The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

[jedi]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

After reading your last post CEW I am tempted to and I am going to ask you to please clarify what it is your really mean here. Please give clear examples of what you mean by saying that:

I often compare that with some Christian females who seem to have a "leave everything in God's hand" approach that suggests an abdication of responsibility for doing their part in the accomplishment of any goals and objectives. It reminds me of Luke 16:8b: "...for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

Furthermore please observe this statement by you:

As stated at the onset, none of the Christian males mentioned had any desire to be with / date the non-Christian they admired.

Observe in particular the word admired . Admiration comes from the heart from whence also comes desire. Need I say more or qoute a familiar scripture on the subject of desire. Sorry I am not buying that line about not desiring, simply because admiration leads to desire. But again please humor me and explain what it is you really mean here.

[mountaingal]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

CEW, maybe I would understand you better if you give an example of a Christian woman who has it all together, and to whom you would be attracted. What would such a woman be like, compared to her sisters who leave major decisions to God?

It still seems to me that you have women of whatever persuasion who are doing their thing and who are not. I'm not seeing where the faith is the reason for them not doing their thing - because this happens with people who are NOT Christian.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Jedi: You have a right to your points of views as reflected in your entire response, but your indignation is misplaced. I am not at all surprised that a Christian woman take the ostrich-like approach and bury her head in the sand - so to speak, placing the blame on the Christian male's lack of appreciation for her. It is that kind of an attitude that I personally find offensive. Instead of trying to raise the bar somewhat, as against sitting around waiting on God to do for them what they should be doing for themselves, they cry foul when some Christian brothers require more of a sister than just a face, and someone who shows up in church on Sundays. What is so wrong with Christian brothers raising the bar with realisitic expectations?

It is ironic that you choose to zero in on the issue of sisters approaching brothers, but totally ignore the thinking that it would seem not enough of them - especially singles - even take the opportunity to further educate themselves. It is true that some of them are, and I am extremely proud of their forward thinking, but how many of them are simply waiting for a brother to show up with his assets - which for some of these ladies *are* a prerequisite? By no means am I painting Christian women with a broad brush, but to deny that something is wrong with the way some of them perceive things is not helping anyone either.

Have you ever listened to say a Juanita Bynum teaching at a women's conference? The issues she boldly addresses are things that some religious women would be offended at, but until Christian women realize first and foremost that marriage is a ministry, and there are requirements for it other than body parts, and that it is possible for them to experience a certain level of independence through education and other non-compromising opportunities, the Christian male will take note of the difference with their non-Christian counterparts.

To imply that a Christian man admires a non-Christain woman because he is motivated by other desires is asinine. Personally I could *not* date a non-Christian, yet there are many that I do admire for a number of reasons.

Go ahead have a heart for your Christian sisters, the load is heavy that they have to carry. Remember they carry the cross of Christ which has many requirements not to mention the burden of their gender coupled with the color of their skin.

I think you do Christian women a tremendous disservice with that thinking. First and foremost, Christianity is *not* a burden that handicaps her and to suggest that the color of her skin is a factor in this thread is offensive. When someone is going to tell me she needs to pray about the color of the car she is going to buy, I am sorry, but I do not find that admirable.

[Tropicana]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

I am not at all surprised that a Christian woman take the ostrich-like approach and bury her head in the sand

Careful CEW, you're beginning to sound too much like me. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[DC]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Originally posted by CEW:
What is so wrong with Christian brothers raising the bar with realisitic expectations?

I don't find anything wrong with that.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Originally posted by mountaingal:
...CEW, maybe I would understand you better if you give an example of a Christian woman who has it all together, and to whom you would be attracted.

In its simplest form, someone who recognizes that she owes it to herself and her God to be the best she can be in all areas, and is willing to do whatever it takes to be those things.

What would such a woman be like, compared to her sisters who leave major decisions to God?

