Woodrow Wilson memory

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
witchee mii neva clicked pon diss tredd untill now cah mii knew woodrow wilson wass a racist. still to chatt bout woodrow widdout chatt bout de political power aff de kkk iss shortsighted cah a latt oyinbo politrixxstahs bakk den defended de kkk. de kkk was bigg ann accepted bakk den. image de bigg kkk march pon de capitol ann oww xxert influenced. birth aff de nation ar de histaree aff de kkk </div></div>
See, now, I didn't know there was a connection between WW and the KKK <span style="font-style: italic">BUT</span> if it's true, I would be totally unsurprised. It is completely true that a lot of pols were backed by the KKK (and were members of KKK as well).

It is a little-known fact that the KKK was <span style="font-style: italic">HUGE</span> here in NJ back in the 1920s and 1930s. My father-in-law was damn near lynched twice (being a k*ke) - and he was a very well-known civil rights lawyer (we're talking in North Newark in the '30s)... someone you'd think they'd not want to screw around with! The second time they had my f-i-l, the noose was 'round his neck and they were ready to drive the car out from underneath him - thereby hanging him! - when the local police arrived with my m-i-l, just in the nick of time. My m-i-l was hysterical (literally) and they couldn't calm her down... thereby giving the KKK members enough time to get away. At least, that's how my f-i-l always told me the story. I never knew my m-i-l; she died before I met Mr Witchy.

It's also not very well known that the KKK is still here in NJ.

But, Blakkgiant, do you have any kind of proof that Woodrow Wilson was KKK or was backed by KKK? </div></div>

wicthee mii iss wan aff de few blakk wey read mein kamf ann didd a likkle research pon kkk ann dat sad. more blakks need fe studee dat fe bettar ovatand racism

mii neva read anneeting dat definitelee sed woodrow wass a kkk even dough imm add sum kkk friends

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Dixiecrats Triumphant
The menacing Mr. Wilson

Charles Paul Freund




It was Inauguration Day, and in the judgment of one later historian, &quot;the atmosphere in the nation's capital bore ominous signs for Negroes.&quot; Washington rang with happy Rebel Yells, while bands all over town played 'Dixie.' Indeed, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who swore in the newly elected Southern president, was himself a former member of the Ku Klux Klan. Meanwhile, &quot;an unidentified associate of the new Chief Executive warned that since the South ran the nation, Negroes should expect to be treated as a servile race.&quot; Somebody had even sent the new president a possum, an act supposedly &quot;consonant with Southern tradition.&quot;

This is not an alternate world scenario imagining the results of a Strom Thurmond victory in the 1948 election; it is the real March 4, 1913, the day Woodrow Wilson of Virginia moved into the White House. The details, above and below, are drawn from the work of historian Lawrence J. Friedman, especially 1970's The White Savage: Racial Fantasies in the Postbellum South.

The extended scandal involving Sen. Trent Lott's dismal remarks in honor of Thurmond's 100th birthday, especially Lott's stated regret that Thurmond's segregationist Dixiecrats failed to win the 1948 presidential campaign, have led a number of writers to examine the Dixiecrats' old platform so as to put Lott's statement in perspective. But the whole Dixiecrat enterprise has a historical perspective of its own.

Breakaway segregationist Democrats didn't need to pluck the racist dystopia implicit in their 1948 platform from thin air, nor did they have to base their political hopes on hazy Lost Cause nostalgia and distant antebellum dreams. An openly racist Southern presidency had existed fewer than 30 years earlier: Wilson's. His White House had not only approved of the South's discriminatory practices (many of which were also widespread in the North), it implemented them in the federal government. Had Dixiecrat dreams come true, a Thurmond administration would have revived Woodrow Wilson's racial policies.

Wilson's historical reputation is that of a far-sighted progressive. That role has been assigned to him by historians based on his battle for the League of Nations, and the opposition he faced from isolationist Republicans. Indeed, the adjective &quot;Wilsonian,&quot; still in use, implies a positive if idealistic vision for the extension of justice and democratic values throughout the world. Domestically, however, Wilson was a racist retrograde, one who attempted to engineer the diminution of both justice and democracy for American blacks—who were enjoying little of either to begin with.

