Bible Study

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 02:13 PM

Re: Bible Study

DB, the scripture you quoted in Matthew 17 made me change my thought process regarding Moses' soul. I always read the one in Hebrew quoted by CEW, however, the constant teachings (since I was little) that no one knows whether Moses made it to heaven or not was in the back of my mind. Until I re-read Matth. 17 and now can exhale about dear Moses. DWL [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

CEW, I'm still waiting for your comment on water baptism by immersion.

**Diplomat** · 06-30-2003, 02:20 PM

Re: Bible Study

DB: On the matter of the two prophets, you are referring to Revelation 11:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

There is one school of thought that one of these prophets is Elijah as he had not see death, and some say the other is Moses. Peter's "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." may have contributed to that thinking, but we really do not know for sure who the two will be.

**Diplomat** · 06-30-2003, 02:21 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by Queen:
CEW, I'm still waiting for your comment on water baptism by immersion.

It was your statement about sprinkling that surprised me, but I am not going to pursue it.

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 02:26 PM

Re: Bible Study

Some denominations believe sprinkling is adequate and considered as baptism...hence my reference to various doctrinal practices. Pursure if you wish, the thread is for open discussion.

I read a commentary on the subject a while ago. I'll see if I can dig it up.

**kthydvs** · 06-30-2003, 02:31 PM

Re: Bible Study

Normally only one male minister is needed to baptize someone.
While the Bible does not outline procedural rules concerning Christian baptism, we can learn from the Biblical record. The water baptism of Jesus is particularly instructive.
The Bible reports: “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John [the Baptizer], in order to be baptized by him.” (Matthew 3:13) Notice that it says “by him.. The Gospel accounts give no indication that anyone shared with John in baptizing Jesus. Jesus’ baptism, then, sets the pattern of total immersion in water, but it also suggests that one male servant of God should perform the baptism.
An examination of the Bible shows no evidence of women doing baptizing. But it does record examples of dedicated men baptizing others. (Matt. 3:13-17; John 4:2; Acts 8:38)

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 02:32 PM

Re: Bible Study

"Go into all nations, preach the gospel to them, work miracles among them, and persuade them to come in themselves, and bring their children with them, into the church of Christ, and then admit them and theirs into the church, by washing them with water;" either dipping them in the water, or pouring or sprinkling water upon them, which seems the more proper, because the thing is most frequently expressed so, as Isa. 43:3, I will pour my Spirit on thy seed. And, Tit. 3: 5, 6, Which he shed on us abundantly. And, Ezek. 36: 25, I will sprinkle clean water upon you. And, Isa. 52:15, So shall he sprinkle many nations; which seems a prophecy of this commission to baptize the nations.

From Matthew Henry Commentary

**Dailybread** · 06-30-2003, 02:35 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]
There is one school of thought that one of these prophets is Elijah as he had not see death, and some say the other is Moses. Peter's "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." may have contributed to that thinking, but we really do not know for sure who the two will be. [/qb]

That's a very interesting point CEW, I've always thought it to be fact that these two were Elijah and Moses. It pays to study the Word.

DB

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 02:37 PM

Re: Bible Study

Kumba, from the scripture you quoted and the example of John the Baptist conduction baptisms. I'm not convinced that a male alone should conduct baptisms. If that were the case, then men alone should spread the gospel as well.

The bible stated "by him" because JOhn the baptist indeed was a man. That has nothing to do with gender specifications on baptism...that was one example the Bible does not state "only men alone should baptize"

**Dailybread** · 06-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] Normally only one male minister is needed to baptize someone.
While the Bible does not outline procedural rules concerning Christian baptism, we can learn from the Biblical record. The water baptism of Jesus is particularly instructive.
The Bible reports: “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John [the Baptizer], in order to be baptized by him.” (Matthew 3:13) Notice that it says “by him.. The Gospel accounts give no indication that anyone shared with John in baptizing Jesus. Jesus’ baptism, then, sets the pattern of total immersion in water, but it also suggests that one male servant of God should perform the baptism.
An examination of the Bible shows no evidence of women doing baptizing. But it does record examples of dedicated men baptizing others. (Matt. 3:13-17; John 4:2; Acts 8:38) [/qb]

Kumba, I'm not questioning whether or not it's appropriate for a man or woman to baptize anyone. My question is really who is that particular command given to. It would appear that He was speaking to his diciples, however as I've stated before if we are now all diciples what is to prevent us from baptizing a new believer? Please keep in mind I'm not getting into doctrins but moreso in what the Bible has to say.

