A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

**barosa** · 07-15-2009, 02:57 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: Tuff Gong </span></span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These arguments are baseless and remind me a lot of the scare and blame conspiracy theories that abound here. Suddenly enemies are all around us and the minute we get rid of our army, here they come over the boarder and into Jamaica:
Trinidad
USA
Venezuela,
The Cayman Islands,
Turks and Caicos,
Grenada
The Bahamas
Haiti
Cuba
.... folks who thought were our friends will suddenly in concert attack and devour us.
Little Jamaica one of the most murderous and indebted country in the world suddenly at the mercy of its former friends all because we abolished an ineffective and expensive military.</div></div>
Ah Tuffy!, thanks for your valiant effort in your many responses. As much as I disagree with some of you points, I will defend your right to make them... ~ Apparently, you have assumed that "you and only you" have all the answers for what ails Jamaica. If that were true, we would all be living in <span style="font-weight: bold">perpetual bliss "dung a yaawd" all this time!</span> ~ `You would have been an invaluable asset to whatever Govt that came into power... Have you ever thought of offering your services to our beloved country?.. ~ This, I'll give you, "you'll defend your stance or belief, come hell or high water" and that's an admirable quality in any individual... However, you have to be reminded, that your views and opinions, just like the rest of us, are uniquely yours... Hyperbole can be a very iffective tool in getting one's point across, but when you state as I quote:

(a)<span style="font-weight: bold">These arguments are baseless and remind me a lot of the scare and blame conspiracy theories that abound here. Suddenly enemies are all around us and the minute we get rid of our army, here they come over the boarder and into Jamaica.</span>

(b)<span style="font-weight: bold">folks who thought were our friends will suddenly in concert attack and devour us.
Little Jamaica one of the most murderous and indebted country in the world suddenly at the mercy of its former friends all because we abolished an ineffective and expensive military.</span>

then my friend, is a bit much; you have taken it to another "new" level...
___________________________

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Dwight Eisenhower

**Dyoll_73** · 07-15-2009, 02:59 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These arguments are baseless and remind me a lot of the scare and blame conspiracy theories that abound here. Suddenly enemies are all around us and the minute we get rid of our army, here they come over the boarder and into Jamaica:
Trinidad
USA
Venezuela,
The Cayman Islands,
Turks and Caicos,
Grenada
The Bahamas
Haiti
Cuba
.... folks who thought were our friends will suddenly in concert attack and devour us.
Little Jamaica one of the most murderous and indebted country in the world suddenly at the mercy of its former friends all because we abolished an ineffective and expensive military.
</div></div>

We have to invent enemies. Those freakin Trinis are going to occupy Jamaica if we abolish the JDF!

**evanovitch** · 07-15-2009, 03:00 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest? </div></div>

the ? , given ur stance, should not be wen was the last time but rather has it ever happened...n it has...so military use in this way happens even in a first world country that has state an federal forms of policing to hangle tings ...so Ja wid its pecadilloes can use its JDF in dis way if it wants....afta all, like elsewhere, the reason is more fi effect...military has more shock effect shall we say

**Dyoll_73** · 07-15-2009, 03:41 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why even remove them to Caymanas when they have presence at various other locations around Jamaica?
If you are going to keep the JDF why waste more money in developing new places for them?</div></div>

Does Moneague have the space to accomodate the JDF HQ? Not sure. I know the Mandeville base is just a small space. Newcastle currently houses a lot of personnel and is a major training facility. Vernamfied has an air-strip. In any case, the dissolution of the JDF wouldn't happen overnight, and if a place can be constructed at minimum cost to house them temporarily, preferably in nearby Caymanas, then that would be good thing.

Kingston is in need of an effective urban policy regarding zoning, transportation, infrastructure, public safety, and hopefully, taking environmental concerns into consideration. If there was the political will and competence, that area could be <span style="font-weight: bold">help</span> to solve Kingston's housing problem.