Leaving "major decisions to God" is not the issue here. Then again, even with major decisions directions are often in the Word, so she gets them, then go out and do what she has to do. In Christian doctrine, we already know certain things from the Word: God wants us well; whole; prosperous; good stewards of our money, time, and relationships; to name a few. With this knowledge, the Christian woman is now expected to do whatever is necessary, with God's help, to "walk" in those things. In other words, it is no longer just a matter of faith, but a matter of adding to that faith: virtue, knowledge, and the other things the Bible speaks of.

It still seems to me that you have women of whatever persuasion who are doing their thing and who are not. I'm not seeing where the faith is the reason for them not doing their thing - because this happens with people who are NOT Christian.

We are talking about the Christians who are not, yet who expect things to fall into their laps, so to speak.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Originally posted by Tropicana:

I am not at all surprised that a Christian woman take the ostrich-like approach and bury her head in the sand

Careful CEW, you're beginning to sound too much like me. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

It *did* cross my mind and I thought, Jeez... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Tropicana]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So when are you going to introduce me to these Christian men who want together women with drive energy and initiative who don't bury their heads in the sand or wait for God to drop things into their lap?

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


There is some overlap between this thread and my Christian women in denial thread. It's let's not deal with the problems. Let's not take initiative. Let's sit around and wait on the Lord to do everything for us. If that was His intention, He would not have given us arms, legs and a brain.


I know what you mean about that mentality. It is prevalent in our community. I guess I am different as I grew up hearing my dad complain about his grandparents and mother who lived by that philosophy. He still speaks of it. Now in some respects, I may have gone too far the other way as a result of hearing him speak about this but there has got to be a balance.

[Esther]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

This is quite a touchy subject and if not careful one would think Christian females are being unfairly bashed here.

In regards to some Christian women not taking the iniative to further educate themselves, I could say the same for non-Christian females as well. I don't think the decision to get a degree is associated with christianity; it has more to do with the individual's choice / training/upbringing more than anything else.

I did not grow up in a Christian home, never went to church except for my primary school graduation. It was automatic that I would go to college. I did so and while in my senior year of college, came to know Christ...through a woman in the final stages of completing her Masters degree at the time. My sister, a non-christian, has chosen not to go to college and that has caused some uproar in the family...that is another story.

It was also my preference as a single non-christian female not to go chasing after a man. I didn't do it then and wouldn't do it now; It's just not my cup of tea. Yes I am friendly and can/have initiate a conversation with members from both sexes. I'll even initiate a conversation with the man I'm intersted in, however it is up to him to take it from there if interested in me. No rules, just not my thing to pursue a guy....Christian or not.

My outlook on Finances, relationships and marriage is healthy....I attribute a lot of that to the teachings I receive in church. In my church there is hardly anyone, hardly! that does not have at least a bachelor's degree? Why? From the teachings that come from the pulpit.

The pastor is a go-getter, an accountant, and almost every Sunday, find's a way to talk about success, both as a man and as a woman, single or not. It's one of the reasons why I was so attracted to my current fellowship; most of the people there have at least one degree, own a business, own a home, drive good cars, live in good neighborhoods and send their children to good schools....oh, and they're all black; all successful - both single and married.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Originally posted by Tropicana:
There is some overlap between this thread and my Christian women in denial thread. It's let's not deal with the problems. Let's not take initiative. Let's sit around and wait on the Lord to do everything for us. If that was His intention, He would not have given us arms, legs and a brain.

I do agree with you, with the caveat being that as long as she is not doing anything that contradicts the Word.

I know what you mean about that mentality. It is prevalent in our community. I guess I am different as I grew up hearing my dad complain about his grandparents and mother who lived by that philosophy. He still speaks of it. Now in some respects, I may have gone too far the other way as a result of hearing him speak about this but there has got to be a balance.

And it is that balance that I think is important. There are some things that God will do, and there are things we have to do. Generally speaking, it is the abdication of responsibility / indifference regarding the things we have to do that I find most disturbing.

[Tropicana]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Esther PM me with your location and church. I will be in a position to move in 4 years.

[Diplomat]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

Originally posted by Esther:
This is quite a touchy subject and if not careful one would think Christian females are being unfairly bashed here.

