The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Jc, a very interesting article to be sure. I did notice a couple of things:

Words such as “intelligence”, “consciousness” (as in “Maybe we'll scan our consciousnesses into computers”) and “mind”, and phrases such as “superior life-form” are used in a way that presupposes that we know and agree upon what these words mean.

Apodictic assertions such as “old age is an illness like any other” are scattered throughout the article without context, elaboration or any inkling that they are merely opinions and not established scientific fact.

Many many meaningless statements (e.g.<span style="font-style: italic"> “although he's 62 years old from a chronological perspective, he estimates that his biological age is about 20 years younger”</span>) are allowed to stand without any context.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johhnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would guess if that happens then we will find out whether morality as I think, is an extension of logic and intelligence or not.</div></div>

jc, I am searching for evidence that at any time in human history, advances in technology, logic and morality have converged in any significant way. (interestingly, see this statement in the article that would suggest that this is not the trajectory of history: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;There are more than 2,000 robots fighting in Afghanistan alongside the human troops”</span>. Now substitute the words ‘unmanned drone’ for ‘robot and “killing innocent people” for &quot;‘fighting&quot; to desanitize it).

I have no idea what life will be like on earth in 2035 and I could be wrong but I strongly suspect that the Singularitarians don’t know either. But it is fun to speculate. For my own part, I also think that if we have another earthquake that is sufficiently powerful to knock the earth off its current axial tilt to a degree that will send us hurtling towards the sun, all of this will be moot.

By the way, when robots can reverse the creative process and manufacture a human being I’ll become suitably afraid. Until that time gets here I’ll employ my own secret weapon….

[johnnycakes]

Re: Natral, H_O, Derek Check In On This.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can I get the Cliff Notes? I'm tired after a week of work, and relaxing with my vodka. I just can't concentrate now. </div></div>

QueenB,
It's a 4-5 page article Nothing like a book. What the article has to say is in itself a synopsis of all that is involved in this look at the future: some 20 disciplines.

If the fact that I said that it is the most amazing article I've ever read doesn't move you to read now it then perhaps later.

What the article talks about will happen whether you ever know about it or not.

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

I believe that it,s not if,but when technology merges with human biology,it,s a natural progression,especially with man,s preoccupation with immortality,in the absense of a &quot;god&quot; actually coming out the clouds and offering immortality to the good and casting the evil into a pit of fire then it is up to man to create his own brand of immortality.

Merging the human brain with machine seems like a good idea to me, with technology moving at such a rapid pace,modern human has evolved not because we have sat back and allow things to take a natural pace,we have been active in our own development both biologically and technologically,and it is only a matter of time before the two merges,..it is our destiny whether we like it or not.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jc, a very interesting article to be sure. I did notice a couple of things:

Words such as “intelligence”, “consciousness” (as in “Maybe we'll scan our consciousnesses into computers”) and “mind”, and phrases such as “superior life-form” are used in a way that presupposes that we know and agree upon what these words mean.

Apodictic assertions such as “old age is an illness like any other” are scattered throughout the article without context, elaboration or any inkling that they are merely opinions and not established scientific fact.

Many many meaningless statements (e.g.<span style="font-style: italic"> “although he's 62 years old from a chronological perspective, he estimates that his biological age is about 20 years younger”</span>) are allowed to stand without any context.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johhnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would guess if that happens then we will find out whether morality as I think, is an extension of logic and intelligence or not.</div></div>

jc, I am searching for evidence that at any time in human history, advances in technology, logic and morality have converged in any significant way. (interestingly, see this statement in the article that would suggest that this is not the trajectory of history: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;There are more than 2,000 robots fighting in Afghanistan alongside the human troops”</span>. Now substitute the words ‘unmanned drone’ for ‘robot and “killing innocent people” for &quot;‘fighting&quot; to desanitize it).

I have no idea what life will be like on earth in 2035 and I could be wrong but I strongly suspect that the Singularitarians don’t know either. But it is fun to speculate. For my own part, I also think that if we have another earthquake that is sufficiently powerful to knock the earth off its current axial tilt to a degree that will send us hurtling towards the sun, all of this will be moot.

By the way, when robots can reverse the creative process and manufacture a human being I’ll become suitably afraid. Until that time gets here I’ll employ my own secret weapon….



</div></div>


R_C,
Thanks for the feedback. It is said that Kurzweill searches out skeptics and asks them for their doubts on what he predicts and hasn't yet been stumped. He IS a very smart man.
I did a web search on Singularity University and a few other related topics, did a bit bof reading and I found the whole thing very convincing .

As for old age being a disease, well if your body breaks because you ran out of cell renewals it is senescence and not technically a disease but what makes us break down might well be fixable since they've done it with a mouse and that treatment might well be described as treating a disease . Does this fact not render the term apodictic inoperable
I don't find that assertion
As for history not showing convergence of the like Kurzweill describes, we never had a man step on the moon before either. Neither did many ideas and concepts exist before the 20th century.

Knowledge build on knowledge and Kurzweill et al seem dead on in what they have already predicted and there are a lot of very smart people jumping in on this.

That knowledge curve does hold to a pattern and the Singularity seems to work solidly for me when I look it over.

The good part is that the Singularitarians have so many predictions/projections out there publicly that we will see in just a few years a few of them either come to fruition or not.

And as I have already said: It doesn't matter if you believe it or not or even know about it or not because just like some amazing medical and technological advances that have come about and which are already in use, these things will come to pass regardless. IMO too.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that it,s not if,but when technology merges with human biology,it,s a natural progression,especially with man,s preoccupation with immortality,in the absense of a &quot;god&quot; actually coming out the clouds and offering immortality to the good and casting the evil into a pit of fire then it is up to man to create his own brand of immortality.