**barosa** · 07-15-2009, 03:45 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: Humano</span> </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">It was during the Viet Namn War. The local police was not up to the task and they had to call on the National Reserve Guard onto the Campus of Ohio State, if my memory serves me right!</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I just don't get the logic of people who say we need the JDF to quell civil unrest because the police force is inadequate when the problem could be fixed by making the JCF effective and adequate to deal with those problems. Just fix the JCF!</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">You are admitting that the JCF is a bumbling bunch of incompetent quaisi military outfit incapable of putting down a civil unrest on their own.. You a re right about the JCF need fixing! You are also right about what they should be capaple of and that is: a "civil unrest" should be well within their scope to handle but sadly, they are presently not up to the task. ~ I am not sure about your memory, but they have repeatedly failed this test in the past. Their most glaring failure was when Patterson decided to move against Tivoli Gardens due to an "unrest" which got out of hand. What did he do? <span style="font-weight: bold">He called out the Military to assist the incompetent JCF to contain and prevent the situation from getting much worse.</span> You may not believe it, but it was the <span style="font-weight: bold">JDF boys from Up Park Camp</span> that saved the day for Patterson and his govt... I rest my case</span>...
_____________________________

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Dwight Eisenhower

**Dyoll_73** · 07-15-2009, 03:52 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest? </div></div>

the ? , given ur stance, should not be wen was the last time but rather has it ever happened...n it has... </div></div>

What were the circumstances under which the <span style="font-weight: bold">US Military</span> under the command of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (not the national guard) was deployed in the streets, as you said, to quell civil unrest?

**Dyoll_73** · 07-15-2009, 04:31 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: Humano</span> </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">It was during the Viet Namn War. The local police was not up to the task and they had to call on the National Reserve Guard onto the Campus of Ohio State, if my memory serves me right!</span></div></div>

There is a difference when we speak of the National Guard, which is under the command of the state governors (the word "national" does not necessarily mean 'federal'), and, say, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Army, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Air Force, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Navy, etc, which are under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the President of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> in his capacity as Commander in Chief of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US armed forces</span> according to the <span style="text-decoration: underline">US</span> Constitution. Do you see my point?

So, yes, the <span style="font-weight: bold">National Guard of the State of Washington</span>, for example, may have augmented the police of the State of Washington during the Seattle riots (during the IMF/World Bank meeting in 2000, as it did on a few occasions during the Vietnam War), but <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>. Do you see the difference. During Katrina, the National Guard of some states were 'federalized' by GW Bush, but, again, <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I just don't get the logic of people who say we need the JDF to quell civil unrest because the police force is inadequate when the problem could be fixed by making the JCF effective and adequate to deal with those problems. Just fix the JCF!</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">You are admitting that the JCF is a bumbling bunch of incompetent quaisi military outfit incapable of putting down a civil unrest on their own.. You a re right about the JCF need fixing! You are also right about what they should be capaple of and that is: a "civil unrest" should be well within their scope to handle but sadly, they are presently not up to the task. ~ I am not sure about your memory, but they have repeatedly failed this test in the past. Their most glaring failure was when Patterson decided to move against Tivoli Gardens due to an "unrest" which got out of hand. What did he do? <span style="font-weight: bold">He called out the Military to assist the incompetent JCF to contain and prevent the situation from getting much worse.</span> You may not believe it, but it was the <span style="font-weight: bold">JDF boys from Up Park Camp</span> that saved the day for Patterson and his govt... I rest my case</span></div></div>

Even if we grant that these are indeed the facts as you have stated them, it re-inforces my point, not negate it. The solution is to fix the JCF to make it capable of dealing with what it was sworn to do. Why is this so hard to understand. We say the JCF is incompetent, therefore we need the JDF, and in the meanwhile, we do nothing to fix the JCF so it can do what is is supposed to do, and that includes dealing with instances of civil unrest.

X · 07-15-2009, 05:01 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

**Dyoll_73** · 07-15-2009, 05:10 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Yeah, I saw that report too and was deeply concerned. Trinidad, I see too, has been doing some sabre rattling as well; the Trinidadian Parliament will debate a resolution later today whether or not it will deploy an occupying force in Jamaica. I will find the report and post a link.

