A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uswe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">ummmm what communication system ?</span> kissteet. cho</div></div>


Yuh mad?


If dem haff such a haawwd time fi learn patois, whamek yuh think dem cyaan study the talking drums?

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assure you, Caymanas would be nearer. By helicopter response to get to Kingston, it would be nearer; by trucks, even nearer - get on Mandella Highway into Kingston, whether by Spanish Town Road, or Washington Boulevard. Nearer than by entering DC from Prince Georges Country, Maryland. Go on Google Earth and see for yourself</div></div>. </div></div>

this is all apples and oranges ..
to compare Kingston/Caymanas and Maryland/Washington surely does not compute ..
</div></div>

Agreed. </div></div>

Like Sinco, you missed my point. Those two areas - Kingston and Washington, and Caymanas and PG County, Maryland, respectively, were mentioned <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">ONLY</span> </span>to show the distance between the capital - of both nations - and the nearest military installation in the event that a military response is required.

... or it could be I didn't make myself clear.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears from what I've gleaned, that Humano, Doc Dudd, Tuff Gong are solidly in favour of sounding the death knell of the JDF... Humano is in favour of the Govt's plan to re-locate it to Vernamfield until such time that the JDF as a body is dissolved... Doc Dudd and Tuffy and I'm sure, a few others join them in their wish for a dismantling and collapsing the JDF and the JCF into one body. ~ </div></div>

I think Dr Dudd is strongly in favour of keeping the JDF as a separate entity from the JCF.

I personally would prefer relocation to Caymanas.

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With well armed dons in political garrisons, Jamaica cannot afford to let our guard down especially in Kingston... Keep them close to the trouble &quot;Hotspots&quot;... </div></div>

This is something an efficient police force can do. What does it say about the quality of our police apparatus if we have to maintain a military to deal with what should be within police jurisdiction in the first place? </div></div>

Nonsense !!

Since you keep referring to the US in terms of the distance between AFB abd the White House, let me use a reference to the US to make this point. Can you cite how many instances of civil unrest/riots, when the Police proved inadequate to deal with the problem and the National Guard had to be called out to quell the anarchy and restore civility?

What does this say about the &quot;quality of the police apparatus&quot; [whateva dat means] in the US?

There are times when the Police will be inadequate in any nation to deal with anarchy, it is the military that keep some &quot;civil&quot; and law abiding, not the Police. Criminals/insurrectionists will think twice to challenge the Military, as compared to the police who they will take out in a heartbeat and don't blink an eyelash.

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

...and for those who think that Jamaica, <span style="font-weight: bold">a sovereign nation</span> cannot come under attack from outside, wheel and come again...I have noticed that some are trying to say that THERE IS NO REASON/WI NOH HAFF NUTT'N for any one/nation/[s] to want to invade Jamaica.


What planet are you living on?

There have been radical changes <span style="font-weight: bold">globally</span> that have occurred since 9/11!! Ideologies have changed, concerns re personal and national security have changed in every nation, people have been more suspicious of their borders and enforcing more stringent policies to ensure national security; PLUS ALLIES ARE SUSPICIOUS AND WARY OF EACH OTHER...

Here comes Jamaica that wants to be counted among the progressive nations; still yet it would want to abandon it's &quot;military&quot; because we are a docile group of people, called a nation, only by name: with only white sandy beaches to relax and enjoy &quot;calypso and reggae&quot; and sip a whites...but of course.

I always say it, I always think it...the <span style="font-weight: bold">proximity of Jamaica to Cuba</span> should not be taken lightly....not to mention the fact that Cuban planes were landing at NW Manley airport with much frequency in the 70's; much to the chagrin of the US that seldom lets others forget their past anti-American<span style="font-weight: bold">&quot; wrongs.&quot;</span> Plus Chavez nearby is very ficckle...and disliked because of the petroleum his country has...what if Jamaica discover the black gold tomorrow? Then what? Pay mercenaries to defend our shores? [following the arguments here...mi juss a seh, since oono a show yyy Jamaica couldn't be invaded]


Afterall those who kin teeth wid yuh, might stab you in the chest tomorrow [read between the lines] di old man soon dead..whole heap a hornet's nest could be stirred up. Is which South American nation did &quot;invade&quot; it's neighbours earlier this year?

Jamaica is not all that loved, [**chukkle*...di recent news reports have shown that] even by it's own people...many of whom are in the overseas armed forces and could easily upstage the applecart from outside with their knowledge and know-how...someboddies mentioned from within as well.


...and if anybody think that because Obama is black he wouldn't do what he has to do if the need arises, wheel and cum agen.

I think UPC should stay right were it is and not be sold.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears from what I've gleaned, that Humano, Doc Dudd, Tuff Gong are solidly in favour of sounding the death knell of the JDF... Humano is in favour of the Govt's plan to re-locate it to Vernamfield until such time that the JDF as a body is dissolved... Doc Dudd and Tuffy and I'm sure, a few others join them in their wish for a dismantling and collapsing the JDF and the JCF into one body. ~ </div></div>

I think Dr Dudd is strongly in favour of keeping the JDF as a separate entity from the JCF.

