The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

The descriptions from Genesis indicate that man is both a new creation and at least partially based upon a previous design. Genesis 2:7 indicates that man was formed from the "dust of the ground" - indicating creation was based upon pre-existing material. What was the nature of this "dust?" It could refer to creation based upon a previously-used body plan or genetic design. This would explain why human DNA shares similarity with the DNA of chimpanzees and other apes.

The original Hebrew writings used the word(s) "asah" when describing man's creation.

asah - made or formed from pre-existing material...

This could refer to man's body based upon previous biological designs.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Its amazing how easy it is for some to believe in evolution and Space visitor creators and try to use scriptures to agree with their pet theories.

However where as it must scripture deviates from these origin theories the assumption is that scripture must be in error.

The other amazing feature is the comigling of scripture with the annakuti or whatever is vogue time travel, Atlantis, Star wars, stargate etc.

I have no issue with enquiring minds, but the bible is clear that one cannot choose to believe in part, its the whole thing or none at all.

The real truth is that so much is unknown about what is out there it leaves a lot of room for speculation and assumption.

The vastness of our universe the relatively little we know about the meaning of it all spurs our creative juices to come up with scenarios borrowed from time immemorial when men looked into the night sky and wondered what was out there.

The bible says very little about life on other planets, it does not deny or admit it. It however says a lot about life on this planet we call earth.
But the bible does speak of other levels of existince, differing much from ours and declares there is an unseen world.

History is vivid with stories of visitors from other worlds much more advanced than humans.The Bible is a spiritual record and it does warn us of deceptions by creatures more advanced than humans with knowledge of the secret things of God, morever there is always the warning not everthing is good for one's soul.
Yestersday's demons/gods may more fashionably be seen today as space visitors, but the bible also warned that Satan has transformed himself into "an angel of light".

All this is a matter of faith. Who do you believe?

It always have been a choice man's wisdom or Gods? [/qb]

Accepted, I sure do understand your point(s). Few people have burned the midnight oil more than me studying the scriptures and learning just about every tactic of Christian apologetics. I have a huge library here on how to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims (orthodox as well as the NOI), Mormons, Jews, etc. I have read novels like, This Present Darkness and it's sequels. I have studied religious history, been a student of ancient myths since 4th grade and have seen just about everything on the church scene growing up Catholic initially, then Baptist then Pentecostal Holiness before settling in a non-denominational setting.

For years I felt snug and comfortable in my setting scoffing at New Agers as looney pagans and there was NO way anything they believed I was going to beleive. When I studied my relgious history, I went in with a mind that said, my qauint Christianity was right and I am going to go back in time judging everything by it. Of course this led me to believe that all ancient people were idolatrous, child killers, and completely disillusioned with all their many gods. Since they were (of course) wrong, what I beleived by default was somehow right. I thought I had all bases covered. I felt good!

However, there was one subject I could NEVER get a clear answer on. Why was it that there seemed to be a connection between religions (the older ones) and why were there these strange monuments and other strutures littering the globe from corner to another? Why was there this PERSISTENT mention of gods coming down to earth in strange crafts or just simply coming down? Why the Pyramids with all their architectural mystery or Easter Island? Why Gilgal Rephaim ("Circle of the Giants) in Syria or Angkhor Wat in Cambodia?

Then I stumbled into Genesis 6 and realized that the "sons of God" known correctly as the Nephilims and their offspring who apparently assumed the name synonymously once roamed the earth. This was not from some fantasy tale; this was right in my own Bible. I was set back. Here my own Bible was beginning to sound like science fiction. The sons of God actually descended upon the earth? How? Did they just appear? Fly? It then became somewhat evident to me that those first 5 verses of Genesis 6 was highly condensed if not edited. Could the Bible possibly have been the only book to even touch on this subject and if it was, why so sparse on the details? Then I read Christian commentaries on the verses and some interpreted the "sons of God" as being nothing more than mere godly men even though the very context seemed to imply more than just mere men.

Enter the book of Enoch. Here was a book obviously known and read by the early church and apparently well revered yet banned from the biblical cannon. Then I came to find out that Rome had a lot to do with this and Roman Church doctors like Augustine had much to do with influencing the church's interpretation of Genesis 6 as nothing more than godly men making bad choices in wives. It became painfully clear that the whole story was not being told. God destroyed the old earth because of marital choices??? No, I did not think I was that stupid.

From that place I took on the courage to finally give ear to those undesirable pagans I never gave the time of day to. The more I read the more I kept bumping into stories of gods coming from the skies/stars/heavens. Then of course I read about Ezekiel trying to describe some being and his ride that in all frankness would qualify him for a room with padded walls. Heck, if I came on here and told you guys I stopped one night and saw a ladder going up to heaven and on that ladder were stange looking beings walking back and forth on it and then a booming voice told me I was going to be somebody special, no one would believe me yet Jacob is praised as a man of God and not a man well acquainted with Wray and Nephew.