Wilson's racist views were hardly a secret. His own published work was peppered with Lost Cause visions of a happy antebellum South. As president of Princeton, he had turned away black applicants, regarding their desire for education to be &quot;unwarranted.&quot; He was elected president because the 1912 campaign featured a third party, Theodore Roosevelt's Bullmoose Party, which drew Republican votes from incumbent William Howard Taft. Wilson won a majority of votes in only one state (Arizona) outside the South.

What Wilson's election meant to the South was &quot;home rule;&quot; that is, license to pursue its racial practices without concern about interference from the federal government. That is exactly what the 1948 Dixiecrats wanted. But &quot;home rule&quot; was only the beginning. Upon taking power in Washington, Wilson and the many other Southerners he brought into his cabinet were disturbed at the way the federal government went about its own business. One legacy of post-Civil War Republican ascendancy was that Washington's large black populace had access to federal jobs, and worked with whites in largely integrated circumstances. Wilson's cabinet put an end to that, bringing Jim Crow to Washington.

Wilson allowed various officials to segregate the toilets, cafeterias, and work areas of their departments. One justification involved health: White government workers had to be protected from contagious diseases, especially venereal diseases, that racists imagined were being spread by blacks. In extreme cases, federal officials built separate structures to house black workers. Most black diplomats were replaced by whites; numerous black federal officials in the South were removed from their posts; the local Washington police force and fire department stopped hiring blacks. Wilson's own view, as he expressed it to intimates, was that federal segregation was an act of kindness. In historian Friedman's paraphrase, &quot;Off by themselves with only a white supervisor, blacks would not be forced out of their jobs by energetic white employees.&quot;

According to Friedman, President Wilson said as much to those appalled blacks who protested his actions. He told one protesting black delegation that &quot;segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen.&quot; When the startled journalist William Monroe Trotter objected, Wilson essentially threw him out of the White House. &quot;Your manner offends me,&quot; Wilson told him. Blacks all over the country complained about Wilson, but the president was unmoved. &quot;If the colored people made a mistake in voting for me,&quot; he told The New York Times in 1914, &quot;they ought to correct it.&quot;

Wilson appears to have perceived his presidency as an opportunity to correct history, and to restore white Americans to unambiguous supremacy. That is apparently the reason he embraced the poisonous message of D.W. Griffith's 1915 film, The Birth of a Nation; it offered a congenial narrative.

Griffith's notorious film portrays the overthrow of debasing black rule in the Reconstructionist South by the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. The film's black characters (most of them white actors in blackface) are either servile or savages; Klan members are represented as both heroic and romantic. The movie was based primarily on The Clansman, a novel written by Thomas Dixon in 1905. Not only was Dixon a personal friend of Wilson's, he had been pushing for a Wilson presidency for years, and Wilson regarded himself as being in Dixon's debt.

Wilson discharged that debt by helping Dixon and Griffith publicize their movie. He arranged for preview screenings for his cabinet, for Congress, and for the Supreme Court, and he gave Dixon and Griffith an endorsement they could exploit. &quot;It is like writing history with lightning,&quot; Wilson said of this KKK celebration, &quot;and my only regret is that it is all so terribly true.&quot; The first half of Wilson's endorsement is still affixed to prints of the film that are screened for film students studying Griffith's advances in editing.

Obviously, Southern hopes that Wilson could force blacks into servility were always delusional. Nevertheless, Wilson's Jim Crow presidency remained an available model for segregationists and supremacists who came later. Thurmond and his fellow Dixiecrats didn't necessarily require a model of triumphalist racism, but the point is that in Wilson they had one. The Lott Affair has been treated as if its origins lie in 1948; they don't. The past isn't dead, said Mississippian William Faulkner. &quot;It's not even the past.&quot; He might have added that the past we attempt to grapple with usually isn't even the real past.


link

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was a complex inteligent man... So an opnion has to reflect this complexity. I have little interest in his domestic policy,(I beleive that he passed some anti racsism laws ) but his forgien policy is of importance... Every one of the greats of the 20th centuary referenced the league of nations and the treaty of versille in which he was a major mover.... And gave thoughts to it.. From the fact that Saudi regime with Wahabism was formed rather than a hassermite kingdom , to German economic policy came out of the treaty of Versilles.. The war in the Balkans all directly.. But It strikes me that we are coming to the end of the impact of the theseevents 100 years ago..Again the concept of the three parts of Libya last year was attributed to the break up of the Ottoman empire again a part of the these events.