I personally would prefer relocation to Caymanas. </div></div>

Dr. Dudd is in favour and has always been in favour of keeping the Army.
I am for getting rid of the Army and the ISCF all together and collapsing the functions into the JCF.
I am not for removing or selling UP Park Camp I am for allowing it to become the HQ of the new JCF.

As it is the JDF does not serve one earthly function, except to look smart and waste and ratepayers money.
Why even remove them to Caymanas when they have presence at various other locations around Jamaica?
If you are going to keep the JDF why waste more money in developing new places for them?

I say money is the issue and the GOJ needs to cut real cost not just change the drapes and whitewash the curbs.

[barosa]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears from what I've gleaned, that Humano, Doc Dudd, Tuff Gong are solidly in favour of sounding the death knell of the JDF... Humano is in favour of the Govt's plan to re-locate it to Vernamfield until such time that the JDF as a body is dissolved... Doc Dudd and Tuffy and I'm sure, a few others join them in their wish for a dismantling and collapsing the JDF and the JCF into one body. ~ </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I think Dr Dudd is strongly in favour of keeping the JDF as a separate entity from the JCF.</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">You are correct, that was an oversight on my part.</span>

I personally would prefer relocation to Caymanas. </div></div>

What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.&quot; - Dwight Eisenhower

[barosa]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<span style="font-weight: bold">]Dr. Dudd is in favour and has always been in favour of keeping the Army.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">You are correct, It was an oversight on my part</span>


I am for getting rid of the Army and the ISCF all together and collapsing the functions into the JCF.
I am not for removing or selling UP Park Camp I am for allowing it to become the HQ of the new JCF.
<span style="font-weight: bold">As it is the JDF does not serve one earthly function, except to look smart and waste and ratepayers money.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">I am surprised and taken aback that you would associate the JDF looking smart with wasting ratepayer's money. Would you rather them looking like a rag tag army?</span>


Why even remove them to Caymanas when they have presence at various other locations around Jamaica?
<span style="font-style: italic">Why not Let them remain at their HQ where they belong?</span>


If you are going to keep the JDF why waste more money in developing new places for them?
<span style="font-style: italic">That's a question for the Minister of National Defence.</span>


I say money is the issue and the GOJ needs to cut real cost not just change the drapes and whitewash the curbs.[/quote]

<span style="font-style: italic">Yeah! they should cut cost and live within their needs, but we all know that Jamaicans have a bad habit of being uneccessarily extravagant! Dont we?... What they want to do is to MAKE MONEY by selling PRIME real estate! that's not cutting real cost!</span>
______________________________

What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.&quot; - Dwight Eisenhower

[barosa]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<span style="font-size: 8pt"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: britisha </span></span>

Here comes Jamaica that wants to be counted among the progressive nations; still yet it would want to abandon it's &quot;military&quot; because we are a docile group of people, called a nation, only by name: with only white sandy beaches to relax and enjoy &quot;calypso and reggae&quot; and sip a whites...but of course.

<span style="font-style: italic">By abandoning it's military, for a &quot;police state civil defence system&quot;, we wouldn't be like Costa Rica that has no army. We would lose stature as a <span style="font-weight: bold">serious nation</span> and others would try to test us...</span> Can you imagine that as soon as we did that, Trinidad and Barbados suddenly enhanced and beef up their MILITARY... How would we FEEL??


I always say it, I always think it...the proximity of Jamaica to Cuba should not be taken lightly....not to mention the fact that Cuban planes were landing at NW Manley airport with much frequency in the 70's; much to the chagrin of the US that seldom lets others forget their past anti-American&quot; wrongs.&quot;

<span style="font-style: italic">The US is like an elephant, it never forgets and would most likely give us a lower rating as a military &quot;lightweight&quot; lumping us with those in that bracket as pushovers...</span>


Plus Chavez nearby is very ficckle...and disliked because of the petroleum his country has...what if Jamaica discover the black gold tomorrow? Then what? Pay mercenaries to defend our shores? [following the arguments here...mi juss a seh, since oono a show yyy Jamaica couldn't be invaded]

<span style="font-style: italic">Not only would Chavez re-evaluate us but the Colombian Cartel would possibly be interested in closer co-operation for obvious reasons...</span>
_____________________________

What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.&quot; - Dwight Eisenhower

