The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jc, I read the article.

Ok, so Vernor Vinge skirts around the issue of whether the ultraintelligent machines that we are talking about will be capable of making moral judgments. And I'm interested in whether you feel that machines that operate purely on the basis of logic will be able to do so.


</div></div>

As an Asimov fan I had always thought of super intelligent entities (Asimov's positronic brained robots, the God that people imagine ) to be benevolent as cruelty and disregard for life and other living things tends to be based in ignorance. Respect for all life seems to be a trait I see in the more intelligent people.

Perhaps it's just a gut feeling but that's pretty much how I see it.


It really all depends on whether AI can make that jump from accumulated gadzillions of pieces of information to actual thinking and rationality.


THAT'S the big if. IMO

[johnnycakes]

Re: Natral, H_O, Derek Check In On This.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can I get the Cliff Notes? I'm tired after a week of work, and relaxing with my vodka. I just can't concentrate now. </div></div>

QueenB,
It's a 4-5 page article Nothing like a book. What the article has to say is in itself a synopsis of all that is involved in this look at the future: some 20 disciplines.

If the fact that I said that it is the most amazing article I've ever read doesn't move you to read now it then perhaps later.

What the article talks about will happen whether you ever know about it or not. </div></div>

Johnnyc, mek mi read it when mi sober.

</div></div>


yes queenB,

Get back to us with your thoughts on this if and when you find time and your brain is working at top speed and you're out of the alcoholic fog..

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jc, I read the article.

Ok, so Vernor Vinge skirts around the issue of whether the ultraintelligent machines that we are talking about will be capable of making moral judgments. And I'm interested in whether you feel that machines that operate purely on the basis of logic will be able to do so.


</div></div>

A machine can only output what man inputs into it,......it will only feel and act how and what t it has been programmed to feel,moral judgement is limited by whoever is doing the judgeing,therefore it stands to reason that each machine will make judgements based on who programmed it,.......in any case,not all humans make moral judgements,so why expect it from a machine programmed by man.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

[q
Not sure what a man stepping on the moon has to do with the convergence of logic, technology and morality. Speaking of which, the western world's missile technology, much of it spawned by the very space program you referenced, is about to be deployed against the citizens of Libya, . Where is the logic and morality in that ?. [/quote]


There is no morality in totalitarianism nor in U.S and the neo-colonial foreign policies of the other capitalist countries that have exploited weaker countries.

The Singularity will mean the end to this inhumanity to man if not the end of humanity.

JUST KIDDING on that last part JUST KIDDING!


I sincerely hope.

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Well an ultra intelligent machine, according to the author, will <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;be defined as a machine that can far surpass all the intellectual activities of any any man however clever&quot;.</span>

...presumably that would include the person who programmed it. So that saying &quot; it stands to reason that each machine will make judgments based on who programmed it&quot; would no longer apply.

I think.

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ....cruelty and disregard for life and other living things tends to be based in ignorance.</div></div>

Not according to Darwin.

[neutral]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well an ultra intelligent machine, according to the author, will <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;be defined as a machine that can far surpass all the intellectual activities of any any man however clever&quot;.</span>

...presumably that would include the person who programmed it. So that saying &quot; it stands to reason that each machine will make judgments based on who programmed it&quot; would no longer apply.

I think. </div></div>

I may be dumb as an ox but I do know enough about this subject to tell you this,man will <span style="font-weight: bold">never</span> develop a machine that can surpass a man to such an extent that it develops its own moral compass,.....morality is a human trait,which is based on religion,the difference between good and evil,........lets see a machine work that one out unless influenced by the person who made it.......mi gaan a mi bed an done wid dis.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Natral, R_C,

The top people in the AI field seem to have doubts or rather don't know if a machine intelligence can achieve consciousness.
That has been the subject of many science fiction works and notably The Foundation series by Isaac Asimov .
This is something we won't know until science has gone as far as they can with AI.

Hang around until 2045 and we'll finish this part of the Singularity thread.

[queenb]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Johnnycakes, I have rejoined the world of 'sentient beings'. In my &quot;fog&quot; as you call it, I did recognize Azimov's work. In &quot;Bicentennial Man&quot; a robot morphs into an android as technology advances, then spends the rest of his existence attempting to become human and therefore mortal. There are other works of science fiction that deal with the same premise.

In researching, I found an interesting article which puts forth the premise that the change has already occured, in the form of the corporation. http://www.allartburns.org/2009/07/2...ntient-robots/

[R_C]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang around until 2045 and we'll finish this part of the Singularity thread. </div></div>

Might be best to just go with the blue pill instead.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Johnnycakes, I have rejoined the world of 'sentient beings'. In my &quot;fog&quot; as you call it, I did recognize Azimov's work. In &quot;Bicentennial Man&quot; a robot morphs into an android as technology advances, then spends the rest of his existence attempting to become human and therefore mortal. There are other works of science fiction that deal with the same premise.

In researching, I found an interesting article which puts forth the premise that the change has already occured, in the form of the corporation. http://www.allartburns.org/2009/07/2...ntient-robots/ </div></div>



QueeB,

The corporation holds up as a crude analogy only to the robotic forms that we have seen in some literature and films to date.
They have the foibles and shortcomings of the humans of limited intelligence that create them.

The Singularity is a world apart from that and not at all comparable.

The super intelligence that AI will have in that 40 years or so will most certainly not resemble anything like we've seen or can even imagine at this time.

Personally, I cannot envision any super intelligent being as evil and immoral as corporations are at their base nor for that matter the often bumbling and flawed creations that they have made robots out to be so far.


