Another reason I am not a Christian

**Wahalla** · 02-23-2003, 07:44 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Tuffy following this thread I am reminded of a Bruce Lee movie on an iterlectual level.. fledg stands alone surrounded by his oponents he takes them on alone and almost with breath taking ease parries, attacks,counter punches with ease and elegance without letting a hair move out of place.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] .. Simply interlectual superior.. Dont you just hate him ? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

**Tuff Gong** · 02-23-2003, 11:21 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Wahalla:
[qb]Tuffy following this thread I am reminded of a Bruce Lee movie on an iterlectual level.. fledg stands alone surrounded by his oponents he takes them on alone and almost with breath taking ease parries, attacks,counter punches with ease and elegance without letting a hair move out of place.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] .. Simply interlectual superior.. Dont you just hate him ? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [/qb]

No I don`t....I respect an admire him.
What I hate is the modern tarring and feathering and propect of meeting any one of these good christians for a walk in the park....I may not come back....Peace!

**Fledgist** · 02-23-2003, 05:02 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb]This thread brings up an interesting point. the KJV, American Standard and Living bible say servant. The NIV version says slave. It is also very easy to take something out of context. The verses that follow explain the reason for verse 18.

Would we call such a shortfall a lie? A mistake? A deliberate deception? I will be kind and call it a mistake not to print the 'rest of the story'.

{Fledgist: And do those verses in any way, shape, or form, condemn slavery? Is there anywhere in the Bible a condemnation of slavery? I'll wait.}

Just out of curiousity, Fledgist, how many Americans or Jamaicans are slaves? Do not count "mental slavery".[/qb]

Since slavery is illegal, there's no census data. However, there continues to be prædial slavery in the United States, and enslaved manufactory workers surface from time to time. You might want to educate yourself on the subject. For all I know, you may be a slaveholder yourself.

**Fledgist** · 02-23-2003, 05:27 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb][QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:

Originally posted by Jedi:
Fledgist: Because it it would be presumptuous of you so to do. And because I find it offensive.

Jedi: So therefore you presumed!

Fledgist: You really should figure out which meaning of the word I used.

Jedi: Either ways you cannot read my mind therefore you still presumed .

{Fledgist: I presume, from this, that you claim to have a mind.}

Fledgist: In other words you're saying the Bible is not the word of god but a human creation.

Jedi: I am not saying any such thing. Yet another presumption However one cannot take out of context the times in which the Apostles lived, nor try to apply modern standards to a time when that was not the norm, it is like

{Fledgist: Either it is the eternal work of god, or it is a temporally-bound human creation. You can't have it both ways. I'm applying timeless moral standards: human beings are ends, not means. That's all.}

{Fledgist: That's specious and dishonest. Slavery is a crime. That's it. Argument done.

Jedi: Ah, retrospect how sublime. There is nothing remotely specious nor dishonest about the facts, however criminal it may seem now, those were the facts. You cannot take people out of the period in which they lived and apply current codes of conduct or laws to them. Yes laws and

{Fledgist: I'm applying a universal moral standard. Slavery was wrong 2000 years ago, it's wrong today. Murder was wrong 2000 years ago, it's wrong today.}

codes of conduct do change! morals remain the same, God's morals have never changed, men just never followed them. And I do dare to say what changes have occured over time are due in large part to the enlightenment brought about by CHRISTIANITY!

{Fledgist: Does screaming make something true? Where is the condemnation of slavery in the Bible? The Enlightenment, it seems pretty clear, involved the overcoming of superstitions like Christianity.}

Fledgist: Your religion could have condemned slavery, instead slaves are told to submit even to the harshest master.

Jedi: Again an argument out of context with what Christianity teaches. Paul one of the forerunners of my religion also said this and I quote:

1 Corinthians 7
20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.

{Fledgist: In other words, if you are oppressed just accept it. This is the morality of the slavemaster, nothing else. No decent person could accept this are moral.}

Obviously slavery is viewed as far less of a deterrent from a physical standpoint than from a spiritual one. The message being that the man who is freed spiritually is freed to see the depravity of his physical condition. Therefore

{Fledgist: In other words, focus on the delusion rather than the reality. This is no different from the 'freedom' obtained by intoxication.}

the greater weight of slavery is on the mind of the man. FREE YOUR MIND in other words and you will see more clearly to FREE YOUR BODY Or is that too specious for your taste?

