Support For Obama: Bad For USA

[Wendy]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

Rich ... He is right. We certainly naah goh expect noh betta fram NO republicans Kick Barack out cause who needs a leader for a country anyway..

UNLESS we can get this fellow in the race, then better days will come

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Click to reveal.. <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show me!" onclick="toggle_spoiler(this, 'Yikes, my eyes!', 'Show me!')" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;"> </div></div></div>

[Derek]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like a country with no govt


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm very interested in hearing what they see as the viable alternative. </div></div> </div></div>

like Somalia? </div></div>

Ki ki ki ki ki ki ki ki ki ki

[johnnycakes]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WeNdY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> yes yes that's the way to go

by the way yuh hear seh Couple Somalis send threat to Obama grandmother </div></div>

Dem mussi figet seh im did pap a shat inna wan a dem Pirate yeye laas year
Mek dem gwaan ramp wid im

</div></div>


Yes, WeNdY,

the man is a real badass except when he is facing Republicans or the big corporations then he folds up like a house of cards.

[Derek]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like a country with no govt


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm very interested in hearing what they see as the viable alternative. </div></div> </div></div>

like Somalia? </div></div>

It's the flag waving morons that bug me. Not the government or election itself.
My point is the government, whoever they are, makes no difference to you or I.
So why the excitement?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like a country with no govt


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm very interested in hearing what they see as the viable alternative. </div></div> </div></div>

like Somalia? </div></div>

It's the flag waving morons that bug me. Not the government or election itself.
My point is the government, whoever they are, makes no difference to you or I.
So why the excitement? </div></div>




IMO

I think that a great many people are into totalitarianism; being told what to do instead of looking deeply at what they are told by authority figures and figuring out for themselves where the truth is.

It starts when we're children and are indoctrinated both at school and at home to not question authority. The very first step is religious indoctrination. The kids are fed lies that they are told is the truth: that not believing will get you an eternity of burning in hell. You can't question God.

Then it's the pledge of allegiance, singing God Bless America, the national anthem and being taught to believe that the president is a god and respectable man ; that the leader is not to be questioned nor the policies of the government which, after all know better than we how things should be.

Some people grow out of this mental slavery and a very great many take to it like a schoolboy to pie.

Those with brains see through the hoopla. Those not intelligent or mentally lazy or who are doing really well go along with the ridiculous funny hat, singing, dancing, political campaigns yelling and spouting bumper sticker phrases in support of their candidates with rarely a serious thought as to what frauds the candidates all are and what an enormous fake our &quot;democracy&quot; is.

Some, a great many, WANT to be led by the nose rather than have to do the reading and learning required to come to rational decisions on their own.

When this happens they don't so much choose a candidate but have that choice thrust upon them because the only info they have is what the candidate projects during the campaigns.

Campaigns are nothing but spectacular lying tours and those not adept at seeing the lies, not informed enough to know a lie when they hear it just get sucked into voting against their own interests.

Which gives us frauds like Obama as president.

[jah_yout]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like a country with no govt


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm very interested in hearing what they see as the viable alternative. </div></div> </div></div>

like Somalia? </div></div>

It's the flag waving morons that bug me. Not the government or election itself.
My point is the government, whoever they are, makes no difference to you or I.
So why the excitement? </div></div>

they protect whoever gets them elected- &amp; that's not the people...
how representative are the candidates when a guy who talks or looks too funny does not even have the slightest chance to be elected?
how come looks, diction &amp; religious status--- not to mention money-- are far more important to being elected than actual policies?
how come there is a monopoly by two political parties &amp; no others pose a credible threat?
the people have been made into fools by these guys who run for president to build up their own connection network &amp; ensure big bucks after they return to civilian life

[jah_yout]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you think the sorta healthcare bill dem pass was worth fighting for?</div></div>

&quot;healthcare reform&quot; is a sick joke

it is basically a taxpayer-subsidy for private for-profit insurance companies

[RichD]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you think the sorta healthcare bill dem pass was worth fighting for?</div></div>

&quot;healthcare reform&quot; is a sick joke

it is basically a taxpayer-subsidy for private for-profit insurance companies </div></div>

it help anybody at all other than the insurance companies?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

[
it help anybody at all other than the insurance companies? [/quote]



Yes indeed, the pharmaceutical companies and all other middlemen that come between the billing institution (hospital, doctor, clinic) and the institution making the payment.