All of this coupled with my keen memory of those myths I used to read about. Something went on in those ancient days. There was something folks were not talking about or were afraid to talk about. Apparently the pagans had the story first and the much later Hebrews borrowed it and apparently edited it to fit into their neat little world view. Their holy book skips and skims over thousands of years of history just to hurry up and tell the story of their ancestor, Abraham and his people. Somehow the rest of the world stopped existing or their stories and view of things did not matter. Heck, call them heathens and pagans with nothing sensible to say, prop yourself as the people of God and you effectively remove any contributions they have/had to make. Sure, we may use a name of their pagan God as one of our months (Tammuz) and borrow some of their elements to form our own views but they're the God-hating pagans.

[accepted77]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

There's is another way of looking at it all. That not all the sons of God were good.

That some did come down with a mission to corrupt man and pollute God's word. That the written record of the Hebrews does edit out knowledge that if recorded would be used to further the knowledge for evil.

That the corruption did not cease with the flood, that writing after the flood became associated with evil so that Dueteronomy was the first book of the law written by Order of King Josiah way after the sumerian clay tablets.

That the stories of gods are true that they had craft and wisdom and knowledge in buildings which they gave to men for a price, a price paid in corruption, hedonistic pleasures and blood. That these gods were none ever than mascuerading demons in disguise.

All this is in the bible which makes no attempt to hide it.

But that in all these accounts the truth have been mixed with lies, like it was to Eve "ye shall be like gods knowing good from evil".

Mutty I am sure you are aware of the concept of "total recall" its the passing on of knowledge through history by rote.

My take on all this is that for eons the truth of Gods word was by "recall" the "oral tradition". God spoke to Adam, Adam told Eve, God spoke to Cain, to Abel etc.

But when Cain left the presence of the Lord it open the door to alternative technology. Have it ever puzzelled that all cav drawings were places of worship to Earth Gods, never have any cave drawing depicted One God. But go back far enough in all these stories and one theme emerges there was once one God, and there was one women from which all mankind came.

Some put creation at 10,000BC the Summerian writings are 3,000 to 5000BC that still leaves over two millenia of unwritten history, was man silent all that time?

From the bible we know there was a war among the angels we also know that Satan and a third of the host were cast down to earth. The bible conservatively places Gods host at thousand of thousands so thats a whole heap of fallen angels. Thats a whole heap of gods to go around. Some surmise the casting down of these angels happens sometime between creation and Seth's birth.

We know some were imprisoned in taratarus some sent to the bottomless pit, but many others were free to create whatever ancient myths to men seeking an alternative to God, and they did a whole heap of damage to creation as well. All this is in the bible.

Mutty, sure there are lots of coincidences between the ancient writings and the bible but answer one question?

Is summerian the original Adamic tongue spoken in the Garden of Eden, if not summerian is not the first account.

[Guest]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

I hope that my thoughts will be seen as nothing more than my personal opinion. I mean no disrespect for anyone else's opinion. My opinion is simply different.

This has been an interesting (though long) read but I can't help but be reminded of an anecdote that Stephen Hawkings offers in the introduction to his book "A Brief History of Time."

A famous astronomer is giving a lecture outlining the motion of the Earth around the Sun, tied to the Planets, within our galaxy, the universe, the cosmos. The enormous number of galaxies and the unthinkable number of stars. The insignificance of the Earth on this cosmic scale.

At the end ot the lecture, and old lady stands up at the back of the lecture hall and insists, "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

To this statement, the scientist gave a superior smile and replyed, "Well then. What is the tortoise standing on?"

To which the old woman replied, "You're very clever, young man, very clever," she said. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

While I feel the passion for your argument, it seems little more than a stack of turtles. To me it seems a simple explanation for a situation that is too difficult for a human to comprehend. It relys on premises without proof, such as aliens. It presents opinion as fact. It's base offers no more support than the Christian notion of "faith" yet it purports to be stronger.

I believe that God created me and the universe not because it has been proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt, but because I have faith. I believe that humans have made their technological advances because God made humans with strong minds and bodies, not because aliens give us some secret information. (Who gave the aliens the information. Were they visited at an earlier date? The theory is a stack of turtles.)

And I forget who made this observation first, but I'm always suspicious when someome comes to me with a fascinating theory that is going to open my eyes. With a theory so clear that a child of five could not dispute it.

I don't know 'exactly' how God did it, but for me, the buck has to stop somewhere and it stops with Him. No aliens to explain. No extraterrestial civilations.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Mulligan, what exactly is an alien to you? What image do you have in mind? If I told you this story, tell me what you would think? It goes like this:

"I took a long hike in the countryside one weekend. It started getting dark and I was still a long way from the campsite, and I was really tired after a day of walking, so I just decided to lie down and rest. I leaned my backpack against some stones for a pillow and soon fell asleep.

