but I'm going to crack it open tonight later on, just to get a dose of Olde E.

So we can also see that even spelling conventions change to reflect the times, as knight used to be knicht didn't it.

[RcOmK]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no 'h'?

just jumping in here, but...here is a funny story about h in patois.

a bredren of mine once told me I should get some 'hair' conditioning. It came out of the blue one day as we sat in my apt. He must have seen how I was looking at him, so he went to say so that I would be more comfortable during the day, and he knew one next bredren who could hook it up. Since I keep a shaved head, I really had no idea what the F was he referring to or what he was talking about...I chalked it up to him just cutting cards, and so for the life of me I could not understand why he was going on about hair conditioning or why we would need to go see his friend about it if I wanted to get it.

It wasn't until we went to buy some eggs for breakfast one morning, and he asked the girl for where she had the cracked <span style="font-style: italic">heggs,</span> telling me we would save some money, that it clicked...never mind the fact I was perfectly fine without AC lmao, I grew up without it and we don't have it in the temple either for that matter lol...

I am curious though, since some words are obvious in their origin, and when they come into a language, they usually retain their origin spelling do they not...? Like the French/Norman words that worked into English...I guess I would have expected, reading it, to hold somewhat closer to regular english spelling, isn't some of the language actually contained in pronunciation and not so much how it is phonetically fitted?

I think the linguist might have looked into how speakers are already typing it out, as there seems to be some convergence and sort of, a general figuring out I guess you could say, practically speaking mind you, already done...? </div></div>


Hmmm, yeah that is true, I've definitely heard that... this is what the Jamaican Language Unit has to say about &quot;h&quot;:

<span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;In the above list, h has a peculiar status. For some speakers of Jamaican, notably those in the
western and central areas of the country, this is a sound which is used purely for emphasis. For
these speakers, the form hen with the h is simply an emphatic version of en ‘hen, end, the letter
n’. For many speakers in Western Jamaica, however, hen can only mean ‘hen’, with en meaning
‘end or the letter n’. Writers should use the letter h in writing according to the manner in which
they use it in their speech.&quot;</span>

[julie*mango]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

and right was riht and so on...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah I mean, I just find languages fascinating, so don't mind me really, but...

when a new language develops that is clearly influenced by a mother tongue or whatever you want to call it, I mean...it just seems to follow that it would more closely resemble it when written...

it's just interesting, maybe this is an improvement as to how english was codified into dictionaries, because lord knows it's not the clearest of languages when it comes to making sense of it.

___________, it's been a while since I broke out my copy of Sir Gauan, but I'm going to crack it open tonight later on, just to get a dose of Olde E.

So we can also see that even spelling conventions change to reflect the times, as knight used to be knicht didn't it. </div></div>

[britisha]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

Check this, just ran into it...guess if Jamaican Creyol has a paucity of words in the vocab, it will still be okay and easy to learn. **chukkle**
learn Spanish in 138 words

[mountaingal]

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry, but if someone who does not speak Jamaican Creole, and wants to learn it, then <span style="text-decoration: underline">they should do what everyone else who learns a foreign language does and suck it up, and learn it. </span>

LOL I could only imagine the audacity of someone taking Dutch, for instance, complaining to the professor that they should have made it easier for English speakers to learn LOL </div></div>

u missed my point. i was talking about jamaicans who are going to learn patwa spelling after a lifetime of writing english (hence my comment about teaching it to children who have not already been exposed to writing in english). jamaicans are ur critical audience if u have any hope of patwa writing system taking hold, because its not foreigners who will make patwa live, no matter hummuch them learn it.

u also continue to miss my point that a writing system is also subject to change. over the years as english evolved, the way to denote the *f* sound varied. now, with the influence of the internet, ur finding that depiction of sounds and the way words are written are changing too. i expect in my lifetime to see some new spellings of old words codified into a simpler format as a result of the times and technology.