We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

**Tuff Gong** · 12-23-2010, 06:15 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The intent of your every reply it seems is to trace folks who you think are Free Marketers, while repeating, AD NAUSEAM your preconceived cookie cutter, IDIOTIC
notions.
The facts be damned.

Here you are Tuff Gong,
AD NAUSEAM (sic) means to a sickening degree. Less the reasons why you are nauseated, without dealing with the subject matter, it is an ad hominem.

IDIOTIC in most cases need not be explained as to why it is an ad hominem.

"The facts be damned" may or may not be an ad hominem but as with an ad hominem you did not bother to say what facts you were questioning and in effect labeling my post as unfounded. In context with "idiotic" it may be construed as an ad hominem. .
</div></div>

<span style="color: #CC0000">An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man&quot

, also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise</span>
<span style="font-size: 17pt">Would you please point out the so-called ad homiens I used against you?</span>

**britisha** · 12-23-2010, 06:34 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Organizations like the <span style="font-size: 14pt">United Nations</span> and the <span style="font-size: 14pt">World Bank</span> say the practice, if done equitably, could help feed the growing global population by introducing large-scale commercial farming to places without it.</span>

I never have trusted those bastards... </div></div>

....but you trusted Qaddafi?
I am sure the buyers/leasers of these lands means good Libya and other countries needs food and these large tract of largely undeveloped, relatively cheap lands presents a golden opportunity.

The other side of the coin is Africans were destroyed by Cash Crop now another rounds of destruction of lives is set to take place with these huge farms that will produce one or too crops mainly for export.

This crazy, no matter the face of the buyer/lessee! </div></div>

It is crazy...why don't they try this in a country like Nigeria or even Ghana?

they would smash them to smithereens...,,Mali seems "defenseless" when compared to some other African nations and as a result, this land capture can go on..Ethiopia seems vulnerable to this sort of land capture as well....but as wi seh "duppy know who to fritin"...

<span style="font-style: italic">war, war and more tribal war..</span>

**johnnycakes** · 12-23-2010, 07:04 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

Would you please point out the so-called ad homiens I used against you?

Tuff Gong,
I surely will. Just as soon as I find out what an ad homiens (sic) is.

The ad hominem was in calling my post idiotic.

If I am an idiot it has no bearing on the validity of what I posted; that capitalism is investing money to make money which is what the Libyans are doing.
You cannot link the validity of that to the fact that I might be an idiot.

It is arguing off the point of the subject, the validity or lack of validity in the points I made.

**johnnycakes** · 12-23-2010, 07:12 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

"It is crazy...why don't they try this in a country like Nigeria or even Ghana?'

Too far away and Nigerians and Ghanaians are having their natural resources exploited by the big foreign oil companies and the poor get nothing there as well.
The money goes to the people with money.

**Wahalla** · 12-23-2010, 07:23 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

Well Tuffy.. Mr G was named King of Kings for Africa... as there are so many who sees the Negus Negust as the absolute ruler of Africa the man can do what he wants with his land.. devine right of kings and all that !!!

I spent a long time in Libya Was resident there in the Embargo.. (In fact I joined Jamaicans.com while living there!!!!.. wonderful country.. But Green square is not green, nor is it a square!!!! I recall walking down the street and all the doors were green and the walls were white.. I was there as the third way got dismantled.. I was there when every one worked for the goverelent.. and no one was at work as they were all working for the black economy.. I was there during the race riots.. I listened to groan men scream like babies in caserated... I watched as they procucted doctors because of mistake to cover up otehr incompetence..

I recall trying to locate a Ghanians who was imprisioned for being an illegal.. thing is All Africans are well come, but Africans cant work unless they have a visa.. you cant get a visa without having a job...you cant get a job without a visa...

I was there when they kicjed out the tunisaians as there was a friendly dispute... I recall the next morning there was no bread...!!!

I love Leptis Magna, Sabratha... Libyans are the gentlest people on the planet... They were the least corrupt individually.. It is the best place in the world to have a car accident, people will take the injured to hospital...at their own risk... Got rear ended on the road to the airport once.. but that is another story...!!!!

