Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

I've only heard it (the phrase "double entendre&quot used to refer to sexual (usually) meanings of an ordinary remark. It didn't occur to me to think that this could be one of the mentos which refers to a political situation. And then what about the lyrics which refer to a hog? What could those mean?

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

BTW, SandiF, you might like to know this on the subject of "Waltzing Matilda", if you don't already know (thread drift) "Matilda" referred to a "swag" (the swagman's bag that he carried his possessions in as he travelled around the bush; it came from the fact that "Matilda" or "Mathilda" was a common woman's name in Australia, especially among early German settlers in the 19th century, and obviously it was used in Britain and other countries that were former British colonies.

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

And something else I think may be a possibility-- maybe the title of this song is related to the fact that Mattie seems to be a generic name for a girl in Jamaican folk songs and mento? The songs <span style="font-style: italic">I know, less than other posters of course seem to use the name a lot. </span>

[mountaingal]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

i'd have to hear the music, but my first guess would be that the term &quot;rag&quot; would refer to a style of music similar to or influenced by the syncopated jazz &quot;rags&quot; from america in the early 20th century.

Scott Joplin, the Entertainer

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[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: St_Bess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mumma, mumma dem ketch puppa,
Dem ketch im dung a mango walk.
If a neva run dem woulda ketch mi tu,
So mi sing sweet song and play guitar.

I always thought that the child and her father (Puppa) were stealing mangos in the mango walk and Puppa got caught. The child ran to tell her mother what happened to her father. In the country parts where I am from anywhere lots of mango trees are found they local folks called it mango walk.
</div></div>
St_Bess, I may be wrong about this, but I'd guess that you're from somewhere in the Jamaican countryside originally, and that a common expression in the Jamaican countryside for places full of mango trees is mango walk? Am I right? If so, that means the definition I found of &quot;mango walk&quot; (that it's a mango orchard) isn't off-base?

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

And, MGee, I don't know how to upload video clips, so here is a link to a Louise Bennett recording of &quot;Mattie Rag&quot;. It's scratchy, but you can hear the music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4bFl8vEyg

[Peasie]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Peasie, I think you mean &quot;double meaning&quot;. A &quot;double entendre&quot; means something else, as you may know . </div></div>

This is what I mean:

<span style="font-weight: bold">dou·ble en·ten·dre</span> NOUN
1. sexually ambiguous remark: a remark that is ambiguous and sexually suggestive
2. ambiguity with sexually suggestive meaning: ambiguity in which one meaning is sexually suggestive

Even Wiki has this definition of Mento: The lyrics of mento songs often deal with aspects of everyday life in a light-hearted and humorous way. Many comment on poverty, poor housing and other social issues. <span style="font-weight: bold">Thinly veiled sexual references and innuendo are also common themes</span>. Although the treatment of such subjects in mento is comparatively innocent, their appearance has sometimes been seen as a precursor of the slackness found in modern dancehall.

Go back and listen to more Mento songs and you'll see what I mean.

[Peasie]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, MGee, I don't know how to upload video clips, so here is a link to a Louise Bennett recording of &quot;Mattie Rag&quot;. It's scratchy, but you can hear the music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4bFl8vEyg </div></div>

Despite the title of the YouTube video, Miss Lou is not saying &quot;Mattie Rag&quot; in that song. She's singing &quot;Mattie Gaawn&quot; (Mattie's gone).

Waaii oh Mattie gaawn
Waaii oh Mattie gaawn

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Peasie, I think you mean &quot;double meaning&quot;. A &quot;double entendre&quot; means something else, as you may know . </div></div>

This is what I mean:

<span style="font-weight: bold">dou·ble en·ten·dre</span> NOUN
1. sexually ambiguous remark: a remark that is ambiguous and sexually suggestive
2. ambiguity with sexually suggestive meaning: ambiguity in which one meaning is sexually suggestive

Even Wiki has this definition of Mento: The lyrics of mento songs often deal with aspects of everyday life in a light-hearted and humorous way. Many comment on poverty, poor housing and other social issues. <span style="font-weight: bold">Thinly veiled sexual references and innuendo are also common themes</span>. Although the treatment of such subjects in mento is comparatively innocent, their appearance has sometimes been seen as a precursor of the slackness found in modern dancehall.

