Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

[Magician]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

Yuh seet!

That's why I am skeptical about the benefits of this deal, apart of course from the piece a road. That article says the works will emply many Jamaicans. From what I see in places like Uganda, only the least-skilled workers are local, while all the skilled workers and all managers are imported from China.

In Angola, even the least-skilled labour is Chinese. Not one local job is created despite 2 billion (US) in Chinese-sponsored projects in that country.

One could argue that a (nearly) free road with no new jobs is better than no road, but this is just the beginning, and the precedent set on this deal will shape how much Jamaica will benefit from Chinese involvement.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

What is different from the funding mechanism used in all other foreign financed projects?

How so you see this as a leash'??
What other factor differentiate this funding mechanism in a negative way from the way Jamaica has historically funded major projects.
Not to mention the funding of Highway 2000 ?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chinese launch Palisadoes Road project

Gov’t hopes it will reverse ‘vortex of decline’

BY ALICIA ROACHE [email protected]

Friday, April 23, 2010


THE launch of the Palisadoes shoreline protection and rehabilitation works, held yesterday on Palisadoes Road, signals the first in a series of activities aimed at stimulating economic activity in the East Kingston area.

The US$65.7-million (J$5.85 billion) project is primarily being <span style="font-weight: bold">financed by the China Exim Bank</span>, which is providing US$55.8 million ($4.97 billion) or 85 per cent of the amount. <span style="font-weight: bold">The Jamaican government is providing the remaining 15 per cent.</span>


Concrete slab signalling the launch of the Palisadoes shoreline protection and rehabilitation works project held yesterday.
Concrete slab signalling the launch of the Palisadoes shoreline protection and rehabilitation works project held yesterday. 1/1

Minister of Transport and Works Mike Henry said at the launch that the project, which is being undertaken by the China Harbour Engineering Company (CHEC), would reverse the &quot;vortex of decline&quot; that has characterised the way some Jamaicans view issues of national development.

&quot;The first thing it creates is a different impression on arriving,&quot; Henry said of the proposed four-lane highway that will run from the Harbour View roundabout to the Norman Manley International Airport, adding that it would give &quot;<span style="font-weight: bold">an impression </span>of a country moving forward&quot;.

CHEC, described as one of the premier maritime contractors in the world, will among other things, lift the Palisadoes Road six to eight feet higher, construct a boardwalk which can accommodate jogging and an entertainment facility, and run underground power cables from the Harbour View roundabout to the airport.

In addition to protecting the shoreline and the Kingston Harbour, where there will also be additional expansion work, Henry said the long-term view of development of the area is to connect it with the remainder of the highway network across the country and generally expand the business community and the possibilities that exist therein. Henry also stressed the connectivity of the Caribbean Maritime Institute and the Gun Boat area.

Some of these developments include the construction of a four-lane bridge over the Harbour View river, an East coast highway to St Thomas and the development of a cruise ship port for Port Royal. This is to be done in collaboration with Carnival cruise lines, the negotiations for which will be finalised by May 11 this year.

The shoreline rehabilitation and protection project will begin work July 1,2010 and is expected to continue for two years. Henry said this is a signal to the local and international business community that Jamaica is a place for investments.

&quot;It will mean business people can come. It much enhances the whole developmental prospects,&quot; Henry said, arguing that the project would open up &quot;the gateway to match the development of downtown Kingston&quot;.

The transfer of knowledge from the Chinese engineers, recognised among the best internationally, to the local workers who will collaborate on the project was also emphasised by the minister as a notable indication of more development prospects.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The project will employ hundreds of Jamaicans</span>, according to Sun Ziyu, Chairman and CEO of CHEC, who said that among the spin-offs of the partnership is that scholarships will be awarded to 10 local engineers to study in China. Jamaica will in turn provide English language training scholarships for selected Chinese participants.

Henry said this kind of knowledge transfer will be a feature of future partnerships between the countries.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I am eager to see if the project will indeed employ Jamaicans. From what I see in other countries around the world who welcome Chinese investment, there's not a single local face to be seen during construction of any projects. </div></div>

Putting Fun &amp; Joke aside, this is a serious project! Magix, mi a wanda how much of a leash fi wi govament a go gi di Chinese? Dont get me wrong, I'm all for the development and improvement of the Palisadoes area and Port Royal Cruise line Facilities, etc; but we must be careful not to &quot;give away the store&quot; for peanuts...
________________________

At a time of international deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell </div></div>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

Jamaica has never invested seed money at more than15% on any major project That has been finanef by any international organization.
That include The EU,USAID,WORLD BANK,.