The role that Woodrow Willson played was seminal... Again I assumed that this was common knowledge... I mean I mentioned the Treaty of Versilles to my daughter the other day... Even the borders of Iran, Iraq and Saudi comes out of an offshoot of the Versille treaty.. (The UAE being independent as a protectorate of the UK, The british occupation of palistine all were discussed there....)

Read any biography of any major figures of that period and you will see a reference to these events and highly lokey te ame of Wilson is mentioned....

But there is no simple pithfy sound bite to characteise the man.. To reduce him to Birth of a Nation is as detremental to understanding of history as ignoring him...

I mean Whichy u went to his school yet u admit to know little of the mans greatest moves...

And we havent even discussed the Lusitania yet...interestingly why I know so much about him is that he comes up again and again in biographies....

</div></div>

wilson wass an educated white supremacist. wahalla mii xxpekk betta fram yuh

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Blakkgiant, I really wish you'd have come with any source besides Charles Paul Freund or any other Libertarian source. You know I consider Libertarianism to be off the wall and whackadoodle. You really want to make me work, don't you? dwl

Okay, so I'll try to verify the so-called 'facts' you posted from sources other than Libertarian sources (which I don't trust).

Odd how different a portrait of the same man both you and Wahalla paint... I'm not used to such disparity between the two of you. usually the disparity is m ore between Wahalla and me. Or, less often, between you and me, Blakk.
Hmm

This really sets me back on my heels.

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blakkgiant, I really wish you'd have come with any source besides Charles Paul Freund or any other Libertarian source. You know I consider Libertarianism to be off the wall and whackadoodle. You really want to make me work, don't you? dwl

Okay, so I'll try to verify the so-called 'facts' you posted from sources other than Libertarian sources (which I don't trust).

Odd how different a portrait of the same man both you and Wahalla paint... I'm not used to such disparity between the two of you. usually the disparity is m ore between Wahalla and me. Or, less often, between you and me, Blakk.
Hmm

This really sets me back on my heels. </div></div>

yu wood affii read manee books written on de political climate aff dat thyme dem piece tiggethar a pitcha aff wilson. yu kno mii read tings fram manee diffarant perspectives includinn libertarian

witchee wahalla repeatinn wat iss stated inn moas textbook ann deep dunn imm kno oyinbo textbook try fe spin oyinbo supremacee ting. mii way too critical fe textbook varsians. yu realized dat moas textbook doan chatt bout imm influence pon blakk nations (haiti wan xxample), central ann south merikka. da biggar qwestian iss y soo few peeps eva wrote bout imm racist histaree

[Wahalla]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Black Giant...

I have never denied that this man was a rascist.. He was.. To say any thing other would be blatantly untrue..And a white supremacist yes...

But the man was more than a rascist...He did drag the US into a war that it had no interests to defend.... He did come up with concepts that are of importance today...He recognised the economics of reparations which came out of his experience of the post bellum south.. And the need for reconciliations with Germany for european peace...rather than what happened.. He did send troops to the Soviet Union to try and maintain the Russian Monarchy...He did oppose the soviet goverment...(for once I am going to sound like Johhny Cakes.. )

He for instance the league of nations which he envisioned could have been an effective forum to counter the imperialism... But the players he included wanted a weak body to continue woth their empires...(This also suited the soviets as tey wanted to extend their hegmony across central asia)...

Had Woodrow wilson simplu recognised the other groups as a right to exist from the Zionists to the Indians, the Africans, who put their representatives in Paris, he could have countered the European empire postion for a weak league.. .. Why as BS pointed out? Was without a doubt his white supremasit attitude...

He did support for instance the Ethopian entry into the league of Nations, a milk sop to Africans... That was opposed by the Italians....

I have never read a biography of the man.. He and or the treaty of Verssile keeps comes up in histories, biographies and writings of Trotsky, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Hitler, Rastafari, lawrence of Arabia, historu of the house of Saud, history of Iraq, Iran, Garvey, History of world war I, the causes of worldwar II..histrory of the russian civil war, post 1919 history of Africa. Note all these are external to Woodrow Wilson...

A biography of the man will show what he was, not the causal effects of the blow back that he generarted through his diplomasy... It is like reading a biography of Kissinger to get motivations for the vietnamese perspective on the vietnam war..

That he was sick for a long period and was clinical depressed as real people opposed his idealism??...