Thanks,
DB

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 02:42 PM

Re: Bible Study

An examination of the Bible shows no evidence of women doing baptizing. But it does record examples of dedicated men baptizing others.

An examination of the Bible also shows no evidence of women going throughout the land preaching and teaching the gospel solo (except for priscilla who was a teacher of the word with her husband)

Should we now conclude that women should not share their faith and or spread the gospel solo, or even be ordained as or perform duties as preachers & teachers of the word, solo?

**Dailybread** · 06-30-2003, 02:51 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] The Bible reports: “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John [the Baptizer], in order to be baptized by him.” (Matthew 3:13) Notice that it says “by him.. [/qb]

Please reference KJV St. John 1 :6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He went to John to be baptized because John was the only one baptizing. John had a purpose to fulfill (prepare the way for Jesus) hich He did.

DB

**Diplomat** · 06-30-2003, 02:59 PM

Re: Bible Study

Queen: The Greek word - baptizō - is the one translated baptism in the text and it means:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

Also, baptism is supposed to mirror the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus, with the death and burial (submerging) of the old man, and the resurrection (coming up out of the water) in the newness of life. I am hard pressed to see how sprinkling - or the imagery in my mind - allows that. Interestingly, Bible Commentators are not unanimous in agreement on the methodology.

Edited to read death and burial of the "old" man instead of "new" man as I had before.

**kthydvs** · 06-30-2003, 04:15 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by Dailybread:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] Normally only one male minister is needed to baptize someone.
While the Bible does not outline procedural rules concerning Christian baptism, we can learn from the Biblical record. The water baptism of Jesus is particularly instructive.
The Bible reports: “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John [the Baptizer], in order to be baptized by him.” (Matthew 3:13) Notice that it says “by him.. The Gospel accounts give no indication that anyone shared with John in baptizing Jesus. Jesus’ baptism, then, sets the pattern of total immersion in water, but it also suggests that one male servant of God should perform the baptism.
An examination of the Bible shows no evidence of women doing baptizing. But it does record examples of dedicated men baptizing others. (Matt. 3:13-17; John 4:2; Acts 8:38) [/qb]

Kumba, I'm not questioning whether or not it's appropriate for a man or woman to baptize anyone. My question is really who is that particular command given to. It would appear that He was speaking to his diciples, however as I've stated before if we are now all diciples what is to prevent us from baptizing a new believer? Please keep in mind I'm not getting into doctrins but moreso in what the Bible has to say.

Thanks,
DB [/qb]

It is not doctrine I am quoting. Jesus getting baptised was the perfect example of how it should be done. other baptisms mentioned were carried out by men. If we look at the role of women within (note i said within) the Christian organisation, they are instructed to learn in silence with full submissivness (men are our spititual heads), not to teach or to excerise authority over a man (1Tim 2:11,12). Paul in the next chapter goes onto to outline the requirments of those who will guide the christian congregation. This is directed to men (1Tim 3:1-13).

As I said in my first posting, there is not a direct rule that prevents women baptizing, but following the perfect example of Jesus's baptism and that carried out by Peter with the Ethiopian eunuch, together with the instructions for women within the Christian congregation, it would appear that women do not do the baptizing. However, when it comes to spreading the Good News of God's Kingdom, women have played a major role. Jesus had many followers who were female and doubtless they preached to people they met. This preaching is outside of the Christian congregation, so it does not undermine the authority of the Christian man.

**Dailybread** · 06-30-2003, 05:03 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb]
Jesus had many followers who were female and doubtless they preached to people they met. This preaching is outside of the Christian congregation, so it does not undermine the authority of the Christian man. [/qb]

Kumba1,
I'm not sure if you are a Christian or not, and I'm not sure what exactly it is that you believe. I'm a bit concerned based on your statements, however I'm not going to get into a debate as we all receive differently.

DB

**Queen** · 06-30-2003, 06:02 PM

Re: Bible Study

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]Also, baptism is supposed to mirror the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus, with the death and burial (submerging) of the old man, and the resurrection (coming up out of the water) in the newness of life.[/qb]

Thanks for the reminder.