Causing a death can be assuaged by paying blood money and getting forgiveness from the family.... This is in a country that has extremely unique justice system...

.. but there is a disconnect between the propoganda and the reality... I watched as the goverment dis mantled its state insitutions and instituted the renaissance of private business...

I recall the comments when there was money not being available for individuals to get mortages, but the government had trillions of dinar sitting invested in state bonds.. Ra

I watched as a centrally planned economy did not work , that was the third or fourth place I witnessed this...

.. failing schools, (private schools were availabe teachers would work in both)... Failing health care (poorly motivated doctors, families would beg and borrow to get out the country to get care in Tunisia).. Garbage was not collected till they broke the centrally controlled and made it local control...

And to correct this they brought in the Mointor Group to re-institute capitalism....(Funny I was at a lecture there when the Mointor group used Ireland as the success case paradgim that they were responsible for .. while Nicaragua as a failute because it did not follow their prescrition)... They did start a program of mini MBAs for locals to be taught how to run the businesses.. Hell of a thing that...

Poltically the interesting thing was that the oppostion was the son of Mr G!!!!

Aint that some thing.. I would tell a story about the peoples congress the substitute for

oh the price of bread was something else...for 10 cents for about a kilo of bread.. Funny thing when I went there first there was very few resturants.. best in Tripoli was the ship... (best place to eat was at the private fish market in Tripoli near old yani air base... chose your fish and they cooked it for you you miss a nice chianti) But then private resturats exploded on the liberalisation.. I recall the first chinese resturant there.. the w

I loved the place cyan done... Women are pretty, But it is a dry country.. think on this this was teh country of Carthage, Numbians, , Garamates...Libyans have traded and produced wine from before the Eutrcasians became Romans, before Troy I.. To ask them not to do either is like asking a rasta not to smoke weed.. it is possible but it is an anachronism!

Second best oranges in the world!!!

But I dont have video from U tube...!!! I use to travel round Africa from Libya.. interesting case was the air lines..worth looking into as a MBA study . Libyan air lines and 9-99 are rivals ut both are goverment owned..Latter is privately run and is a success the other less so!

Interesting this came out for Mali.. I expected that this would have come out in Zimbabwaye.. where I beleie that land was exchange for oil...

**Tuff Gong** · 12-23-2010, 08:13 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ad hominem was in calling my post idiotic </div></div>

Did I say you were an <span style="font-weight: bold">idiot</span>?

In fact you were the one who introduced to the thread hominem attacks by failing away at what you considered <span style="font-weight: bold">Free Market Thinkers</span> on the Board.

These unnamed Free Marketers are guilty of not kowtowing to your POV.
There is no attempt to <span style="font-weight: bold">discuss</span> the article, just to use your polemic to attack usual enemies.

That my friend is <span style="font-weight: bold">idiotic</span>, the classic <span style="font-weight: bold">ad hominem fallacy</span>!

You also went off on a tangent about Libya and Capitalism, so far you have failed to provide any evidence from the article to prove that this is a Capitalist Free Market Enterprise by Libya.

**Wahalla** · 12-23-2010, 08:20 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

Having recalled the Green book.. there is something in there about the property belonging to those who occupy it...(it is in english, french, Arabic on bill boards at Tripoli Airport...)

Seems Mr G has forgotten his own milieu!

**Tuff Gong** · 12-23-2010, 08:34 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having recalled the Green book.. there is something in there about the property belonging to those who occupy it...(it is in english, french, Arabic on bill boards at Tripoli Airport...)

Seems Mr G has forgotten his own milieu! </div></div>

Seems a lot of things are forgotten in this game!

**Tuff Gong** · 12-23-2010, 08:35 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Tuffy.. Mr G was named King of Kings for Africa... as there are so many who sees the Negus Negust as the absolute ruler of Africa the man can do what he wants with his land.. devine right of kings and all that !!!