X · 07-15-2009, 05:16 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

Looks like its all good now Humano ..
Update:

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-15-2009, 05:40 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: Humano</span> </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">It was during the Viet Namn War. The local police was not up to the task and they had to call on the National Reserve Guard onto the Campus of Ohio State, if my memory serves me right!</span></div></div>

There is a difference when we speak of the National Guard, which is under the command of the state governors (the word "national" does not necessarily mean 'federal'), and, say, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Army, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Air Force, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Navy, etc, which are under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the President of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> in his capacity as Commander in Chief of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US armed forces</span> according to the <span style="text-decoration: underline">US</span> Constitution. Do you see my point?

So, yes, the <span style="font-weight: bold">National Guard of the State of Washington</span>, for example, may have augmented the police of the State of Washington during the Seattle riots (during the IMF/World Bank meeting in 2000, as it did on a few occasions during the Vietnam War), but <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>. Do you see the difference. During Katrina, the National Guard of some states were 'federalized' by GW Bush, but, again, <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I just don't get the logic of people who say we need the JDF to quell civil unrest because the police force is inadequate when the problem could be fixed by making the JCF effective and adequate to deal with those problems. Just fix the JCF!</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">You are admitting that the JCF is a bumbling bunch of incompetent quaisi military outfit incapable of putting down a civil unrest on their own.. You a re right about the JCF need fixing! You are also right about what they should be capaple of and that is: a "civil unrest" should be well within their scope to handle but sadly, they are presently not up to the task. ~ I am not sure about your memory, but they have repeatedly failed this test in the past. Their most glaring failure was when Patterson decided to move against Tivoli Gardens due to an "unrest" which got out of hand. What did he do? <span style="font-weight: bold">He called out the Military to assist the incompetent JCF to contain and prevent the situation from getting much worse.</span> You may not believe it, but it was the <span style="font-weight: bold">JDF boys from Up Park Camp</span> that saved the day for Patterson and his govt... I rest my case</span></div></div>

Even if we grant that these are indeed the facts as you have stated them, it re-inforces my point, not negate it. The solution is to fix the JCF to make it capable of dealing with what it was sworn to do. Why is this so hard to understand. We say the JCF is incompetent, therefore we need the JDF, and in the meanwhile, we do nothing to fix the JCF so it can do what is is supposed to do, and that includes dealing with instances of civil unrest.

</div></div> The question is, are they police or military?
You state that Jamaican police should be able to do it without the assistance of military support.

**britisha** · 07-15-2009, 06:52 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like its all good now Humano ..
Update:
</div></div>

Wot a waste of BANDWITH...

X · 07-15-2009, 07:22 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like its all good now Humano ..
Update:
</div></div>

Wot a waste of BANDWITH... </div></div>

**britisha** · 07-15-2009, 08:24 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span></div></div>

This is a rather dishonest question, because nowhere was it ever implied in that statement that the "Military" should be called out to quell any Civil unrest, or has done so in the US...It has been done in other countries,<span style="font-weight: bold"> so what is your point?</span>

The response to your emphatic statement and I quote:<span style="font-weight: bold">
This is something an efficient police force can do. What does it say about the quality of our police apparatus if we have to maintain a military to deal with what should be within police jurisdiction in the first place?</span>

...and the reply, using the US, YOUR frame of reference: <span style="font-style: italic">

Can you cite how many instances of civil unrest/riots, when the Police proved inadequate to deal with the problem and the National Guard had to be called out to quell the anarchy and restore civility?</span>

The response was to use your frame of reference, the US to show <span style="font-weight: bold">that your statement not only shows that your attitude is biased but lacks objectivity and serious thought. In fact it is unfair to </span> hide behind some rather flowery terms in talking about "maintain a military to deal with what should be within police jurisdiction." Since you failed to say what you meant, is it fair enough to ask if you could be referring to a scenario of the average street urchin who is running down Darling Street with a victim's handbag, with the police in tow, but being outrun...so we now have to call in the military.

Exactly what did you mean by that statement, any how?

<span style="font-style: italic">Fortunately, Barosa supplied some recent historic event, where had not the JDF been called out in West Kingston when it was like the Wild Wild West, with bodies decomposing and lying in the streets for days. [something I had opposed] it could have been uglier. </span>

So now you are giving us a dissertation on the National Guard, when it is not warranted...since all that was being done is to use your frame of reference to show why the Police in any nation might not be adequately prepared to deal with Civil unrest among other things...dass all...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There is a difference when we speak of the National Guard, which is under the command of the state governors (the word "national" does not necessarily mean 'federal'), and, say, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Army, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Air Force, the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> Navy, etc, which are under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the President of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US</span> in his capacity as Commander in Chief of the <span style="font-weight: bold">US armed forces</span> according to the <span style="text-decoration: underline">US</span> Constitution. Do you see my point?