So why That concern all of a sudden?

[kia027]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yuh seet!

That's why I am skeptical about the benefits of this deal, apart of course from the piece a road. That article says the works will emply many Jamaicans. From what I see in places like Uganda, only the least-skilled workers are local, while all the skilled workers and all managers are imported from China.

In Angola, even the least-skilled labour is Chinese. Not one local job is created despite 2 billion (US) in Chinese-sponsored projects in that country.

One could argue that a (nearly) free road with no new jobs is better than no road, but this is just the beginning, and the precedent set on this deal will shape how much Jamaica will benefit from Chinese involvement. </div></div>

Not to mention the babies they will leave behind

[Jazz]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

Thank for this Magix - mi nevva catch dis wan...

I was reading it to missa Man an de fuss ting him say is &quot;I wonder wah we promise dem for them to pay 85%?&quot;

Here's the question - if this signals a wave of Chinese interest and investment in Jamaica - would that be such a bad thing?

Look how long de odda so called 1st world countries a pillage Jamaica likkle by likkle an we nuh have nutten fe show fe those alleged alliances?

truthfully, mi nuh know how much worse it could get...

[barosa]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica has never invested seed money at more than15% on any major project That has been finanef by any international organization.
That include The EU,USAID,WORLD BANK,.

So why That concern all of a sudden? </div></div>

You see Doc, as stated by Magix who has seen how the Chinese go about similar projects undertaken in Africa, we can't assume that they will treat us differently. The Chinese have shown a lot of interest in Jamaica recently and although we may benefit some, from whatever they invest in, they will gain <span style="font-weight: bold">so much much more</span> than we ever will... China, a growing Super Power will exert more influence with time, evoking for us, a situation similar to that of a colony. We have to be on our guard against that...
________________________

At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell

[Magician]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank for this Magix - mi nevva catch dis wan...

I was reading it to missa Man an de fuss ting him say is &quot;I wonder wah we promise dem for them to pay 85%?&quot;

Here's the question - if this signals a wave of Chinese interest and investment in Jamaica - would that be such a bad thing?

Look how long de odda so called 1st world countries a pillage Jamaica likkle by likkle an we nuh have nutten fe show fe those alleged alliances?

truthfully, mi nuh know how much worse it could get... </div></div>

Well you see Jazz we inna catch22 with this one. The only way to develop is to enter these alliances with the debil. There is a price to pay. With the IMF, it is debt servicing into bankcruptcy. What will it be with the Chinese? I'm not even sure what they are after, but I assume natural resources. That's what they are usually after. Bauxite to feed their hungry belly. Yes it's jobs in the mining industry, but do we want earth a run red with strip mines everywhere. Bauxite will finish and then what? Nothing can grow after bauxite mining strips the topsoil, and the place mash up touriss nuh come. So there goes top two sources of GDP (apart from remittances).

Not saying that the Chinese investment should be declined.
But Bruce and Portia should not look at it like kids in the candy store.
The cost of development should be balanced with the price for it.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway


This reaction to the Chinese remind me of how for years socalled educated Jamaicans use to comment about the superior education system Jamaica had.
While like this story, there was no basis of truth in it.
If someone could just point out where China through it's investment in Africa, has proven to be anywhere as destructss the hundreds of years of western involvement I could take you serious.
Otherwise I have to maintain that nothing less than racism against the Chinese is behind the obviously hypocritical view IV his damaging the Chinese economical involvement in developing countries is.
I don't forget how for years magic have been promoting the divestment of Air Jamaica, only to recently proclaim it to be at fault,because the Japanese government decide That doing do to there airline would be destructive.