I spent a long time in Libya Was resident there in the Embargo.. (In fact I joined Jamaicans.com while living there!!!!.. wonderful country.. But Green square is not green, nor is it a square!!!! I recall walking down the street and all the doors were green and the walls were white.. I was there as the third way got dismantled.. I was there when every one worked for the goverelent.. and no one was at work as they were all working for the black economy.. I was there during the race riots.. I listened to groan men scream like babies in caserated... I watched as they procucted doctors because of mistake to cover up otehr incompetence..

I recall trying to locate a Ghanians who was imprisioned for being an illegal.. thing is All Africans are well come, but Africans cant work unless they have a visa.. you cant get a visa without having a job...you cant get a job without a visa...

I was there when they kicjed out the tunisaians as there was a friendly dispute... I recall the next morning there was no bread...!!!

I love Leptis Magna, Sabratha... Libyans are the gentlest people on the planet... They were the least corrupt individually.. It is the best place in the world to have a car accident, people will take the injured to hospital...at their own risk... Got rear ended on the road to the airport once.. but that is another story...!!!!

Causing a death can be assuaged by paying blood money and getting forgiveness from the family.... This is in a country that has extremely unique justice system...

.. but there is a disconnect between the propoganda and the reality... I watched as the goverment dis mantled its state insitutions and instituted the renaissance of private business...

I recall the comments when there was money not being available for individuals to get mortages, but the government had trillions of dinar sitting invested in state bonds.. Ra

I watched as a centrally planned economy did not work , that was the third or fourth place I witnessed this...

.. failing schools, (private schools were availabe teachers would work in both)... Failing health care (poorly motivated doctors, families would beg and borrow to get out the country to get care in Tunisia).. Garbage was not collected till they broke the centrally controlled and made it local control...

And to correct this they brought in the Mointor Group to re-institute capitalism....(Funny I was at a lecture there when the Mointor group used Ireland as the success case paradgim that they were responsible for .. while Nicaragua as a failute because it did not follow their prescrition)... They did start a program of mini MBAs for locals to be taught how to run the businesses.. Hell of a thing that...

Poltically the interesting thing was that the oppostion was the son of Mr G!!!!

Aint that some thing.. I would tell a story about the peoples congress the substitute for

oh the price of bread was something else...for 10 cents for about a kilo of bread.. Funny thing when I went there first there was very few resturants.. best in Tripoli was the ship... (best place to eat was at the private fish market in Tripoli near old yani air base... chose your fish and they cooked it for you you miss a nice chianti) But then private resturats exploded on the liberalisation.. I recall the first chinese resturant there.. the w

I loved the place cyan done... Women are pretty, But it is a dry country.. think on this this was teh country of Carthage, Numbians, , Garamates...Libyans have traded and produced wine from before the Eutrcasians became Romans, before Troy I.. To ask them not to do either is like asking a rasta not to smoke weed.. it is possible but it is an anachronism!

Second best oranges in the world!!!

But I dont have video from U tube...!!! I use to travel round Africa from Libya.. interesting case was the air lines..worth looking into as a MBA study . Libyan air lines and 9-99 are rivals ut both are goverment owned..Latter is privately run and is a success the other less so!

Interesting this came out for Mali.. I expected that this would have come out in Zimbabwaye.. where I beleie that land was exchange for oil... </div></div>

Thanks for the insight!

**Wahalla** · 12-23-2010, 09:05 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

Have a look at the employment law.. I beleive that it was law 28.. identical number to Bulgeria....I was back there when they relaxed it in 2007.. (Time flys!!!)...

I gotta admit that the NOC are the best negotiators in the oil industry bar none!!!! they have some of the best deals on the planet for their HC....

**Wahalla** · 12-23-2010, 09:11 PM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

there was a story the the Gman was travelling in Kenya and was handing out 100 US dollars... But that has to be propoganda by the BBC...