He is an important figure on the world stage. He was as important in shaping the 20th centuary as the name commonly called. .. And let me reiterate I believe he was a white supremasit.. of the order of Hilter..and .or Stalin

So here it the thing my good pyrothenist.. in 1919 u would have been a member of the UNIA I have no doubt.. who would u see as the the best chance of getting a African led protectorate for South West Africa instead of the south africans, or to oppose the belgiums, british, portugese taking over Tanganika ???? the French taking over Togoland and Kamarun ???

You cannot military see Africans to opposed the industrialised armies ??? (note at the time Africans were dying in the millions from the devasting walk in Hell down the east coast by by Von Vertoer Luttow ... Who at the table in France as tey are abpit to split africa would u see as a potential ally ???

The treaty of Versille was as much responsible for the shape of Africa than the congress of Berlin.. yet thsi is realy discussed... And again unlike the treaty of Berlin there were african knocking at the door... The british, Japanese, South Africans, Dutch, Spanish, Potugese frecnh, beguams are only interested in taking over the german colonies (Both West and East) and the colonies in Asia . The Italians wanted to get Libya and for a protectorate on Ethopia.. This was the maelstrom that was happening.. The Chinese were concerned about Japanese and european hegmony, the south americans well they were enjoying being countered by all and were a set of even more rascists than hitler.... And all Eurpoeans were scared by the soviet threat.. (The Cezhs had the largest standing army in Russia at the time)

Garvey saw his best hope as the Yanki delegation initally led by a white supremasit President Wilson..

History is forgien, economic, social policies from yesterday...so in 1918 the US was the most powerful nation on earth simply,,,

It strikes me that the so called purveyors of black history month should write a history on the effects on black liberation of hte paris and versilles peace conference in the libberation struggle.. but htey wont find a hero there....

I just dont think we can simply dismiss Woodrow wilson as a rascist who was described as a historical advisors on birth of a Nation, was sick and led tot the US 25th constitutional ammendment..What he did had huge rammifications internationally. (interesting the 25th ammendment is worded in such a way that mental incapacity can be taked into accont)

And now while I concentrated on his big picture africa europe asia stuff I did not even go down the road of the US armed interventions in Nicaragua, Haiti, Panama, Dom Rep, Honduras, Guetemala, Mexico Cuba under his administration...(Again have a read of Augusto Calderon Cesar Sandino biography to see who he was...)...

All over the years woodrwo wilson comes up again and again...

A mean.. he is mentioned in the biography of Cardinal Peceli .. Pope Pius...

But u all know I am a sell out.. stupid and an idiot!

[Blackstar*]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But u all know I am a sell out.. stupid and an idiot! </div></div>Oh, stop it, Wahalla! You are none of those labels. Anyone who says you are will get a from me.

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Black Giant...

I have never denied that this man was a rascist.. He was.. To say any thing other would be blatantly untrue..And a white supremacist yes...

But the man was more than a rascist...He did drag the US into a war that it had no interests to defend.... He did come up with concepts that are of importance today...He recognised the economics of reparations which came out of his experience of the post bellum south.. And the need for reconciliations with Germany for european peace...rather than what happened.. He did send troops to the Soviet Union to try and maintain the Russian Monarchy...He did oppose the soviet goverment...(for once I am going to sound like Johhny Cakes.. )

</div></div>

wahalla yu sed a latt so mii aggoo tri fi anwsar moas aff itt by tekkinn itt piece bye peace. diss a wan aff dem nyam aalf leff aalf tredd

mii knoo dat no intelligent person wood deny dat woodrow wilson wass a racist ar sum aff imm racist policies. so iff mii made itt seems like dat mii badd. still de pint dat mii raises iss dat sum peeps use cantext fe xxplain ann minimize racism ann mii felt dat wat yu ar doinn. like wen yu sed imm more dan a racist. still doan figgit mii awlways argue dat awl oyinbo ar racist

ear iss a man wey run pon isolationist policee ann keepinn de us outta war den wen imm winn de election imm quicklee change imm mind. iss de revelant concept yu chattinn bout iss mekkinn de wurld safe fe democracy dat still beinn used tidday fe justify? economics aff reparation, ar yu chattinn bout de establishment aff de fed reserve ann de 16 amendment? mii wass waitinn fe see iff witchee realized dat y libertarian critique wilson soo much. issn't dat eecoonomic aff reparation yu chattinn bout iss wat manee historians blame fe startinn ww2 cah itt impoverished germanee? imagine firinn blakk guv employees ann impoverishinn blakk blakk peeps de legacee aff slaveree fe keep blakk inna servile position ann imm ovatan de eecoonomic aff reparation

wen yu chatt bout maintainn monarchy, isn't wat a latt aff de new borders yu were chattinn bout earlier wass bout