I awoke in the middle of the night and saw an incredible vision: a beam of light stretched down from the sky to the ground, and strange-looking beings were going up and down on it as if it was a stairwell or something. It looked something like a ladder. I saw the leader of these bright beings standing at the top of it. A deep booming voice suddenly proclaimed that they would watch me wherever I went and make me prosperous.

I tell you, it just scared the crap out of me! I woke up in the morning and didn't know whether it was a dream or what... but it seemed so real. I'll never forget what happened that night. Man I still wonder if I wasn't just dreaming."

What would you think? Who are what would you think those beings were? Would you say I had a close encounter with aliens, I had a vision from God or what? Most people would say neither because in the first possiblity, that would be the stuff of fantasy and in the latter, it would just sound like I full of myself simply imagining what I would really want - to be rich. But what happens when we read the same thing in the Bible?


"So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder [was] set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: "I [am] the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 "Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 "Behold, I [am] with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you." 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know [it."] 17 And he was afraid and said, "How awesome [is] this place! This [is] none other than the house of God, and this [is] the gate of heaven!" (Genesis 28:11-17)

It's now a simple vision of Jacob seeing the glory of God and his angels going back and forth. These are angels, creatures most of us have never and will never see but they are real for all most of us care because we are told they are and chose to believe it as such. In one case, a person comes away with the vision and calls the beings aliens because they are alien to his race not while in Jacob's vision, it is quite comfortable to just conclude they were simply angels and call it a day. No questions asked.

Mulligan and Accepted, I still believe in a supreme God. That has not changed but there is too much proof, in my estimation that some shady things have gone on the obscure, hide, or suppress ALL of the truth

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Mulligan, can you understand this? And if I came and recounted this to you, what would be your conclusion of what I claimed I saw in light of contemporary thought:

"...13In the middle of the living creatures there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches moving to and fro among the living creatures; the fire was bright, and lightning issued from the fire. 14The living creatures darted to and fro, like a flash of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them.b 16As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl; and the four had the same form, their construction being something like a wheel within a wheel. 17When they moved, they moved in any of the four directions without veering as they moved. 18Their rims were tall and awesome, for the rims of all four were full of eyes all around. 19When the living creatures moved, the wheels moved beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. 20Wherever the spirit would go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them; for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21When they moved, the others moved; when they stopped, the others stopped; and when they rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them; for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
22 Over the heads of the living creatures there was something like a dome, shining like crystal,c spread out above their heads. 23Under the dome their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each of the creatures had two wings covering its body. 24When they moved, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of mighty waters, like the thunder of the Almighty,d a sound of tumult like the sound of an army; when they stopped, they let down their wings. 25And there came a voice from above the dome over their heads; when they stopped, they let down their wings.
26 And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire;e and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form. 27Upward from what appeared like the loins I saw something like gleaming amber, something that looked like fire enclosed all around; and downward from what looked like the loins I saw something that looked like fire, and there was a splendor all around. 28Like the bow in a cloud on a rainy day, such was the appearance of the splendor all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of someone speaking." (Ezekiel 1:13-28)

Forget for a moment you saw that in the Bible and I came and told this to you? I start by telling you that I "saw the heavens open" (like Ezekiel says) so you know I saw it up in the sky. Other then thinking I am nuts, what would you conclude I was saying I saw?

I am not here to promote the idea Ezekiel saw a UFO or not and technically, the man DID see a UFO if the word is used in its strictest sense because what he described was/is certainly alien (pun intended) to the daily human experience, however, we have Ezekiel to interpret what he saw and of course our trusty commentators to tell us he saw nothing more than seraphim angels which surely had the description of something we all see everyday (sarcasm).

No, I do not believe in little green men in space suits with four fingers. I do not have that image in mind. Based on what the Sumerians depict in their cunieform tablets, these "aliens" looked like human beings.

[Guest]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Hi Mutty. If you told me that you saw creatures exit a brightly lite, hovering craft, who spoke to you, I would believe that you were imagining things. I would suspect that you had dreamed the event, even though the dream was 'real' to you.

If, on the other hand, you cited a passage from the Bible where God spoke from the heavens I would believe that that had happened.

Both events would seem an 'alien' experience to the viewer, but there is a reason why I believe the latter event and not the former.

I believe that God is capable of tasks that no other is capable of doing. Just as Jesus lived the only perfect life and no other will achieve that perfection. To believe in a perfect God is to believe in an unimaginable power. As Christians, we strive to live life as perfectly as we can but we accept our human limitations. To sum up: That God can do something is not proof that it can be done by any other.

