An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by coffeegyal:
[qb]

Vindictiveness, one of the distinctive characteristics of Christian fundamentalists.

I find it interesting that you can do nothing but slander your 'New Age' competitors. What, I wonder, are you afraid of?[/qb]

The sea of new agers, come to drown them...I wondered at that, as well, Fledg...the "enemies and their subtle attack strategies." Wow. I bet a lot of these enemies don't even realize they're attacking--heck, they might even think they're minding their own business. Who knew?[/QB]

It's certainly interesting.

I find the 'New Agers' pretty silly, but they have the same right to practice their beliefs as do Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of the Church of the SubGenius.

What's agitating Servant, I doubt not, is the possibility that people might prefer New Age mumbo-jumbo to the mumbo-jumbo that he peddles.

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"Minding their own business" you said CG ? What a joke !

http://capo.org/premise/95/april/beckwith.html [/qb]

Biased source.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

"Biased source"

Says unbiased Fledgist.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

"Invective for response, how interesting"

Somehow the role of victim doesn't fit you Fledgist.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

"What you want to do is stigmatise that challenge."

I would have to say that the Shirley McClaines of this world are doing a far better job of that then I ever could.

[rebelgirl]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]I didn't mean to lump them all together, I was just trying to explain a concept that to a greater or lesser dgree could be found in all branches.

Have you ever read 'The Yoga of Light: Hatha Yoga Pradipika' ? It's by Hans Ulrich Rieker. (Seabury Press. 1971) - In it he says that "Kundalini [is] the mainstay of all yoga practices" (p. 101).

As a practicioner, how would you respond to that ?[/qb]

I haven't read the book. But I see a distinct difference between the 2 although I think you ascribed a bit to much demonic attributes to Kundalini yogic practices. the main difference I see is I concentrate less on obtaining enlightenment and more on mind body spirit well being. the experiences of Kundalini seem to be of a much more intense nature. the Hatha yoga I do is more of just a pleasant relaxing nature to me, I have never gotten in to the Kundalini aspect of it.

But Yoga is thousands of years old in it's practice and I'm quite sure all Yoga has a common origin. just as most mainstream mono theistic religions have a common origin.

Here is a good write up on Kundalini which I stole some stuff from for my post because I don't practice Kundalini so I have some learning to do as well.

http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/kundalini-faq.html

opinion, espoused by the modern Hatha yogin, Desikaran, is that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for, and Kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikaran sees the Kundalini as a block in the central channel and thus the Kundalini must be ``killed'' to make way for the prana.

What is probably more relevant is to distinguish two different experiences which are often confused. In one an individual experiences some pleasant energizing electric energy running along the spine. This experience itself brings about a wide range of experiences and results in vitality and sensitivity. Another very distinct experience is the experience of Kundalini entering the sushumna and rising up the spine. As soon as Kundalini enters the sushumna this experience will completely overwhelm ordinary waking consciousness. From the moment that Kundalini enters the sushumna there will no longer be a distinction between the subjective consciousness which experiences and the object of experience. This experience much more profoundly transfigures consciousness.

In the classical literature of Hatha yoga Kundalini is described as a coiled serpent at the base of the spine. The image of coiling, like a spring, conveys the sense of untapped potential energy. Perhaps more meaningfully Kundalini can be described as a great reservoir of creative energy at the base of the spine. It's not useful to sit with our consciousness fixed in our head and think of Kundalini as a foreign force running up and down our spine. Unfortunately the serpent image may serve to accentuate this alien nature of the image. It's more useful to think of Kundalini energy as the very foundation of our consciousness so that when Kundalini moves through our bodies our consciousness necessarily changes with it.

I'm am certainly not an expert on Yoga. And many people use it for different things i can only speak from personal experience when I say that I have not experience and demonic forces, possession or anything negative in my experiences. Just a relax and in tune body that has made me feel healthy and vibrant after .

Question on who the author or source of you post on Kundalini Yoga was. The ultimate goal of meditation and intense yogic practices is enlightenment. It seems the article you posted about Kundalini Yoga was trying to establish why enlightenment from a non Christian source was demonic and not positive. Was it written by a Christian?

Yes curious about the articles Bias. It would be the same as posting an atheist article on the spiritual attributes of Christianity.

[coffeegyal]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"What you want to do is stigmatise that challenge."

I would have to say that the Shirley McClaines of this world are doing a far better job of that then I ever could.[/qb]

I totally agree with you, Servant! Yes, new age leaders absolutely do more to stigmatise themselves than anyone else could. They set themselves up for it.

I was in the middle of reading the link you posted when I was called to take a sick kid to the clinic...will continue reading and get back to you. Like Reb, I must apologize--I also have a flippant streak (a BIG one). I do mean to learn from these discussions; sometimes I just can't take things as seriously as others do.

I'll get back to you when I'm done reading.

Oh, I also have practiced yoga for several years, and Western practice of it is very different from the Kundalini description above. I don't feel "possessed." On the contrary, it helps me focus and feel more united as a self.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

CG and Rebel, I am deliberately avoiding revealing too many of the sources because of what is known as the "poisoning the well" effect. In other words, let us deal with the info rather than getting sidetracked with the messenger. If the details are substantially correct, what does it matter. Is that OK ?

