What's up with Fidel ?

**R_C** · 08-30-2010, 12:14 PM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Killing Hope" has long been the book I refer people to when they claim that the United States is a force for good in the world.
All they have to do is read the intro to "Killing Hope" to disprove that claim.</div></div>

JC, for my own part, I don't see the US as being all good or all evil. As with most things in life, the situation is somewhat more nuanced than that. But that is another thread.

In any event, as you seemed to have acknowledged, history is littered with individuals who were either CIA agents or at the very least worked with the CIA, then apparently fell from grace for one reason or another. Some are well known, like Saddam Hussein and Manuel Noriega or more obscure like the Jordanian doctor I mentioned. Can you explain why a different standard has been applied to Bin Laden ?

Thanks

**f0rTyLeGz** · 08-30-2010, 02:39 PM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about this: The Cuban Revolution has existed for about 50 years and in all that time we have never seen anyone from the United States who was willing to debate him face to face.
</div></div>
But wait... I can't say that I have ever seen any leaders of countries debate head to head? Some leaders go to the UN and blow hard for an hour, but open debate on TV between national leaders, that are viewed live by their country hasn't happened... although it would be great TV.

**Wahalla** · 08-30-2010, 02:50 PM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

What constitutes a CIA agent ? any one whos organisation received CIA money.. Then Fidel would be one...

**R_C** · 08-30-2010, 04:01 PM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What constitutes a CIA agent ? any one whos organisation received CIA money.. Then Fidel would be one... </div></div>

Go ninety miles south.

**Derek** · 08-30-2010, 11:38 PM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

Saddam wanted to unite the Arabs and started selling oil in euros. According to an agreement in the 1970s oil is always traded in dollars. If other oil producing companies followed suit, the US economy would have been in serious trouble. Saddam had to be removed.

Noriega was about to spill the beans on George Bush Snr's involvement in Iran/Contra and the cocaine industry. Noriega had to be removed.

But they were STILL CIA. Just like Bin Laden.

**franksterr** · 08-31-2010, 06:54 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Killing Hope" has long been the book I refer people to when they claim that the United States is a force for good in the world.
All they have to do is read the intro to "Killing Hope" to disprove that claim.</div></div>

JC, for my own part, I don't see the US as being all good or all evil. As with most things in life, the situation is somewhat more nuanced than that. But that is another thread.

In any event, as you seemed to have acknowledged, history is littered with individuals who were either CIA agents or at the very least worked with the CIA, then apparently fell from grace for one reason or another. Some are well known, like Saddam Hussein and Manuel Noriega or more obscure like the Jordanian doctor I mentioned. Can you explain why a different standard has been applied to Bin Laden ?

Thanks

</div></div>

Thanks

[/quote]

Allow me to respond so as to clarify what seems to be a misconception on your part, and correct me if I am wrong.

Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega , the Jordanian doctor you mentioned, Bin Laden and Fidel Castro were never agents of the CIA . All of the aforementioned individuals were CIA assets (or operatives).

To be a CIA agent one MUST be a US citizen and maintain a 3.0 GPA and have a Bachelors degree. Along with having completed physical training in CIA operations and techiques. After which you are provided with a badge thats says you are a CIA Agent.

To put it another way CIA agents are employees of the organization and assets are private (free-lance) sub-contractors for hire.

**R_C** · 08-31-2010, 07:13 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Allow me to respond so as to clarify what seems to be a misconception on your part, and correct me if I am wrong.

Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega , the Jordanian doctor you mentioned, Bin Laden and Fidel Castro were never agents of the CIA . All of the aforementioned individuals were CIA assets (or operatives).

To be a CIA agent one MUST be a US citizen and maintain a 3.0 GPA and have a Bachelors degree. Along with having completed physical training in CIA operations and techiques. After which you are provided with a badge thats says you are a CIA Agent.

To put it another way CIA agents are employees of the organization and assets are private (free-lance) sub-contractors for hire. </div></div>

Fair enough. However the context of this discussion is Fidel’s use of the phrase “Bin Laden is a (bought and paid for) CIA agent”. If I may speak for El Commandante for a moment, I think he had a broader definition of the term in mind. eg:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Agent</span>. n. A person authorized by another (principal) to act for or in place of him; one instructed with another’s business. One who represents and acts for another under the contract or relation of agency. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 6th ed., p. 63)

**franksterr** · 08-31-2010, 07:14 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What constitutes a CIA agent ? any one whos organisation received CIA money.. Then Fidel would be one... </div></div>

Not really true.