That is what happen when we have opinion based on other people's views.
He also demonstrate over the years his bias against black people's ability to form sound opinions.
As long as the opinion is from some other race it us sound. As far as his posts alludes.
Now back to the task at hand.
Where is the evidence over the comparative involvement of any other country with Africa?
Where is the truth in thus China as the villian theory that us so oopularon this board?
As I always say, I hate racism,And I hate it in all it's forms against all people and by all people .
We can't except to be taken serious with our complaints about racism against us,if we are just as guilty of practicing it against others.
What see is the effect if fear as a paralyzing force,That mentally chain us to our historical colonial Condition.
It is the universal tool used for all recorded history against cowards.
If there is no risk, don't expect any reward.
A Coward keep sound bone,but they are usually the slaves of the brave.
[Barosa]

You see Doc, as stated by Magix who has seen how the Chinese go about similar projects undertaken in Africa, we can't assume that they will treat us differently. The Chinese have shown a lot of interest in Jamaica recently and although we may benefit some, from whatever they invest in, they will gain <span style="font-weight: bold">so much much more</span> than we ever will... China, a growing Super Power will exert more influence with time, evoking for us, a situation similar to that of a colony. We have to be on our guard against that...
________________________

At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell

[/quote]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

How much more racist could this statement be?

if this statement was made by a Republican about any black country we would not hear the end of it.
Yet we accept it here as innocuous.

How hypocritical can we be.

Where was magic when fellow Europeans were And still is robbing the eyes out if the country?

What make Portia any less capable then others that fud economic programs with China?
Where is the supporting dviwof Chins treating third world countries as pawns??
It seem like the IMF is the only organization That rob third world countries.
I notice you never write about What other governments do?
Especialy since They are white controlled.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank for this Magix - mi nevva catch dis wan...

I was reading it to missa Man an de fuss ting him say is &quot;I wonder wah we promise dem for them to pay 85%?&quot;

Here's the question - if this signals a wave of Chinese interest and investment in Jamaica - would that be such a bad thing?

Look how long de odda so called 1st world countries a pillage Jamaica likkle by likkle an we nuh have nutten fe show fe those alleged alliances?

truthfully, mi nuh know how much worse it could get... </div></div>

Well you see Jazz we inna catch22 with this one. The only way to develop is to enter these alliances with the debil. There is a price to pay. With the IMF, it is debt servicing into bankcruptcy. What will it be with the Chinese? I'm not even sure what they are after, but I assume natural resources. That's what they are usually after. Bauxite to feed their hungry belly. Yes it's jobs in the mining industry, but do we want earth a run red with strip mines everywhere. Bauxite will finish and then what? Nothing can grow after bauxite mining strips the topsoil, and the place mash up touriss nuh come. So there goes top two sources of GDP (apart from remittances).

Not saying that the Chinese investment should be declined.
But Bruce and Portia should not look at it like kids in the candy store.
The cost of development should be balanced with the price for it. </div></div>

[FinanciallySmart]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My experience with Chinese projects comes from observing their development in various African countries.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Let's face it, China is not a charitable foundation, and if they pour cash into Jamaica, they expect a return on their investment.</span>

Yes, it will be nice to have new infrastucture that will lead to other developments and attract further capital investment and tourism.
However, as we know, Jamaica is broke. In discussions with the Chinese, we have no leverage. The Chinese can dictate terms and conditions
and we can take it or leave it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The questions is, what is the long tern cost of the Chinese involvement, and is it a price that we're willing to pay?</span>

The politicians from both sides will tell you yes. With only 15% coming out of the coffers and a an airport access road that
don't wash weh in every hurricane will buy votes in the next election. Majority of the voters are very impressionable.
But when you read the fine print, this maybe just the beginning of Chinese sphere of influence, that can be likend to
a new colonial era.</div></div>
Magix, we are both on the same wavelength. With only a 15% stake in the projects, we wont even be treated as a junior partner but like helpers with no say... We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. If we are smart, long term agreements with our profits from certain aspects of developments in the area, Port Royal etc. going towards more percentage ownership should be in place...
__________________________

At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell </div></div>

Another sell out of Jamaica's assets. As we hear our representatives tell us that they are leasing out the Norman Manley Airport this is their way of keeping their hands off the surrounding areas as well. I sincerely hope that there will be work for the Jamaicans and not that Chinese will be imported to do the work. 15% is too small for one to have any talk in the matter.

[Sinco01]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

Point well taken ..
JA has to be real careful what they agree to with the Chinese for this project ..