In regards to some Christian women not taking the iniative to further educate themselves, I could say the same for non-Christian females as well. I don't think the decision to get a degree is associated with christianity; it has more to do with the individual's choice / training/upbringing more than anything else.

The Christian woman is *not* being bashed and the issue is not about degrees or lack thereof. Post secondary education was simply mentioned as an area that some do not take advantage of, yet some complain when bypassed for positions for which they are not academically qualified. The thinking here is that if it is God's will for them to get the position, they will. That is the kind of thinking that is being challenged.

It was also my preference as a single non-christian female not to go chasing after a man. I didn't do it then and wouldn't do it now; It's just not my cup of tea. Yes I am friendly and can/have initiate a conversation with members from both sexes. I'll even initiate a conversation with the man I'm intersted in, however it is up to him to take it from there if interested in me. No rules, just not my thing to pursue a guy....Christian or not.

I have absolutely no problem with your approach at all which I am all for. Where I part roads with some posters is that some would think that what you do is also chasing.

I applaud your healthy outlook on finances and so on, but have to concede you have the benefit of good pastoral teaching. Not everyone does.

[tonirand]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

** patiently waiting for the response**

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CEW:
CEW You have a right to your points of views as reflected in your entire response, but your indignation is misplaced. I am not at all surprised that a Christian woman take the ostrich-like approach and bury her head in the sand

Jedi: Excuse me? Where am I burying my head in the sand here. I am challenging what you said since it is also directed at me. That to me is not burying my head in the sand.

CEW: , placing the blame on the Christian male's lack of appreciation for her.

Jedi: Where did I say that either? Unless you consider my counter to your argument as saying that you do-not appreciate her in which case that is your thinking which may not be very short of the truth, since you said it first therefore it was in YOUR mind not mine.

CEW: It is that kind of an attitude that I personally find offensive.

Jedi: What attitude is that? You are projecting your beliefs on to what you think I believe.

CEW: Instead of trying to raise the bar somewhat, as against sitting around waiting on God to do for them what they should be doing for themselves

JedI: Now this is the first time you have mentioned any of the above. Your first statement left questions of doubt in my mind as to exactly what you meant. Now that you have mentioned this however, let me hasten to say that that is a totally biased and unchristian way of viewing these women. When the women on this forum spoke of waiting on God I clearly understood it to be in reference to finding a mate. Now however you have extended it to mean waiting on God to provide them with the things which they should be able to provide for themselves. Which begs the question –What kind of women have you been dating? Or are you again stereotyping Christian women whose circumstances you have no intimate awareness of?

CEW: they cry foul when some Christian brothers require more of a sister than just a face, and someone who shows up in church on Sundays. What is so wrong with Christian brothers raising the bar with realisitic expectations?

Jedi: Nothing except that for it to be a requirement of a Christian man it stinks of carnality and earthly mindedness. But on the other hand there is nothing wrong with a brother helping his sisters to help themselves, but as I said I take issue to the term “Raising the bar as a realistic expectation.” In other words for whose good? For the brother? Or purely out of Christian love and a desire to see the highest good of the sister? Be careful here.

Cew: It is ironic that you choose to zero in on the issue of sisters approaching brothers, but totally ignore the thinking that it would seem not enough of them - especially singles - even take the opportunity to further educate themselves

Jedi: Excuse me you never went so far as to mention education. But you did clearly mention women approaching men.

CEW: It is true that some of them are, and I am extremely proud of their forward thinking, but how many of them are simply waiting for a brother to show up with his assets - which for some of these ladies *are* a prerequisite?

Jedi: Really? Again my question -what kind of women were we talking about here Christian women? Because I have been talking about Christian women all along.

CEW: By no means am I painting Christian women with a broad brush, but to deny that something is wrong with the way some of them perceive things is not helping anyone either.