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">I am surprised and taken aback that you would associate the JDF looking smart with wasting ratepayer's money. Would you rather them looking like a rag tag army?</span> </div></div>You have <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">missed </span>the point. <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Looking smart </span>is all they do they do not serve another earthly purpose.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why even remove them to Caymanas when they have presence at various other locations around Jamaica?
<span style="font-style: italic">Why not Let them remain at their HQ where they belong?</span></div></div>
Well I give you that point. My argument was to Humano who agrees with the sale and move. I say fine but wouldn't it be better to further develop say Moneague, rather than build a new Installation at Caymanas...<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">these being just two examples</span>?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to keep the JDF why waste more money in developing new places for them?
<span style="font-style: italic">That's a question for the Minister of National Defence.</span></div></div>.... no it is question for the GOJ and people who pay rates and taxes in Jamaica. Jamaica is broke!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Yeah! they should cut cost and live within their needs, but we all know that Jamaicans have a bad habit of being uneccessarily extravagant! Dont we?... What they want to do is to MAKE MONEY by selling PRIME real estate! that's not cutting real cost!</span></div></div>

Your argument is very confusing.
It is precisely this history of extravagance that has put us in this position today of contemplating the sale of such installations and prime lands....example the JDF, the Headquarters of the Police and Hope Gardens.

What is wrong in making money by selling Prime Real Estate?
Would it be any different in principle from making money by selling bauxite?
In this instance I do not agree the sale, not because I do not want the GOJ to make money on behalf or the people of Jamaica, but trust me nothing good will ever come of developing those lands beyond what they are now.
There are plenty of potential lands suitable for housing in Kingston that are not being developed right now because of squatting and violence, to throw more land in this mix without attempting to solve the underlying problems is just plain crazy.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-size: 8pt"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by: britisha </span></span>

Here comes Jamaica that wants to be counted among the progressive nations; still yet it would want to abandon it's &quot;military&quot; because we are a docile group of people, called a nation, only by name: with only white sandy beaches to relax and enjoy &quot;calypso and reggae&quot; and sip a whites...but of course.

<span style="font-style: italic">By abandoning it's military, for a &quot;police state civil defence system&quot;, we wouldn't be like Costa Rica that has no army. We would lose stature as a <span style="font-weight: bold">serious nation</span> and others would try to test us...</span> Can you imagine that as soon as we did that, Trinidad and Barbados suddenly enhanced and beef up their MILITARY... How would we FEEL??


I always say it, I always think it...the proximity of Jamaica to Cuba should not be taken lightly....not to mention the fact that Cuban planes were landing at NW Manley airport with much frequency in the 70's; much to the chagrin of the US that seldom lets others forget their past anti-American&quot; wrongs.&quot;

<span style="font-style: italic">The US is like an elephant, it never forgets and would most likely give us a lower rating as a military &quot;lightweight&quot; lumping us with those in that bracket as pushovers...</span>


Plus Chavez nearby is very ficckle...and disliked because of the petroleum his country has...what if Jamaica discover the black gold tomorrow? Then what? Pay mercenaries to defend our shores? [following the arguments here...mi juss a seh, since oono a show yyy Jamaica couldn't be invaded]

<span style="font-style: italic">Not only would Chavez re-evaluate us but the Colombian Cartel would possibly be interested in closer co-operation for obvious reasons...</span>
_____________________________

What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.&quot; - Dwight Eisenhower
</div></div>

These arguments are baseless and remind me a lot of the scare and blame conspiracy theories that abound here. Suddenly enemies are all around us and the minute we get rid of our army, here they come over the boarder and into Jamaica:
Trinidad
USA
Venezuela,
The Cayman Islands,
Turks and Caicos,
Grenada
The Bahamas
Haiti
Cuba
.... folks who thought were our friends will suddenly in concert attack and devour us.
Little Jamaica one of the most murderous and indebted country in the world suddenly at the mercy of its former friends all because we abolished an ineffective and expensive military.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you keep referring to the US in terms of the distance between AFB abd the White House, let me use a reference to the US to make this point. Can you cite how many instances of civil unrest/riots, when the Police proved inadequate to deal with the problem and the National Guard had to be called out to quell the anarchy and restore civility?</div></div>

I'm surprised at your line of reasoning. I'm talking about a &quot;military response&quot; in the event that the US or Jamaica is attacked/invaded from an <span style="font-weight: bold">external force</span>, and here you're talking about a national guard response to some <span style="font-weight: bold">civil unrest or emergency</span>.

In Jamaica's case, <span style="font-weight: bold">if it had an effective and adequate Riot Police</span>, it could easily handle civil unrest without having to call out the JDF. Why do nations have a special branch of the police forces that deals with civil unrest? This notion that bad bwoy only respect soldier is probably at the heart of the thinking of those who argue that only the JDF is competent to handle these kinds of problems.

When was the last time you saw the <span style="font-weight: bold">Military of the United States</span> (specifically the <span style="font-weight: bold">US Army</span> and <span style="font-weight: bold">US Airforce</span>) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?

I just don't get the logic of people who say we need the JDF to quell civil unrest because the police force is inadequate when the problem could be fixed by making the JCF effective and adequate to deal with those problems. Just fix the JCF!