Think about it for a moment. There was a huge amount of bribery money spent by groups who stood to lose a great deal of profit were single payer or other real reform to be instituted while the health care debate was still going on.

That's why we got the piece of crap they called health care reform.

Big players, big money run the show.
.

[RichD]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

and nobody else got anything out of it?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and nobody else got anything out of it? </div></div>


The Republicans got some good campaign material for the next election.


&quot;OBAMACARE&quot; is the buzzword.

You can choose what you want it to mean but it is a perjorative term at any rate and a shorthand /bumper sticker way of saying how bad Obama's policies are.

The problem for Obama here is that we on the left agree that his healthcare reform package is less than what is needed so he's caught in the crossfire.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Campaigns are nothing but spectacular lying tours and those not adept at seeing the lies, not informed enough to know a lie when they hear it just get sucked into voting against their own interests.

Which gives us frauds like Obama as president. </div></div>
What country has a better electoral system... one that has survived for centuries? Every two years... elections? What country has created more patents than the U.S.?

Life for people in the U.S. has gotten better over the last 300+ years than in most places in the world. The system may not be perfect, but it has worked better than any other one... ever.

That said, ... I despise most of the people in Congress... Senate and House. I think they are a class, like all of the players, owners, and people that make a living off basketball. However, all of the Senators and Congress people are bought by wealthy businesses and business owners. But I'm not convinced that is a bad thing... they still need our votes. I think that the democratic system will solve the problems we face. Right now we need <span style="font-style: italic">new work</span>... imho.

[mangoskin]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

and you notice more ppl trying to enter US than Cuba....

[lonewolf]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

Anyone agree with the statements below?


<span style="font-weight: bold">If you hit someone and kill their family, they will hate you and probably hit you back in the future. That’s what blowback is all about. It seems like such a simple concept</span>.

They professed that what our military does abroad has no effect on how the citizens of the world feel towards us. Rudy Giuliani in particular believed that the 9/11 terrorists hated our wealth and freedom so intensely that they sacrificed their lives to prove it. <span style="font-weight: bold">(Of course, our government bombing their countries, propping up their dictators and supplying their enemies with money and weapons had nothing to do with it.)</span>
Instead of securing our borders, we’ve been planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression. Within a few short years, we turned Iraq into the world’s leading breeding ground for terrorists. Our military is spread thin all across the planet, yet we remain involved in dangerous power plays that unnecessarily put the lives of our soldiers at risk. And we brazenly squandered the wealth of our nation as if there were no tomorrow.

<span style="font-weight: bold">It doesn’t make any sense unless you consider increasing the profits of the military-industrial complex to be in the “national interest”, no matter what the cost to the rest of us may be</span>.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Support For Obama: Bad For USA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Campaigns are nothing but spectacular lying tours and those not adept at seeing the lies, not informed enough to know a lie when they hear it just get sucked into voting against their own interests.

Which gives us frauds like Obama as president. </div></div>




What country has a better electoral system... one that has survived for centuries? Every two years... elections? What country has created more patents than the U.S.?

Life for people in the U.S. has gotten better over the last 300+ years than in most places in the world. The system may not be perfect, but it has worked better than any other one... ever.

l need our votes. I think that the democratic system will solve the problems we face. Right now we need <span style="font-style: italic">new work</span>... imho. </div></div>



40,

we do not have anything approaching a true democracy. We have what is SUPPOSED be a representative democracy. We are supposed to elect people who represent OUR interests.

This might have been so back a century or two but it certainly is not true now and if you believe that is so you're not in command of the facts.


Here are the facts; I will list them numerically and you tell me which you think are incorrect.