[Wahalla]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Woodrow Wilson is an important figure in the 20th centuary histry… That is my premis. I don’t minimise his rascism and I think I demonstrated that had he not been a racist, he could have pulled off one of the greatest step forwards for human kind in terms of rights. However he was limited by his white supremacist when

The man was an international idealist who granted the greater idealism to the victors…
Look I lied when I said I don’t know some of his domestic policies..
If u look at the history of Unions in the united states, the union strength increased in his administration.. During the first campaign it was the first time that the enfranchised African American abandoned the Repupblicna party for the democrats…

And yes he dwas anti war then entered the war in his second term…And he abandoned the black vote that he hinted at in his fist campaign.. look at what Garvey thought of that election is instructive.. But the diference between the first asn second campaign showed that he was a politician and not simply a idealist…. He was an idealist where international relation were concerned and he was out manoeuvred by pragmatists… And he could not see the way to win was to enfranchise those whom would have joined him in common cause!
I have maintained that the concept of a single whiteness is not the case as Wilson was pro British and and Anti German…. That is so contradictory given that the close family and friendship ties between both their royal families…
Yes sir, reparations was imposed on Germany and this is what most ascribe to the rise of Hiltler…

Wilson argued against it and used the post bellum south as an example

Look he was for the break up of the Austro Hungerian empire who were the cause of the WWI… And the destruction of the German Monarchy.. Yet he supported the whites that is the Tsarist forces in the Russian Civil war against the Bolsheviks and he did so with Yanki troops in Vladivostock… (along with British, Japanese, French and I believe some german troops) If Johnny was here he would give u a dirge of propaganda of the anti soviet conspiracy by the capitalist..

As contradictory as this may seem Wilson I believe that his entry into WWI was of benefit to us.. Had the Germans won what would have happened to Africa ???? A take over of the Kenya and Uganda from Tanganika and Burundi ??? Take over Nigeria from Kamarun ? And what of Jamaica ? Would we have been handed to the Yankis by the british, who would have exported teir poor whites ot take over land..?????
Again I warn against looking at this man from a yanki perspective but from an internationalist ..

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
wahalla yu sed a latt so mii aggoo tri fi anwsar moas aff itt by tekkinn itt piece bye peace. diss a wan aff dem nyam aalf leff aalf tredd</div></div>
I'm not Wahalla... but this sure did turn out to be a eat half/leave half thread! Good God!!
I had <span style="font-style: italic">NO IDEA</span>!!!

The next time I think, &quot;Gee... this might be an interesting topic of conversation to engage Blakkgiant...&quot; ----- smaddy smack me uspide my head!!!
No - not really! It <span style="font-style: italic">IS INDEED</span> a great topic of discussison, so far, and I - for one - am learning <span style="font-weight: bold">a whole lot</span>!!



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
economics aff reparation, ar yu chattinn bout de establishment aff de fed reserve ann de 16 amendment? mii wass waitinn fe see iff witchee realized dat y libertarian critique wilson soo much. </div></div>
I understood/understand why Libertarians bash on Wilson so much - yes... I understand what Libertarianism is about, Blakk... I just think it unworkable, and them nutballs, that's all. IMO, Libertarians are about as nutty as conspiracy theorists - unbalanced in their reasoning (or lack thereof, to be more precise), with no real grasp of how things actually work in reality - as opposed to in theory or dreams. I'm not saying that Libertarians don't have nice dreams, just that they are merely that - dreams. I prefer to deal with reality. And I prefer my politicians to deal in reality, as well.

I don't see the connection between reparations and income taxes, however... you've lost me in that leap. Please explain that?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
issn't dat eecoonomic aff reparation yu chattinn bout iss wat manee historians blame fe startinn ww2 cah itt impoverished germanee?</div></div>
Yes, the extremely heavy economic reparations forced upon Germany post WWI did indeed lead directly to the rise of Hitler and to WWII.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
imagine firinn blakk guv employees ann impoverishinn blakk blakk peeps de legacee aff slaveree fe keep blakk inna servile position ann imm ovatan de eecoonomic aff reparation </div></div>
Well, that ^ boggled <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> mind!
<span style="font-style: italic">HOW</span> could a man who came out of the American post-Civil War Reconstruction South... who suffered under the carpetbaggers... who grew up so overly sensitive as to comprehend the Germans' national collective need for kinder terms than the Treaty of Versailles provided for,... be so damn blind to the barebones basic needs (economic and humane) of American blacks??!!!