Anyway, rebel, that was a very interesting take on whether knowing all aspects of what we practice absolves us from an obligation to seek to know more about the roots and origins of what we are involved in.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

"Unfortunately the serpent image may serve to accentuate this alien nature of the image. It's more useful to think of Kundalini energy as the very foundation of our consciousness so that when Kundalini moves through our bodies our consciousness necessarily changes with it"

Let me ask you this, do you think that the use of the serpent imagery is just accidental, deliberate or an innaccurate way to describe Kundalini. Clearly the authors of these works on Yoga, who all use the same imagery, had a choice when creating these texts, both ancient and modern. And why would, the author of that quote, try to back away from imagery that has been in place for centuries ?

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"Biased source"

Says unbiased Fledgist. [/qb]

Between Christianity and any other religion I certainly am.

Your source, being a conservative Christian, is hardly going to be either fair or honest with regard to 'New Age' beliefs.

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"What you want to do is stigmatise that challenge."

I would have to say that the Shirley McClaines of this world are doing a far better job of that then I ever could.[/qb]

Or making it more attractive. Though I do have to say that you have a point.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Somebody run goh call 911 quick !!! I am feeling faint !

[rebelgirl]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:

CG and Rebel, I am deliberately avoiding revealing too many of the sources because of what is known as the "poisoning the well" effect. In other words, let us deal with the info rather than getting sidetracked with the messenger. If the details are substantially correct, what does it matter. Is that OK ?

Well it can make a difference because many people twist facts to support their view point so knowing the view point of the author can allow to understand the way in which they have chosen to present the subject. this is why I always provide a source for the articles I post, this way people can check for themselves and decide whether the info provided is worth considering.

Poisoning the well doesn't apply, when I'm talking about using reasoning, logic, and investigation, in order to establish the legitimacy of a claim. I showed you mine [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (sorry couldn't resist)

Anyway, rebel, that was a very interesting take on whether knowing all aspects of what we practice absolves us from an obligation to seek to know more about the roots and origins of what we are doing.

saying as how I do not view Yoga as evil or allowing an path for demons into my life. I don't really think knowing every bit of Yoga's history is relevant or necessary for my practicing it. the effects on myself and the world around me are what I am interested in. My obligation is to improve mine and others around me lives. I have experienced no negative impact from practicing Yoga either. I certainly have no intention of taking over the world either [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

"Unfortunately the serpent image may serve to accentuate this alien nature of the image. It's more useful to think of Kundalini energy as the very foundation of our consciousness so that when Kundalini moves through our bodies our consciousness necessarily changes with it"

Let me ask you this, do you think that the use of the serpent imagery is just accidental, deliberate or an innaccurate way to describe Kundalini. Clearly the authors of these works on Yoga, who all use the same imagery, had a choice when creating these texts, both ancient and modern.

Saying as how the practice of Yoga predates Christianity, the significance of the serpent isn't really anything. The serpent only means something negative in context with the bible and beliefs steming from it. The aborigines of Australia believe it was a serpent that created the earth. Many other cultural religions have positive meaning associated with serpents. The serpent usually represents a powerful spirit in many of these beliefs.

I think one has to buy into the religious view point that a serpent is bad. which I think the author of the article I posted was also buying into. Serpents have come to be in our society a negative image mostly due to Christian influence. Probably routed in mans fear of snakes because of the danger presented by the poisonous ones.

However in India the birth place of Yoga the serpent is a powerful, and positive creature in nature, to be respected, and feared, but rather than assigning it a demonic persona they have given it a place of respect and chosen it to represent the energy force that travels through the body. Doesn't bother me in the least. Animals have always been used to represent aspects of natural, and human forces. . I find this view leads to a greater respect for the natural world, which I think we could all use.

[Dyoll]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

My attitude to all religions is one that ranges from sceptical to outright dismissive: from the so-called "big three" - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - to New Age and Voodoo. However, just as I have a right to observe none, I also respect the rights of all others to practice their religious beliefs according to the dictates of their conscience, of course, provided that they do not commit violence, or infringe upon the human and civil rights of others.

I can understand why Christians, particularly fundamentalist christians, are so fearful of the NAM; it's a rival belief system that will ultimately threaten their existence. Many people are realizing that christianity, for instance, is simply inadequate in terms of explaining the complex realities of our world, and therefore, fail to have meaning.

New Agers may have some pretty outlandish beliefs, but I find that they are concerned with world peace, justice, compassion, environmental preservation, etc, which makes them far less dangerous (if dangerous at all) than fundamentalist christians, especially those driving US foreign policy, who are a bunch of warlords, who support brutish escapades all over the world. We risk a global nuclear war because of these nuts.

Personally, I think the world would be much better if there were more humanists, and less fundamentalists.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

["Your source, being a conservative Christian, is hardly going to be either fair or honest with regard to 'New Age' beliefs"]

A Priori. L. Being without examination or analysis