How ever .. <span style="font-weight: bold">since they will lift the road 8 ft. .. will they also include culverts to let the outside Caribbean into Kingston Harbour to help flush some of the contaminants out ??? </span>

I've mentioned this before , when we thought Cuba would be the one to help with the restoration of Palisadoes.


<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="color: #000099">Chinese launch Palisadoes Road project</span>
</span>
Gov’t hopes it will reverse ‘vortex of decline’

BY ALICIA ROACHE [email protected]

Friday, April 23, 2010

THE launch of the Palisadoes shoreline protection and rehabilitation works, held yesterday on Palisadoes Road, signals the first in a series of activities aimed at stimulating economic activity in the East Kingston area.

The US$65.7-million (J$5.85 billion) project is primarily being financed by the China Exim Bank, which is providing US$55.8 million ($4.97 billion) or 85 per cent of the amount. The Jamaican government is providing the remaining 15 per cent.




<span style="font-style: italic">Concrete slab signalling the launch of the Palisadoes shoreline protection and rehabilitation works project held yesterday.</span>


Minister of Transport and Works Mike Henry said at the launch that the project, which is being undertaken by the China Harbour Engineering Company (CHEC), would reverse the &quot;vortex of decline&quot; that has characterised the way some Jamaicans view issues of national development.

&quot;The first thing it creates is a different impression on arriving,&quot; Henry said of the proposed four-lane highway that will run from the Harbour View roundabout to the Norman Manley International Airport, adding that it would give &quot;an impression of a country moving forward&quot;.

CHEC, described as one of the premier maritime contractors in the world, will among other things, lift the Palisadoes Road six to eight feet higher, construct a boardwalk which can accommodate jogging and an entertainment facility, and run underground power cables from the Harbour View roundabout to the airport.

In addition to protecting the shoreline and the Kingston Harbour, where there will also be additional expansion work, Henry said the long-term view of development of the area is to connect it with the remainder of the highway network across the country and generally expand the business community and the possibilities that exist therein. Henry also stressed the connectivity of the Caribbean Maritime Institute and the Gun Boat area.

Some of these developments include the construction of a four-lane bridge over the Harbour View river, an East coast highway to St Thomas and the development of a cruise ship port for Port Royal. This is to be done in collaboration with Carnival cruise lines, the negotiations for which will be finalised by May 11 this year.

The shoreline rehabilitation and protection project will begin work July 1,2010 and is expected to continue for two years. Henry said this is a signal to the local and international business community that Jamaica is a place for investments.

&quot;It will mean business people can come. It much enhances the whole developmental prospects,&quot; Henry said, arguing that the project would open up &quot;the gateway to match the development of downtown Kingston&quot;.

The transfer of knowledge from the Chinese engineers, recognised among the best internationally, to the local workers who will collaborate on the project was also emphasised by the minister as a notable indication of more development prospects.

The project will employ hundreds of Jamaicans, according to Sun Ziyu, Chairman and CEO of CHEC, who said that among the spin-offs of the partnership is that scholarships will be awarded to 10 local engineers to study in China. Jamaica will in turn provide English language training scholarships for selected Chinese participants.

Henry said this kind of knowledge transfer will be a feature of future partnerships between the countries.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

And you are passing off yourself as financially smart!!
If a customer is applying for a loan, what percentage deposit is reasonable? And at the percentage the Chinese extend loans,They are much more charitable than your favourite multinational or bilateral offers.
Talk about educated!!
The educated are the gatekeepers that are in place to obstruct the economic growth.
That is unless that growth is in favor of their colonial masters. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FinanciallySmart</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My experience with Chinese projects comes from observing their development in various African countries.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Let's face it, China is not a charitable foundation, and if they pour cash into Jamaica, they expect a return on their investment.</span>

Yes, it will be nice to have new infrastucture that will lead to other developments and attract further capital investment and tourism.
However, as we know, Jamaica is broke. In discussions with the Chinese, we have no leverage. The Chinese can dictate terms and conditions
and we can take it or leave it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The questions is, what is the long tern cost of the Chinese involvement, and is it a price that we're willing to pay?</span>