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Woodrow Wilson: An extremely complex man.


This appears to be the only recent biography out there on Woodrow Wilson!

It's $30... Even on Amazon.com.

Unnu know what I want for Christmas... <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Woodrow Wilson: A Biography</span> by John Milton Cooper Jr.</span> -sigh-


Guess I'll have to wait to save my money. I'm passing the hat. Should I start a FundRazr account so unnu can donate a dollar apiece to my book fund, enabling me in my quest to learn more about Woodrow Wilson?


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">ETA: Never mind. Found a copy used in &quot;Like New condition&quot; for $5.50 from an Amazon.com used book seller I've bought from happily several times in the past. So add the $3.99 shipping for a $9.50 total for a hardback book in &quot;Like New&quot; condition! (as opposed to $30) I'm happy. It should arrive mid- to late-next week! </span></span>

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
wahalla yu sed a latt so mii aggoo tri fi anwsar moas aff itt by tekkinn itt piece bye peace. diss a wan aff dem nyam aalf leff aalf tredd</div></div>
I'm not Wahalla... but this sure did turn out to be a eat half/leave half thread! Good God!!
I had <span style="font-style: italic">NO IDEA</span>!!!

The next time I think, &quot;Gee... this might be an interesting topic of conversation to engage Blakkgiant...&quot; ----- smaddy smack me uspide my head!!!
No - not really! It <span style="font-style: italic">IS INDEED</span> a great topic of discussison, so far, and I - for one - am learning <span style="font-weight: bold">a whole lot</span>!!



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
economics aff reparation, ar yu chattinn bout de establishment aff de fed reserve ann de 16 amendment? mii wass waitinn fe see iff witchee realized dat y libertarian critique wilson soo much. </div></div>
I understood/understand why Libertarians bash on Wilson so much - yes... I understand what Libertarianism is about, Blakk... I just think it unworkable, and them nutballs, that's all. IMO, Libertarians are about as nutty as conspiracy theorists - unbalanced in their reasoning (or lack thereof, to be more precise), with no real grasp of how things actually work in reality - as opposed to in theory or dreams. I'm not saying that Libertarians don't have nice dreams, just that they are merely that - dreams. I prefer to deal with reality. And I prefer my politicians to deal in reality, as well.

I don't see the connection between reparations and income taxes, however... you've lost me in that leap. Please explain that?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
issn't dat eecoonomic aff reparation yu chattinn bout iss wat manee historians blame fe startinn ww2 cah itt impoverished germanee?</div></div>
Yes, the extremely heavy economic reparations forced upon Germany post WWI did indeed lead directly to the rise of Hitler and to WWII.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
imagine firinn blakk guv employees ann impoverishinn blakk blakk peeps de legacee aff slaveree fe keep blakk inna servile position ann imm ovatan de eecoonomic aff reparation </div></div>
Well, that ^ boggled <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> mind!
<span style="font-style: italic">HOW</span> could a man who came out of the American post-Civil War Reconstruction South... who suffered under the carpetbaggers... who grew up so overly sensitive as to comprehend the Germans' national collective need for kinder terms than the Treaty of Versailles provided for,... be so damn blind to the barebones basic needs (economic and humane) of American blacks??!!!

</div></div>

wichee nyam aalf leff aff ting iss bout touchinn pon sintinn butt natt indept. dat y richd sumthyme ask mii fii xxpand even iff mii doan do dat awl de thyme. libartarian ave issue widd de cration aff de fed reserve ann de powah fe tax ann dat y dem xxpose woodrow wilson negativities. yu chattinn bout libatarians ar idealist ann natt pragmatists butt dat de same fiction dem sey bout wilson.

de eecyaannyamikk aff reparation joke iss dat dem oyinbo historians bawl bout oww dem impoversihed germany. oyinbo chatt fe tekkinn germany colonies dat enrich germanee at de xxpense aff de impoverishinn colonied peeps wass a badd ting. itt bout de racist locateshan aff oyinbo

suffered under carpetbaggers wat name so. realitee iss dat oyinbo slave owners were upset dat individual cood natt legallee owned enslaved afrikkan peeps as chattel. dem were upset dat dem lost dem human assets widdout reimbursement. so wat yuh seyinn cumminn fran dat background imm shood ave bettar ovatand germany losinn dem colonies ann colonized peeps.

witchee wilson wass a pragmatist ann ovatand dat imm wass elected to strenghten de empire inn represent ann wan way fe do itt wass bye weakeninn imm german competitor ann dat wat imm.