Merging the human brain with machine seems like a good idea to me, with technology moving at such a rapid pace,modern human has evolved not because we have sat back and allow things to take a natural pace,we have been active in our own development both biologically and technologically,and it is only a matter of time before the two merges,..it is our destiny whether we like it or not.
</div></div>


Natral,
Very well said IMO
I can't for the life of me understand why everybody thinks you're dumb.

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Natral,
Very well said IMO
I can't for the life of me understand why everybody thinks you're dumb.

</div></div>


Lol !,...I dont mind being thought of as dumb,...the people on Jamaicans.com are very very clever folks,if they think I am dumb then I must be dumb,I am just happy to be allowed to engage with people higher up on the super intelligent intellectual ladder,makes me forget how dumb I am,although it,s a bit disappointing to know that it,s everybody that thinks I am dumb,........maybe even derek.
Every now and again they throw me a scrap by calling me into their intelligent conversation,...just to make me feel wanted,I do feel grateful.

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

jc, i agree that aging is not technically a disease. Indeed, your post gives more context to that issue than the article did. In any event, simply saying that it is doesn't make it so, the essence of an apodictic assertion. That was my point.

Having said that, the concept of life extension is interesting to me. Having my consciousness (whatever that may be) scanned into a hard drive less so.

Not sure what a man stepping on the moon has to do with the convergence of logic, technology and morality. Speaking of which, the western world's missile technology, much of it spawned by the very space program you referenced, is about to be deployed against the citizens of Libya, . Where is the logic and morality in that ?.

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. As we speak, for example, the western world's missile technology is about to be deployed against the citizens of Libya, much of it spawned by the very space program you referenced. Where is the logic and morality in that ?. </div></div>

Logic and morality has nothing to do with the advancement of science and technology,much of man,s advancement into science and technology has been motivated by our natural curiosity,that is how we grow,and as we progress more and develop more morality has taken a back seat,hence the controversy surrounding stem cell,and the development of new drugs for emerging diseases like aids,or swine flu,......curiosity=advancement=greed=money.

[queenb]

Re: Natral, H_O, Derek Check In On This.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can I get the Cliff Notes? I'm tired after a week of work, and relaxing with my vodka. I just can't concentrate now. </div></div>

QueenB,
It's a 4-5 page article Nothing like a book. What the article has to say is in itself a synopsis of all that is involved in this look at the future: some 20 disciplines.

If the fact that I said that it is the most amazing article I've ever read doesn't move you to read now it then perhaps later.

What the article talks about will happen whether you ever know about it or not. </div></div>

Johnnyc, mek mi read it when mi sober.

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Agreed.

Singularitarians seem to feel this way however. I guess the thought is that robots powered by AI won't be &quot;evil&quot;.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jc, i agree that aging is not technically a disease. Indeed, your post gives more context to that issue than the article did. In any event, simply saying that it is doesn't make it so, the essence of an apodictic assertion. That was my point.

Having said that, the concept of life extension is interesting to me. Having my consciousness (whatever that may be) scanned into a hard drive less so.

Not sure what a man stepping on the moon has to do with the convergence of logic, technology and morality. Speaking of which, the western world's missile technology, much of it spawned by the very space program you referenced, is about to be deployed against the citizens of Libya, . Where is the logic and morality in that ?. </div></div>


R-C,
My point is that with knowledge and science , knowledge builds on knowledge and things that were never before possible are soon the mundane. So the processes of making what has never before happened, happen is the natural order of things.

The Singularity represents (from what I've read ) the greatest change in the state of humanity since its beginning .

The more I read of this the more certain I become of its eventuality and its widespread effects.
Vernor Vinge a futurist (and also a science fiction writer) has some very interesting insights into this. He' s one of the earliest proponents of the concept of the Singularity .

Try this if you have the time and interest.

http://mindstalk.net/vinge/vinge-sing.html

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. As we speak, for example, the western world's missile technology is about to be deployed against the citizens of Libya, much of it spawned by the very space program you referenced. Where is the logic and morality in that ?. </div></div>

Logic and morality has nothing to do with the advancement of science and technology,much of man,s advancement into science and technology has been motivated by our natural curiosity,that is how we grow,and as we progress more and develop more morality has taken a back seat,hence the controversy surrounding stem cell,and the development of new drugs for emerging diseases like aids,or swine flu,......curiosity=advancement=greed=money.

Whenever you think its time for me to go back to dear kinky,or style and fashion where things are not so taxing on the brain do tell me,I will be happy to slink back out this super intelligent thread,..but thanks for inviting me. </div></div>


Hey Natral,

If you have any other thoughts on this jump in anytime.
You might be interested in this (recommended to R-C as well and all for that matter) ;

http://mindstalk.net/vinge/vinge-sing.html

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed.

Singularitarians seem to feel this way however. I guess the thought is that robots powered by AI won't be &quot;evil&quot;.

</div></div>


R-C,

DO read the Vinge piece I linked for you. it covers the possible hostility of super intelligent machines.

As Arnold said in the Terminator:
&quot;I'll be back&quot; actually: &quot;Ah'll be beck&quot;

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Hey Natral,

If you have any other thoughts on this jump in anytime.
You might be interested in this (recommended to R-C as well and all for that matter) ;
http://mindstalk.net/vinge/vinge-sing.html </div></div>

Gee !.....do you think it,s ok if I stick around you intelligent folks, I dont want to be in the way an'all,...aww shucks you,re too kind J.C.

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

jc, I read the article.

Ok, so Vernor Vinge skirts around the issue of whether the ultraintelligent machines that we are talking about will be capable of making moral judgments. And I'm interested in whether you feel that machines that operate purely on the basis of logic will be able to do so.