Jedi: You are painting Christian women with a broad brush, however I agree that if the women you know think this way there is something wrong. Unfortunately or fortunately I cannot empathize with this because I have only known Christian women who have worked hard all their lives and leaned on Jesus when their men left them for dead with a houseful of children. Many of whom by the way did not have an opportunity to further educate themselves what with providing for their children first. But if you are speaking of single Christian women without children who have this opportunity and don’t reach for it then I am in total agreement with you. In my circles I know of none, none that are Christians at any rate.

CEW: Have you ever listened to say a Juanita Bynum teaching at a women's conference?

Jedi: No I haven’t but I have read my bible, and learned from the lives of many of the women, but most importantly from the Master Himself.

CEW The issues she boldly addresses are things that some religious women would be offended at, but until Christian women realize first and foremost that marriage is a ministry,

Jedi:I believe you must be speaking to non-Christians here for if the Christian women you know are short in this area it is either
a) Your pastor is not doing his job, or
b) Based on what you said in the above about women providing for themselves, you see marriage as a business of sorts which will afford you to have the style of living that you hope to attain, without having to shoulder too much of the financial burdens.. In either case you have a pretty warped notion of marriage, and it appears to reek of nothing but possessions and position.

CEW: and there are requirements for it other than body parts,

Jedi: Such as money and education?

CEW: and that it is possible for them to experience a certain level of independence through education and other non-compromising opportunities,

Jedi: I agree with you here, as long as this is not meant so that you the man can be eased of the burden of responsibility for your family, or so that the woman is not too dependent on your paycheck. Because believe it or not that is one of the trends I see with today’s black man Not having the same ambition for being the principal bread winner in the home, they tend more to want a relationship that puts less stress on his accountability, and more on her. BTW: that business about women approaching men for a date lands her squarely into that predicament, by virtue of taking the lead in the first place.

CEW: the Christian male will take note of the difference with their non-Christian counterparts.

Jedi: Some men will especially the carnally minded.

CEW:To imply that a Christian man admires a non-Christain woman because he is motivated by other desires is asinine.

Jedi: CEW say that it wasn’t on your mind and I may believe you. But to say that a Christian man admiring a non-Christian woman because he is motivated by other desires is asinine IS MOST ASSININE AND UNWISE.

a) Asinine because it goes against your very nature of sin and I am willing to wager that admiration and desire are inseparable, whether for financial (and I say financial here because I see that this is your main concern) or sexual gain.

b) Unwise because the fact is you find such a woman desirable because you believe she can provide you with what the other woman may not, not a basis for any sound marriage to begin with. Added to that is the fact that this amounts to nothing more than earthly carnality which is of no value before almighty God

CEW: First and foremost, Christianity is *not* a burden that handicaps her

Jedi: No but it certainly places restraints on her behavior, her mode of dress and style of living, which may be some of the things that you guys were admiring so much in the non-Christian woman. . It teaches her that she has a definite place in her home and it further relies very heavily on the man to do his part as the aggressor in the roll. And even though many of us have it within us to take the lead, very often we acquiesc in order to save your faces. Hence here you have a damned if you do and damned if you don’t scenario. And in no way was I implying that Chriatianity was any other type of burden except in so far as we bear these limitations in obedience to Christ.

CEW: and to suggest that the color of her skin is a factor in this thread is offensive.

Jedi: Why is that a lie? Are not black women still the most oppressed of women no matter how much education she may attain, doesn’t she have to work twice as hard to be on equal footing? Hello! Where do you live? Or are you in total denial of the facts.

Cew: When someone is going to tell me she needs to pray about the color of the car she is going to buy, I am sorry, but I do not find that admirable.

Jedi: RED HERRING- Who is dicussing praying over the color of cars here? Or are you erroneously implying that skin color and car color are one and the same and of no importance? I sincerely hope not.

[Guest]

Re: The Christian Guy and Non-Christian Females...

At the risk of agreeing with CEW which I don't necessarily like to do, I do understand what he's trying to get at.

The bottom line is as women, christian or not, we owe it to ourselves to be the best that we can be and do whatever possible to achieve that. If that means getting a higher education or just being self-confident, then that's what we need to do.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing christians using the "waiting on God" excuse. Faith without works is dead.