[blugiant]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Editorial Letter by Marcus Garvey in the Negro World
[[Newport News, Va., July 4, 1919]]

Fellowmen of the Negro Race:
Greeting:—Once more peace has been restored to the world, and to-day more than ever, men are thinking of the future. To me I can foresee a future of commercial rivalry that will again end in war. Commerce is the basic strength of all nations and peoples, and, as in the past, Germans, Austrians, Russians, English, French, Americans, and Japanese are sharpening their commercial sword for the coming conflict.
I am exhorting the Negro peoples of the world to prepare for and enter into the titanic struggle for the survival of the fittest in the spheres of commerce and industry. Let every Negro man, woman and child get ready. The race of life is indeed a serious one, and no Negro can afford to allow the white man of America or Europe nor the yellow man of Asia to outdistance him in the race of life.
All Negroes should now start out to invest their money in sound and promising Negro enterprises. We have to build ships, railroads, banks, factories and plants of all kinds. To compete with the white man means that we must be equipped to take care of ourselves 100 per cent. America must be made safe for the Negro by the Negro becoming an industrial and political power; the West Indies must be dominated by Negroes because they form 98 per cent. of the population; Africa must be restored to the Negro as the haven of refuge when we need maternal shelter; the world must be made safe for the race. To bring about these changes means that we have to do some hard work, and the time for beginning is right now.
Wilson,[1] Clemenceau,[2] Orlando,[3] David Lloyd George[4] and the rest have signed the treaty of peace, but it is a peace for a certain class of white men; black men have nothing to do with this thing, for black men are not yet free. There can be no abiding peace until all men are free, so I ask that all Negroes prepare now for the next world war, twenty, thirty or forty years hence.
To-day the Universal Negro Improvement Association of the World presents you with the &quot;Black Star Line, Inc.&quot; This corporation is now selling 500,000 dollars of common stock at 5.00 dollars per share to each and every Negro who feels that the race should own a line of merchant vessels. I am asking every man, woman and child of the race to buy as many shares as possible in this corporation so as to enable them to float the black star line on the 31st of October.
Now is the time for all true race patriots to invest in a live and promising business proposition, backed by the strength of the Universal Negro Improvement Association all over the world.
The people of Newport News, Va., last Sunday rallied to the cause of the Universal Negro Improvement Association and to the &quot;Black Star Line,&quot; and I want every branch of the Association and every Negro to support this gigantic move and thereby herald in a new era of prosperity. With very best wishes. Yours fraternally,
Marcus Garvey


..

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
wahalla yu sed a latt so mii aggoo tri fi anwsar moas aff itt by tekkinn itt piece bye peace. diss a wan aff dem nyam aalf leff aalf tredd</div></div>
I'm not Wahalla... but this sure did turn out to be a eat half/leave half thread! Good God!!
I had <span style="font-style: italic">NO IDEA</span>!!!

The next time I think, &quot;Gee... this might be an interesting topic of conversation to engage Blakkgiant...&quot; ----- smaddy smack me uspide my head!!!
No - not really! It <span style="font-style: italic">IS INDEED</span> a great topic of discussison, so far, and I - for one - am learning <span style="font-weight: bold">a whole lot</span>!!



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
economics aff reparation, ar yu chattinn bout de establishment aff de fed reserve ann de 16 amendment? mii wass waitinn fe see iff witchee realized dat y libertarian critique wilson soo much. </div></div>
I understood/understand why Libertarians bash on Wilson so much - yes... I understand what Libertarianism is about, Blakk... I just think it unworkable, and them nutballs, that's all. IMO, Libertarians are about as nutty as conspiracy theorists - unbalanced in their reasoning (or lack thereof, to be more precise), with no real grasp of how things actually work in reality - as opposed to in theory or dreams. I'm not saying that Libertarians don't have nice dreams, just that they are merely that - dreams. I prefer to deal with reality. And I prefer my politicians to deal in reality, as well.