The confusion is with the informal or colloquial use of the word "agent" which basically means to act for or represent some thing else and the more formal use of the word which is to act in an official capacity (deputized) for a government organization.

**franksterr** · 08-31-2010, 07:20 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Allow me to respond so as to clarify what seems to be a misconception on your part, and correct me if I am wrong.

Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega , the Jordanian doctor you mentioned, Bin Laden and Fidel Castro were never agents of the CIA . All of the aforementioned individuals were CIA assets (or operatives).

To be a CIA agent one MUST be a US citizen and maintain a 3.0 GPA and have a Bachelors degree. Along with having completed physical training in CIA operations and techiques. After which you are provided with a badge thats says you are a CIA Agent.

To put it another way CIA agents are employees of the organization and assets are private (free-lance) sub-contractors for hire. </div></div>

Fair enough. However the context of this discussion is Fidel’s use of the phrase “Bin Laden is a CIA agent”. If I may speak for El Commandante for a moment, I think he had a broader definition of the term in mind. eg:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Agent</span>. n. A person authorized by another (principal) to act for or in place of him; one instructed with another’s business. One who represents and acts for another under the contract or relation of agency. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 6th ed., p. 63)

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you explain why a different standard has been applied to Bin Laden?</div></div>

I was explaining why the "different standard" exist, as per your query.

Fidel was speaking informally. In that context he is right...you wanted to know why the difference hence the formal approach.

**Derek** · 08-31-2010, 07:40 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fidel was speaking informally</div></div>

Indeed.

CIA agent, CIA asset, CIA informant, CIA operative - all look CIA to me.

**R_C** · 08-31-2010, 07:43 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

Actually it doesn’t explain it.

My question has to do with the assertion that once a CIA agent, always a CIA agent. As I pointed out there are many examples that contradict this in history. Given that history, why is it so difficult to imagine that Bin Laden has turned against the agency and the US …as so many other “agents” have done in the past ? What is it that makes him different ?

Thanks

**Derek** · 08-31-2010, 07:46 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually it doesn’t explain it.

My question has to do with the assertion that once a CIA agent, always a CIA agent. As I pointed out there are many examples that contradict this in history. Given that history, why is it so difficult to imagine that Bin Laden has turned against the agency and the US …as so many other “agents” have done in the past ? What is it that makes him different ?

Thanks
</div></div>

Noreiga and Saddam didn't turn against the US. The US turned against them.

Same with Bin Laden.

**johnnycakes** · 08-31-2010, 08:45 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually it doesn’t explain it.

My question has to do with the assertion that once a CIA agent, always a CIA agent. As I pointed out there are many examples that contradict this in history. Given that history, why is it so difficult to imagine that Bin Laden has turned against the agency and the US …as so many other “agents” have done in the past ? What is it that makes him different ?

Thanks
</div></div>

During the Cold War operating under "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" the mujahedin came under the wing of the United States. All the Afghans opposed to the Soviets were trained and supplied by the United States and this included the so-called "freedom fighters" whom today we call al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Once the Soviets were defeated, the U.S. had no more use for the Taliban or al-Qaeda.
They just became the usual ignored ex-clients and then of course after 9/11/2001 they became the targets they are today.

There is no long term loyalty between the CIA and people they find useful overseas.

**johnnycakes** · 08-31-2010, 08:57 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

Rollin_ Calf: JC, for my own part, I don't see the US as being all good or all evil. As with most things in life, the situation is somewhat more nuanced than that. But that is another thread.

RC, Have you read much of Noam Chomsky? How about the two books I mentioned?
How about the articles posted daily at Znet?
Have you read the introduction to "Killing Hope" as I recommended?

How does "nuance" apply to over 50 U.S. invasions and interventions since WWII ?

Can you name a country that has done more killing and damage to the world ?

Please list all or some of the good things done for the world by the United States since WWII that would balance off the tens of millions killed by U.S. foreign policies during that time..

**Derek** · 08-31-2010, 09:10 AM

Re: What's up with Fidel ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">During the Cold War operating under "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" the mujahedin came under the wing of the United States. All the Afghans opposed to the Soviets were trained and supplied by the United States and this included the so-called "freedom fighters" whom today we call al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Once the Soviets were defeated, the U.S. had no more use for the Taliban or al-Qaeda.
They just became the usual ignored ex-clients and then of course after 9/11/2001 they became the targets they are today.

There is no long term loyalty between the CIA and people they find useful overseas.
</div></div>

Well said that man.

What's up with Fidel ?

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