1) all candidates for office are selected by the political parties to which the candidates belong. This is usually a small group of people and they are all members of a group interested in maintaining their power and not necessarily the interests of the people.

In Massachusetts, for instance, that nominating body of people in the Democrat Party who do the nominating number about 180 people. That is in no way democratic. It is totalitarian.

2) Each of the parties absolutely has to get millions of dollars from large corporate donors to run their campaigns. This coming election Obama is figured to raise and spend a billion dollars in his campaign. Those &quot;donations&quot; are no more than legal bribery and the winning candidate knows that if he does not pay back the corporations for those bribes, he will not get any more of their money and his chances of winning without that money is zero. This is demonstrated by Obama's caving in to the banks, large financial corporations, the military-industrial-complex , the healthcare corporations etc etc and not doing what is best for the people

3) A classic axiom is that a well informed populace is necessary for any sort of true democracy. We have to know exactly what our government is up to on everything that affects our lives and the secret machinations, the 16 intelligence agencies working in secret, the top level negotiations between the government and the corporations all are in place to keep us stupendously ignorant of what we all should know.

In addition the corporate media from which we should be able to get reliable info on what our government is doing does exactly the opposite. Most often they present government deceptions as truth without ever questioning those lies . A classic example is the &quot;weapons of mass destruction&quot; lie that started with Bush and which all newspapers and media outlets let pass without investigation . There are countless stories like this that I could bring up and which you SHOULD be aware of.

4) The country is effectively run for the benefit of the wealthy and the large corporations.
Corporations are a dictatorial form whose totalitarian nature filters down to the government which it controls.
We have as little say in how much we will be paid for our labor as we do in the choice of candidates we are presented with at election time

5) We are the richest country in the world for the moment.
The USA is the culmination of capitalism; its highest point and under that system you so admire, we have about a 20% unemployment rate, (much higher in the black population) 25% living in poverty, 40 million who live with what is called food insecurity, 40 million without health care coverage.

6) I agree with you that IF we had a democratic political system and a democratic economic system we could fix things for the average person, the poor.

BUT.....we DO NOT have a democratic political system. Our elected representatives are in the main very wealthy people who are put in office by other wealthy people and corporations. They no more have the interests of the poor and working people than does the mugger in the alley.

We do not have a democratic economic system. Private enterprise is a dictatorship.
At the moment production is the highest ever as it takes fewer people to make the same amount of product and this makes corporate profits very high at the same time so many are out of work and wages have been stagnant since 1985 or so. They are not about to hire more people because they care about the people of the US. THe people at the top are doing very well. If not they are packing up and moving to China or just selling their companies to the Chinese.
THEY are doing just fine.

IMO, you're living in some sort of government approved fantasyland and your understanding of democracy, the U.S government, economics, history needs a lot of work.

I will now waste my time and let you know that ZNET offers information that you need.
As I have discovered most people who think as you do either cannot understand what is to be found at ZNET or reject what they find out of hand because it so conflicts with their core beliefs which, as I have shown above, are based on fictions.

Try reading &quot;A People's History of The United States&quot;; Howard Zinn's seminal work on U.S political development and suppression of dissent, Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman's &quot; Manufacturing Consent&quot; a primer on the manipulation of the public by the corporate media and government under freedom of the press, and ex-CIA William Blum's &quot;Killing Hope&quot;; a fairly comprehensive country by country account of U.S interventions and the corporate interests behind them.

Right now IMO your posts read at a high school level of understanding of political systems and economics and at least in the United States, no public high school could or would teach anything remotely resembling the truth or the true depth of the evils of capitalism nor of the horrible things the U.S has done throughout history to people in this and other countries for their lands and resources. This is what accounts for the abysmally low level of understanding of the government such that we go blissfully and ignorantly into things like the Iraq war and believe that there is no alternative to killer capitalism.



Without a good deal of college at a non-conservative university or considerable reading and study on your own, what you get is what I see in your post and that is a Pollyanna
Principled view of both the economic and political systems in the United States.