The Koreans in Magdagascar, the Saudis in Ethopia, the Qataris in Kenya (for the atheletes) Kuwaitis in sudan.. All have rented land to go agricultural...The chinese have sent out farmers as well.. Abu dhabians I cant recall wheere

Now we all heard of the white man expoliting.. and organisations have been condemned.. But who raises voices of this new land rush ???

Doc made a telling point once.. machete cant compete with tractors.. so Land reform is not land distribution.. Always bear this in mind....

**johnnycakes** · 12-24-2010, 09:47 AM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

Originally Posted By: johnnycakes
The ad hominem was in calling my post idiotic

TG:
Did I say you were an idiot?

JC:
If you are saying my statement is idiotic , you are saying that it is something that would be said by an idiot. You're splitting hairs here.

TG:
In fact you were the one who introduced to the thread (ad) hominem attacks by
f(l)ailing away at what you considered Free Market Thinkers on the Board.

JC:
If by flailing you mean I pointed out that while complaining about the free market policies existent in Mali having enabled the Libyans to exploit the poor farmers there while not complaining about the cause of the problem, you are incorrect. I used fact to make my point. You all do support the free market/capitalist economic systems and never complain about it lest heaven forbid, you appear to be agreeing with me.

TG:
These unnamed Free Marketers are guilty of not kowtowing to your POV.

JC:
True and to the point your contentions contradict themselves.

TG:
There is no attempt to discuss the article, just to use your polemic to attack usual enemies.

JC:
My point was and is that while you bemoan what is happening to the farmers in Mali, you consistently support the economic system that allows that to happen.
It is entirely in the context of the subject matter but is a rather uncomfortable fact for you free enterprise supporters to acknowledge, hence your attempt to divert the subject.

TG:
That my friend is idiotic, the classic ad hominem fallacy!

JC:
In your way of thinking perhaps.

TG:
You also went off on a tangent about Libya and Capitalism, so far you have failed to provide any evidence from the article to prove that this is a Capitalist Free Market Enterprise by Libya.

JC:
While there is a possibility the Libyans are in this venture for altruistic reasons, that possibility is so small as to not be worthy of consideration. Were it a humanitarian venture, that fact would be made quite public. As Wahalla pointed out Libya is no longer an Islamic socialist state but is now a capitalist state and not one given to helping the African states that spurned Libya in the past..

_________________________
Missing in Jamaica

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think"
- Adolf Hitler, as quoted by Joachim Fest.

**Tuff Gong** · 12-24-2010, 10:35 AM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TG:
Did I say you were an idiot?

JC:
If you are saying my statement is idiotic , you are saying that it is something that would be said by an idiot. You're splitting hairs here. </div></div>

<span style="font-size: 17pt">Did I say you were an idiot?</span>

**Tuff Gong** · 12-24-2010, 10:41 AM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JC:
If by flailing you mean I pointed out that while complaining about the free market policies existent in Mali having enabled the Libyans to exploit the poor farmers there </div></div>

Not true you claimed Qaddafi was in this for profit. No where in the article has this been suggested.
For you arguments to work it needs a war between Capitalism and Socialism. If you are going to make any claim you must first establish proof .....unless of course you are JC, who can talk a bag a nonsense the clean up after the fact.
list.

**johnnycakes** · 12-24-2010, 10:44 AM

Re: We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

TG:
Did I say you were an idiot?

JC:
If you are saying my statement is idiotic , you are saying that it is something that would be said by an idiot. You're splitting hairs here.

Did I say you were an idiot?

Tuffy,
This is much like the committee asking Bill Clinton if he had sex with Monica Lewinsky.

Clinton's reply was the famous:
"It depends on what you mean by is"

Did you call me an idiot by saying that what I said was idiotic rather than saying it was WRONG or FACTUALLY INCORRECT or ERRONEOUS or NOT TRUE or that it contained ERRORS OF FACT ?
No, you purposely used the word IDIOTIC. I looked the definition up for you:

Idiotic | Define Idiotic at Dictionary.com
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of an idiot. 2. senselessly foolish or stupid: an idiotic remark. .

_______________________

We were told that Qaddafi owns this land.

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