On the Bicentennial Man, I've read the book ( and a great many other books on intelligent robots), not seen the film but the basic theme was a robot who wished to be human and as a last step to being recognized as human made himself mortal and died.

IMO any super intelligent entity would no more wish to take a step down to human than would a dragonfly go back to the larval state that precedes its flighted one.

The idea being to advance and not regress.

It does seem that most people are trying to relate the Singularity with what has already been done and with things that have been possible with the limited data and intelligence that we have so far put together when, as Kurzweill and others have constantly pointed out, the Singularity will be world changing and nothing at all as simple and easy to grasp as many think they have.

I'm about to order &quot;The Singularity Is Near&quot; to get a deeper understanding of the Singularity and what it will mean for humanity and once I get through it will get back to the topic on some future thread to discuss the many questions that have arisen on the matter.

Of course we all will have to wait quite a bit longer to find out about the possibility of sentient, conscious Artificial Intelligence.

As a related aside for those not wishing to read all ten or twelve/ many of Asimov's Foundation books, in those books in a far future state, the human race is secretly guided through crises and possible annihilation by super intelligent and benevolent robots that are indistinguishable from humans by humans.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang around until 2045 and we'll finish this part of the Singularity thread. </div></div>

Might be best to just go with the blue pill instead.

</div></div>


Sorry R_C,

I don't get the connection between the Matrix and the Singularity.

Illusion vs reality?

[queenb]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

Johnnycakes, I've read all of Asimov's books; the Foundation series was a favorite of mine 30 years ago, along with other books of his and other authors of really good sci-fi. The concept of the 3 Laws of Robotics to me implied a benign robot supremacy, albeit giving humans the feeling of being in charge. I agree that an immortal striving to be human and therefore mortal is a step down in the scheme of things. The problem with this cross-over between man and machine is that there must be a point wherein the human loses his humanity, or the machine joins the sentient and in reality becomes another species to occupy the planet.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queenb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Johnnycakes, I've read all of Asimov's books; the Foundation series was a favorite of mine 30 years ago, along with other books of his and other authors of really good sci-fi. The concept of the 3 Laws of Robotics to me implied a benign robot supremacy, albeit giving humans the feeling of being in charge. I agree that an immortal striving to be human and therefore mortal is a step down in the scheme of things. The problem with this cross-over between man and machine is that there must be a point wherein the human loses his humanity, or the machine joins the sentient and in reality becomes another species to occupy the planet. </div></div>


QueenB,
I would GUESS that a joining of man and AI would create something beyond what we now think of as human with all the inherent limitations of man up until now.

Rather than lose our humanity, we would most likely gain it back.
While I don't believe in the Fall from Grace or the Being Kicked Out of The Garden of Eden stuff I do think that we are evolving and will continue to evolve as a species and become more of what we have long envisioned our gods to be.


As for the future of humanity and technology: I found this interesting:



&quot;It is hard to think of any problem that a superintelligence could not either solve or at least help us solve. Disease, poverty, environmental destruction, unnecessary suffering of all kinds: these are things that a superintelligence equipped with advanced nanotechnology would be capable of eliminating. Additionally, a superintelligence could give us indefinite lifespan, either by stopping and reversing the aging process through the use of nanomedicine, or by offering us the option to upload ourselves. A superintelligence could also create opportunities for us to vastly increase our own intellectual and emotional capabilities, and it could assist us in creating a highly appealing experiential world in which we could live lives devoted to joyful gameplaying, relating to each other, experiencing, personal growth, and to living closer to our ideals.
—NICK BOSTROM, “ETHICAL ISSUES IN ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE,&quot; 2003

Does not this thought truly boggle and at the same time give you hope for a most unimaginably good and fulfilling future for us as a race?

[johnnycakes]

Re: The Most Amazing Article I've Ever Read


The following is an excerpt form &quot;The Singularity Is Near &quot; that explains the difference between linear growth of knowledge which is how most people believe knowledge grows and exponential growth which is the reality.

I will not post the whole book when I get it but I can say that from what I have been able to get of it online, just astounds me and not much astounds me.
What is amazing is the fact that only a relative few people have grasped what is going to happen to the human race in just 35 years or so.

Take the time to understand what Kurzweill is saying here and you can see that the molehill of human knowledge which we have now will grow to a huge mountain in an very short time. This billion fold increase in human knowledge and our ability to interface with it will be only one of the amazing technological advances involved in the coming Singularity that WILL change the world in ways that will seem unbelievable.

It is very tough to sell me on anything and those with whom I have had discussions on a broad range of topics know this. I absolutely believe with my entire being that this 'Singularity&quot; this dramatic change in humanity (for the MUCH better) is indeed very near.

Anyway, try reading and understanding this one point:

&quot;Most long-range forecasts of what is technically feasible in future time periods dramatically underestimate the power of future developments because they are based on what I call the &quot;intuitive linear&quot; view of history rather than the &quot;historical exponential&quot; view. My models show that we are doubling the paradigm-shift rate every decade, as I will discuss in the next chapter.
Thus the twentieth century was gradually speeding up to today's rate of progress; its achievements, therefore, were equivalent to about twenty years of progress at the rate in 2000. We'll make another twenty years of progress in just fourteen years (by 2014), and then do the same again in only seven years. To express this another way, we won't experience one hundred years of technological advance in the twenty-first century; we will witness on the order of twenty thousand years of progress (again, when measured by today's rate of progress), or about one thousand times greater than what was achieved in the twentieth century.&quot;