Having said that, I'm quite positive that there is other life in the universe. Astronomers have proven that other planets exist and that those planets may have the chemistry required to carry life as we understand it. Further, if life exists elsewhere it is also likely that it has existed longer than we have. Given that, it is likely that it is more technologically advanced. Lastly, this 'advanced' technology has probably sent these lifeforms out into the universe.

But you can't conclude that argument by saying: Since there are civilizations more advanced than us who have travelled outside of their solar systems, these civilizations have visited planet Earth. We live in a galaxy of at least a billion stars, with many of these stars possibly supporting planets. And our galaxy is one of billions. When you add up the numbers, we just aren't that interesting.

I have to use another quote here, and this one is from Nobel prize winning physicist Richard Feynman:

"UFOs are better explained in terms of the unknown irrationalities of terrestrial beings rather than by any unknown rationalities of extraterrestrial beings."

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Even if we're not that interesting Mulligan, there are more than one account from ancient times that recount visits from other worlds to our planet. Now if one group of people said this, then we could just conclude they had too much of the joy juice but isn't it more than just coincidence the Hopi Indians, the Incas, the Aztecs, The Egyptians, Sumerians, Hebrews, etc recall a similar story?

[Guest]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Even if we're not that interesting ... recall a similar story? [/qb]

I recall several similar "stories." Unfortunately, I've seen no evidence to back up these stories. Now I'm a Christian who believes in Evolution, so I can be swayed by evidence,

Secondly, the idea that scientists are not interested in the evidence that has been presented doesn't sit well with me either. Scientists would like nothing more than to discover definitive proof of life beyond the earth. The scientist who discovered this proof would win a Nobel prize, fame and fortune.

[servant]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

You know Mutty, I am a simple man. And I am still, for example, not sure why I should not believe that Zeus threw lightning rods down the side of a mountain but accept as credible, a race of aliens created humanity to be their slaves by impregnating apes with their DNA.

By the way, why would a race of aliens who are "advanced" and possess what we would consider "superhuman powers" need to create something as primitive and barbaric as slaves ?

[servant]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

*

[servant]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

"I am not here to promote the idea Ezekiel saw a UFO or not..."

So what was the point of the post Mutty ?

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] "I am not here to promote the idea Ezekiel saw a UFO or not..."

So what was the point of the post Mutty ? [/qb]

To show Mulligan that in the Bible there are incidents that today would easily have been called a UFO type encounter. Because it is in the Bible, no matter how off the wall it sounds, it is digestible. Let a grandma who has never spoken a lie in her life claim the same she saw the same thing, folks would be ready to cart her off to the looney bin.

Let me reiterate again that the point I was trying to make was NOT whether Ezekiel had a UFO experience. That goes without saying that the man saw something alien to him. I was only trying to make the point that to hear a person saying they saw something strange in a canefield with bright lights and beings unlike them moving about is no different than Jacob's vision or Ezekiel's.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by servant:
[qb] You know Mutty, I am a simple man. And I am still, for example, not sure why I should not believe that Zeus threw lightning rods down the side of a mountain but accept as credible, a race of aliens created humanity to be their slaves by impregnating apes with their DNA.

By the way, why would a race of aliens who are "advanced" and possess what we would consider "superhuman powers" need to create something as primitive and barbaric as slaves ? [/qb]

I simply said I did not believe it. Didn't say you did not have to. The idea aliens (by this I mean a race different than ours simply by being from somewhere else) created humanity would take just as much "faith" to believe in as believing the biblical account. After all, we were created by a God who resides elsewhere very much like us yet very different from us. His Son came from elsewhere to enter our world to infuse his life into our dead souls to make us into new creatures.

The Sumerian account just happens to make some sense to me because at least they give an explanation as to why the human race was created where the Bible is totally mum. All the Bible leaves us to do is speculate and in the harshness and sometimes mundane human existence, many are left to wonder if God even cares because they wake up each day and wonder what the heck is the purpose of our existence.

Your last question is a valid one. No matter how advanced they were, they still apparently needed laborers to do work they sure were not going to do. When one reads the rigid laws of God laid out in Torah and even some of the rather harsh reactions and commands, the Anunnaki's actions sound relatively tame in comparison. There are chapters and/or verses in the Bible Christians are ashamed to even admit comes from the mouth of their God or his spokesmen from orders to kill non virgin women and children (numbers 31:17, 18) to writing poems glorifying a warlike God who relishes the idea of dead enemies.

[Guest]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

I agree with you Mutty that there are many events in the Bible that would be nothing short of supernatural to witness. And just like I wouldn't mind seeing a UFO or alien to cement my belief, I wouldn't mind seeing a miracle either [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I hope you are right and there is more to reality.

Again, I hope that you took my words as nothing more than a point of view.