France Bans Muslim Women from Wearing Burkas

[X]

Re: france bans burka

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot; fast and loose&quot;</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

[mountaingal]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
to me integration means adopting the values of the society taking part in nation building activities. it should not include a dissavowment of my faith (if i have one) or the way i practice my faith.

</div></div>

if the values of the society clash directly with your expression of your faith (note: not your faith, but how u express it), then what has to give way if u are interested in integration? a strict muslim woman who wants to work in mainstream france and wear a burka among other women who find such dress distasteful must make a choice as to what is more important to her. to blame the society for setting parameters that express its values and culture is a bit unfair.

[X]

Re: france bans burka

This is what (I understand that) France has banned..

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
to me integration means adopting the values of the society taking part in nation building activities. it should not include a dissavowment of my faith (if i have one) or the way i practice my faith.

</div></div>

if the values of the society clash directly with your expression of your faith (note: not your faith, but how u express it), then what has to give way if u are interested in integration? a strict muslim woman who wants to work in mainstream france and wear a burka among other women who find such dress distasteful must make a choice as to what is more important to her. to blame the society for setting parameters that express its values and culture is a bit unfair. </div></div>

i can see if that was the case there would have to be more of move toward fitting in in that environment...but that is not the case and that is not what this law was enacted to address. that argument is just a smoke screen for intolerance.

[Blackstar*]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">but what else would integration be or mean? france is what it is, a western society with its own cultural norms. integration into that society would require some negotiaton of one's own beliefs, principles, etc. that may be at odds wth the society. or one can choose to live in a place more accepting of one's beliefs, etc.

i'm not naive enuf to think there isnt some racism inherent in all this. on the other hand, there's also an reaction to muslim fundamentalism, which has challenged the idea of integration in western societies and caused them to look afresh at what it means. which it appears france has done. </span> </div></div>Good points, MGee.

IMO, French people take things too far with Muslims. I've had non-practising Muslim friends go deep into religion after being accused by civil servants of having integrist ties and other foolishness. So needless provocation leads to the very behavior that white people fear - pity they won't learn as this latest law shows.

There is also ingrained sentiment on both sides relating to colonialism, exploitation, etc. that isn't present (so much) with other groups. Caribbean and African people here never have anything to say for themselves while Jews and Chinese keep their own company.

[X]

Re: france bans burka

Well said MGee
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but what else would integration be or mean? france is what it is, a western society with its own cultural norms. integration into that society would require some negotiaton of one's own beliefs, principles, etc. that may be at odds wth the society. or one can choose to live in a place more accepting of one's beliefs, etc.

i'm not naive enuf to think there isnt some racism inherent in all this. on the other hand, there's also an reaction to muslim fundamentalism, which has challenged the idea of integration in western societies and caused them to look afresh at what it means. which it appears france has done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">so this talk about integration driving this is nonsense?</span> </div></div>It's absolute bollocks unless integration equals conforming to a &quot;white&quot;, non-secular standard of behavior. </div></div> </div></div>

[X]

Re: france bans burka

Is it me alone or does &quot;she&quot; (hopefully its a She) looks like the Muslim Halle Berry to you also ?

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

Rich - <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">on this front then</span></span>, would you be, should the French be, tolerant of the strict interpretation of Sharia - of should they be tolerant of it? What of honor killings?

Perhaps this is what the French is trying to head off ... maybe this is what they see coming and don't want ...
<span style="font-style: italic">
(I've no sarcasm here - just asking)</span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
to me integration means adopting the values of the society taking part in nation building activities. it should not include a dissavowment of my faith (if i have one) or the way i practice my faith.

</div></div>

if the values of the society clash directly with your expression of your faith (note: not your faith, but how u express it), then what has to give way if u are interested in integration? a strict muslim woman who wants to work in mainstream france and wear a burka among other women who find such dress distasteful must make a choice as to what is more important to her. to blame the society for setting parameters that express its values and culture is a bit unfair. </div></div>

i can see if that was the case there would have to be more of move toward fitting in in that environment...but that is not the case and that is not what this law was enacted to address. <span style="color: #FF0000">that argument is just a smoke screen for intolerance</span>.

</div></div>

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

pleXXed - you are correct - this is what they've banned.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pleXxed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what (I understand that) France has banned..


</div></div>

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rich - <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">on this front then</span></span>, would you be, should the French be, tolerant of the strict interpretation of Sharia - of should they be tolerant of it? What of honor killings?

</div></div> in my view the sharia thing is another smokescreen...its a big leap to think if we allow them to wear face covers the next thing we have to accept is that we will be living under their laws and will have to accept that they should be able to kill their wives and daughters with impunity.

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

But what's your answer to the question? Should we be tolerant of Sharia?

Yes, I do see that you're saying you feel the Sharia argument is a smokescreen but should we tolerate it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/world/europe/12france.html?_r=1

I was watching the news last night and some the BBC run similar story on many of the protests. Here's a clip showing various protests. I've seen many people, as in the clip here, saying they want Sharia in France. <span style="font-style: italic">(and sharia is not just about killing your wife - that's why I specifically separated the two in my question)

</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rich - <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">on this front then</span></span>, would you be, should the French be, tolerant of the strict interpretation of Sharia - of should they be tolerant of it? What of honor killings?

</div></div> in my view the sharia thing is another smokescreen...its a big leap to think if we allow them to wear face covers the next thing we have to accept is that we will be living under their laws and will have to accept that they should be able to kill their wives and daughters with impunity.
</div></div>

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

Sorry all - I meant to add re the link - toggle down to the video on the left where it says &quot;multi media&quot;.

I'm not saying there's not politics involved in the govt decision - that there's not fear on the table as well - who even knows if it'll be enforceable. That said - I completely understand the wanting to ban that covering. I would ban it as well.

When I was in Saudi Arabia in 1998, I couldn't drink any alcohol and I had to cover my head - there was no option.

I did it.

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

i don't see the sharia question as one of tolerance..are you asking if the laws of the land should be changed to follow sharia then the answer is no... but it sharia practices are not in breach of the laws of the land than there is no reason to worry about them.

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

I see.

[Blackstar*]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps this is what the French is trying to head off ... maybe this is what they see coming and don't want ...
<span style="font-style: italic">
(I've no sarcasm here - just asking)</span> </div></div>Like I said upthread all that &quot;prevention&quot; sometimes pushes non-practitioners towards extreme behaviors.