So, yes, the <span style="font-weight: bold">National Guard of the State of Washington</span>, for example, may have augmented the police of the State of Washington during the Seattle riots (during the IMF/World Bank meeting in 2000, as it did on a few occasions during the Vietnam War), but <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>. Do you see the difference. During Katrina, the National Guard of some states were 'federalized' by GW Bush, but, again, <span style="font-weight: bold">not the armed forces of the United States</span>. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I just don't get the logic of people who say we need the JDF to quell civil unrest because the police force is inadequate when the problem could be fixed by making the JCF effective and adequate to deal with those problems. Just fix the JCF!</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">britisha:</span>: People must be basing their LOGIC on "a posteriori" knowledge...afterall, what is more solid than that? See Barosa's example. Again, the "Military" doesn't have to do anything, just their presence will send a message to the rioters/anarchists to back off or else.

[quote]
Even if we grant that these are indeed the facts as you have stated them, it re-inforces my point, not negate it. The solution is to fix the JCF to make it capable of dealing with what it was sworn to do. Why is this so hard to understand. We say the JCF is incompetent, therefore we need the JDF, and in the meanwhile, we do nothing to fix the JCF so it can do what is is supposed to do, and that includes dealing with instances of civil unrest.
</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">britisha:</span> THIS IS YOUR LOGIC!! Citing a fact that occurs in almost every nation, and to use it to bolster your argument or rather attempt to show why UPC should be sold is not dealing with the issue, but rather circumventing it; while substituting what you believe are the real issues why UPC should be moved.

**Panajar** · 07-15-2009, 08:27 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and for those who think that Jamaica, <span style="font-weight: bold">a sovereign nation</span> cannot come under attack from outside, wheel and come again...I have noticed that some are trying to say that THERE IS NO REASON/WI NOH HAFF NUTT'N for any one/nation/[s] to want to invade Jamaica.

What planet are you living on?

There have been radical changes <span style="font-weight: bold">globally</span> that have occurred since 9/11!! Ideologies have changed, concerns re personal and national security have changed in every nation, people have been more suspicious of their borders and enforcing more stringent policies to ensure national security; PLUS ALLIES ARE SUSPICIOUS AND WARY OF EACH OTHER...

Here comes Jamaica that wants to be counted among the progressive nations; still yet it would want to abandon it's "military" because we are a<span style="font-size: 23pt"> docile group of people, called a nation, only by name: with only white sandy beaches to relax and enjoy "calypso and reggae" and sip a whites.</span>..but of course.

I always say it, I always think it...the <span style="font-weight: bold">proximity of Jamaica to Cuba</span> should not be taken lightly....not to mention the fact that Cuban planes were landing at NW Manley airport with much frequency in the 70's; much to the chagrin of the US that seldom lets others forget their past anti-American<span style="font-weight: bold">" wrongs."</span> Plus Chavez nearby is very ficckle...and disliked because of the petroleum his country has...what if Jamaica discover the black gold tomorrow? Then what? Pay mercenaries to defend our shores? [following the arguments here...mi juss a seh, since oono a show yyy Jamaica couldn't be invaded]

Afterall those who kin teeth wid yuh, might stab you in the chest tomorrow [read between the lines] di old man soon dead..whole heap a hornet's nest could be stirred up. Is which South American nation did "invade" it's neighbours earlier this year?

Jamaica is not all that loved, [**chukkle*...di recent news reports have shown that] even by it's own people...many of whom are in the overseas armed forces and could easily upstage the applecart from outside with their knowledge and know-how...someboddies mentioned from within as well.

...and if anybody think that because Obama is black he wouldn't do what he has to do if the need arises, wheel and cum agen.

I think UPC should stay right were it is and not be sold. </div></div>

NO WONDA DEM SEY WI A THE TIRD HAPPIEST PEOPLE PON EARTH...IGNORANCE IS BLISS..LOL

A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

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