The politicians from both sides will tell you yes. With only 15% coming out of the coffers and a an airport access road that
don't wash weh in every hurricane will buy votes in the next election. Majority of the voters are very impressionable.
But when you read the fine print, this maybe just the beginning of Chinese sphere of influence, that can be likend to
a new colonial era.</div></div>
Magix, we are both on the same wavelength. With only a 15% stake in the projects, we wont even be treated as a junior partner but like helpers with no say... We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. If we are smart, long term agreements with our profits from certain aspects of developments in the area, Port Royal etc. going towards more percentage ownership should be in place...
__________________________

At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell </div></div>

Another sell out of Jamaica's assets. As we hear our representatives tell us that they are leasing out the Norman Manley Airport this is their way of keeping their hands off the surrounding areas as well. I sincerely hope that there will be work for the Jamaicans and not that Chinese will be imported to do the work. 15% is too small for one to have any talk in the matter. </div></div>

[R_C]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;Critics say China's approach has emboldened unsavoury governments, allowing them to ignore Western calls for reform, safe in the knowledge that Beijing will take up the slack.

Sudan, with its vast oil reserves, is the number one recipient of Chinese investment, and sells some two-thirds of its oil to Beijing. As a result, China has been criticised for its links with a government ostracised by many for its role in the ongoing crisis in Darfur&quot;. </span>

[Sinco01]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">&quot;Critics say China's approach has emboldened unsavoury governments, allowing them to ignore Western calls for reform, safe in the knowledge that Beijing will take up the slack.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Sudan, with its vast oil reserves, is the number one recipient of Chinese investment, and sells some two-thirds of its oil to Beijing. As a result, China has been criticised for its links with a government ostracised by many for its role in the ongoing crisis in Darfur&quot;</span>. </span> </div></div>


Doc .. ???
Please comment ..

[barosa]

Re: Chinese Buliding Palisadoes Highway



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CHEC, described as one of the premier maritime contractors in the world, will among other things, lift the Palisadoes Road six to eight feet higher, construct a boardwalk which can accommodate jogging and an entertainment facility, and run underground power cables from the Harbour View roundabout to the airport.

<span style="font-style: italic">This has got to be the most important part of the whole deal </span>


In addition to protecting the shoreline and the Kingston Harbour, where there will also be additional expansion work, Henry said the long-term view of development of the area is to connect it with the remainder of the highway network across the country and generally expand the business community and the possibilities that exist therein. Henry also stressed the connectivity of the Caribbean Maritime Institute and the Gun Boat area.


Some of these developments include the construction of a four-lane bridge over the Harbour View river, an East coast highway to St Thomas and the development of a cruise ship port for Port Royal. <span style="font-weight: bold">This is to be done in collaboration with Carnival cruise lines, the negotiations for which will be finalised by May 11 this year.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">The deal sounds good! but how long have we been negotiating with them on this part of the deal? It seems &quot;rushed&quot;...</span>


The shoreline rehabilitation and protection project will begin work July 1,2010 and is expected to continue for two years. Henry said this is a signal to the local and international business community that Jamaica is a place for investments.

<span style="font-style: italic">This is badly needed but do we know if this extend eastward along the coast as part of the Palisadoes Rd project? </span>


&quot;It will mean business people can come. It much enhances the whole developmental prospects,&quot; Henry said, arguing that the project would open up &quot;the gateway to match the development of downtown Kingston&quot;.

<span style="font-style: italic">It's left to be seen how much development of downtown Kgn will acrue from this.. Has there ever been a development plan for Downtown tabled by the Govt?</span>


The transfer of knowledge from the Chinese engineers, recognised among the best internationally, to the local workers who will collaborate on the project was also emphasised by the minister as a notable indication of more development prospects.

<span style="font-style: italic">It will only happen if local engineers are brought in early on most of the projects...
</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The project will employ hundreds of Jamaicans, according to Sun Ziyu, Chairman and CEO of CHEC, who said that among the spin-offs of the partnership is that scholarships will be awarded to 10 local engineers to study in China. Jamaica will in turn provide English language training scholarships for selected Chinese participants.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">I guess this is the Prid Quod Quo part of the deal/arrangement.</span>


<span style="font-weight: bold">Henry said this kind of knowledge transfer will be a feature of future partnerships between the countries.</span> </div></div>

________________________

At a time of international deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act: George Orwell