Go back and listen to more Mento songs and you'll see what I mean.
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Peasie, I'll take up that suggestion (non-sarcastically). Thanks for posting that definition of mento. I wasn't seeing the whole sentence of the post I was quoting, which was: &quot;<span style="font-style: italic">I find that many Mento songs were filled with double entendres commenting on bedroom or <span style="font-weight: bold">real politics.&quot;</span> </span>. I was focusing on the phrase &quot;real politics&quot; (which I think means politics in the government sense) and (to make make my post clearer) what I meant was <span style="font-style: italic">[that I had never heard the phrase &quot;double entendre&quot; used to refer to political meanings /i]. I thought you were referring to a double entendre as referring to [i]political commentary</span>. BTW, which songs do you suggest I should listen to? I'm open to suggestions .

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, MGee, I don't know how to upload video clips, so here is a link to a Louise Bennett recording of &quot;Mattie Rag&quot;. It's scratchy, but you can hear the music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4bFl8vEyg </div></div>

Despite the title of the YouTube video, Miss Lou is not saying &quot;Mattie Rag&quot; in that song. She's singing &quot;Mattie Gaawn&quot; (Mattie's gone).

Waaii oh Mattie gaawn
Waaii oh Mattie gaawn
</div></div>

So if Miss Lou, if a non-Jamaican is allowed to call her that is singing &quot;mattie gawn&quot;(Mattie's gone) could &quot;Mattie gawn&quot; be a variant chorus of &quot;Mattie Rag&quot;? The verses are the same as those given in the book for &quot;Mattie Rag&quot;.

[SandiF]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

I think you are onto something, Peasie and you are correct that mento songs are usually alluding social issues as well as &quot;big people tings&quot; (relationship betw man and woman). I was trying to think under what terms we may refer to someone as <span style="font-style: italic">hog</span> but came up blank.

[SandiF]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

You weren't off... Mango walk is the same as mango orchard

(Banana walk, orange walk, cane field walk....)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: St_Bess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mumma, mumma dem ketch puppa,
Dem ketch im dung a mango walk.
If a neva run dem woulda ketch mi tu,
So mi sing sweet song and play guitar.

I always thought that the child and her father (Puppa) were stealing mangos in the mango walk and Puppa got caught. The child ran to tell her mother what happened to her father. In the country parts where I am from anywhere lots of mango trees are found they local folks called it mango walk.
</div></div>
St_Bess, I may be wrong about this, but I'd guess that you're from somewhere in the Jamaican countryside originally, and that a common expression in the Jamaican countryside for places full of mango trees is mango walk? Am I right? If so, that means the definition I found of &quot;mango walk&quot; (that it's a mango orchard) isn't off-base? </div></div>

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

So... this song is turning out to be interesting. My take is that it's a conversation between a child-- either boy or girl (the singer) and his/her mother. The child goes to the mango orchard (mango walk- Thank you, SandiF, for the confirmation that I wasn't off) with his/her father, who gets caught doing something. There's obviously a woman called Mattie who was involved in something involving the father and another man, and one of her possessions, a rag, is involved. The father gets asked a question (by the other man), &quot;Whose is this&quot; and replies with &quot;It's Mattie's&quot; and is caught. That could be it. If it's &quot;Mattie gawn&quot;, like in Miss Lou's rendition that means she left, probably because of shame over the fact the narrator's father was caught for whatever the incident in the orchard was.

[SandiF]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

How did you came to this &quot;obvious fact&quot; Morwen?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MorwenEdhelwen1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... this song is turning out to be interesting. The obvious fact is that it's a conversation between a child-- either boy or girl (the singer) and his/her mother. The child goes to the mango orchard (mango walk- Thank you, SandiF, for the confirmation that I wasn't off) with his/her father, who gets caught doing something. There's obviously a woman called Mattie who was involved in something involving the father and another man, and one of her possessions, a rag, is involved. The father gets asked a question (by the other man), &quot;Whose is this&quot; and replies with &quot;It's Mattie's&quot; and is caught. That could be it. If it's &quot;Mattie gawn&quot;, like in Miss Lou's rendition that means she left, probably because of shame over the fact the narrator's father was caught for whatever the incident in the orchard was. </div></div>

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Re: Origin of a song? Mattie Rag

Well, the first line of the song's first verse is [i]&quot;Mumma, mumma, dem ketch puppa&quot; and the last is &quot;Pickney(ie child/children), hear whe yu mumma sey, You betta &quot;tap go mango walk&quot;, but there are different interpretations of that line; one way (for example) could be that it's the singer as an older person warning the children who might be listening to not do what they did in going to the orchard, because &quot;they could have caught me as well, I was lucky they didn't but you might not be&quot; or it's a third-party verse /i][b[/b]. Sorry for saying &quot;obvious fact&quot;- I should have said &quot;opinion&quot;. Now I'm wondering, could that line have another interpretation?