I don't see the connection between reparations and income taxes, however... you've lost me in that leap. Please explain that?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
issn't dat eecoonomic aff reparation yu chattinn bout iss wat manee historians blame fe startinn ww2 cah itt impoverished germanee?</div></div>
Yes, the extremely heavy economic reparations forced upon Germany post WWI did indeed lead directly to the rise of Hitler and to WWII.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
imagine firinn blakk guv employees ann impoverishinn blakk blakk peeps de legacee aff slaveree fe keep blakk inna servile position ann imm ovatan de eecoonomic aff reparation </div></div>
Well, that ^ boggled <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> mind!
<span style="font-style: italic">HOW</span> could a man who came out of the American post-Civil War Reconstruction South... who suffered under the carpetbaggers... who grew up so overly sensitive as to comprehend the Germans' national collective need for kinder terms than the Treaty of Versailles provided for,... be so damn blind to the barebones basic needs (economic and humane) of American blacks??!!!

</div></div>

wichee nyam aalf leff aff ting iss bout touchinn pon sintinn butt natt indept. dat y richd sumthyme ask mii fii xxpand even iff mii doan do dat awl de thyme. libartarian ave issue widd de cration aff de fed reserve ann de powah fe tax ann dat y dem xxpose woodrow wilson negativities. yu chattinn bout libatarians ar idealist ann natt pragmatists butt dat de same fiction dem sey bout wilson.

de eecyaannyamikk aff reparation joke iss dat dem oyinbo historians bawl bout oww dem impoversihed germany. oyinbo chatt fe tekkinn germany colonies dat enrich germanee at de xxpense aff de impoverishinn colonied peeps wass a badd ting. itt bout de racist locateshan aff oyinbo

suffered under carpetbaggers wat name so. realitee iss dat oyinbo slave owners were upset dat individual cood natt legallee owned enslaved afrikkan peeps as chattel. dem were upset dat dem lost dem human assets widdout reimbursement. so wat yuh seyinn cumminn fran dat background imm shood ave bettar ovatand germany losinn dem colonies ann colonized peeps.

witchee wilson wass a pragmatist ann ovatand dat imm wass elected to strenghten de empire inn represent ann wan way fe do itt wass bye weakeninn imm german competitor ann dat wat imm. </div></div>
Okay... I read this, but I'll need to read it a few more times, later. (no time right now)
I need to check a few things, also, while re-reading it.

I hadn't actually fully understood ALL of the ramifications of what I said when I said it. But now that you're saying it, it sounds, prima facie (on the face of it) to be 'right'.

If this ^ is all factual, accurate, and true..... then I might actually need to re-think my entire stance on reparations. And you know damn well, from past discussions, how I feel (or felt?) about that: that reparations were, by and large, B-S, if, by 'reparations', one meant monetary... NOW you're really shaking me up, blakkgiant! (NO easy task, I might add!)

I hope like hell that the sky doesn't fall down.


<span style="font-weight: bold">I now also need to make another embarrassing admission along the same degree/lines as my original Dunno-much-about-Woodrow-Wilson admission</span>: (and this is really gonna smart/sting, especially here on J'com - *wincing badly*) Marcus Garvey is really little more to me than just a name. I know darn little about him. About all I do know about him, in fact, is that he was an ancient Jamaican leader that is pretty universally revered. I now need to study up on Garvey, too, obviously... <span style="font-weight: bold">PLEASE DON'T STONE ME!!!</span>

Mr Witchy just came home. I have to go now. When I come back online later, I will read that letter of Mr Garvey's, Blakkgiant... and perhaps you will post some books and/or websites where I can now go learn about Marcus Garvey. I never knew I had a reason to know anything about Mr Garvey before. So far as I knew, nothing about him ever touched, or made a difference to, my life... but this entire thread just flushed that belief right down the proverbial toilet. (perhaps where it belonged in the first place anyhow)

Whew. This is becoming one of the singular most embarrassing and humiliating things of my life. I really am not stupid. I really am (supposedly) educated. I really am (supposedly) not prejudiced. I really am beginning to question everything about myself, right about now... it's an extremely uncomfortable place to be... and in this case, it's awfully public!

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Woodrow Wilson memory

Okay. So the biography I just bought on Woodrow Wilson just arrived yesterday.

Blakkgiant (or Wahalla, or anyone else): Care to recommend a good biography of Marcus Garvey, please?
Thanks.