{Fledgist: My mind is free, thanks. Yours doesn't seem to be.}

Fledgist: This is evil. It is nothing else. If you believe this, you too are an evil person.

Jedi: Well that is the way you view me and I view you so that goes without saying no matter the circumstance. But back to this argument, let us see how the Christian God viewed slavery, here is another passage from the same book the Bible that you claimed "condoned slavery:

Jeremiah 34
16 But now you have turned around and profaned my name; each of you has taken back the male and female slaves you had set free to go where they wished. You have forced them to become your slaves again.

{Fledgist: And this means simply that having made a promise, they've gone back on it. It does not condemn slavery as an institution. Try again.}

17 "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen. So I now proclaim 'freedom' for you, declares the LORD -'freedom' to fall by the sword, plague and famine. I will make you abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 The men who have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces.

{Fledgist: And where in this 'covenant' is slavery condemned?}

Jedi: Rather harsh words to His own people wouldn't you say, for a God that condoned slavery?

{Fledgist: The harsh words, such as they are, are not about slavery.}

Fledgist: If you can't tell the difference between morality and technology, you need help.

Jedi: Many today would argue that caravans drawn by oxen back then was nothing short of cruelty to animals. I guess it all depends on which 'moral codes' you are debating on. But for the sake of

{Fledgist: Red herring alert.}

this argument, let me just say that I am trying to point out how ludicrous it is to adapt an ancient culture to our current moral codes of conduct and laws.

{Fledgist: Hmm. If that's your argument -- and you are, thereby, making the Bible a historically-bound work. Then you cannot claim that it is relevant to life today. In any case, as I've pointed out, I'm applying a universal moral standard. Slavery is a crime. Revolt against slavery is defence against that crime.}

Fledgist: Tell me, are you actually claiming that morality can change?

Jedi: God's morals have never changed, as I said above, but man's have, repeatedly. Why, you should know all about that! Afterall isn't it man who sets the moral standards that we follow?

{Fledgist: DWL. Morals derive from reason.}

Fledgist: That there is no fixed standard of right and wrong? Your religion teaches that?

Jedi: Is this the same person who argues so vigorously against "absolute truths" speaking here? (Tongue in cheek of course)
Now you know full well what my religion teaches which is the reason why you are so totally against it. ABSOLUTE RIGHT AND WRONG My God is a God of JUSTICE, see the foregoing scripture passage.

{Fledgist: I asked you a question. If there is absolute right and wrong, you cannot say 'something was acceptable in the past and is not acceptable now'. So would you kindly tell me why you are arguing that right and wrong are relative? That is what you're doing by stating that they are historically-bound. So, either you don't know what you're saying or you're a flaming hypocrite. Which is it?}

Fledgist: And so you spit on your ancestors. Your 'holy' book justifies a crime.
It tells the victims of that crime that they must submit (you do realise that slaves are being taught they must accept being tortured, mutilated, or raped?.

Jedi: (Now here comes the deconstruction of Christianity) Christianity is vehemently opposed to sin in all forms, including the use of carefully crafted lies and utilizing scriptures taken out of context; in order to

{Fledgist: LOL! It looks like you've run out of argument here.}

antagonize, inflame, incite, and garner sympathy and wrath, amongst the gullible readers for the perpetuation of hatred against God's Church.

{Fledgist: Could we have some coherence, please? I find you hateful, ridiculous, and contemptible, but I perpetuate nothing, I merely comment.}

ANTI-CHRIST decked out in his finest array.... DECEPTION.

{Fledgist: When in doubt, resort to invective?}

Fledgist: By your argument, be it noted, because abortion is legal here and now it should not be opposed. I expect you never again to complain of it.

Jedi: Have you suddenly changed sides on the abortion issue?

{Fledgist: No. Apparently you have a hard time understanding what you read.}

A hundred years from now were abortion to be found one of the most hienous crimes against mankind (which I believe it is today, as does the Christian church) - someone might very well say that although Jedi was a Christian she was also pro-abortion because abortion was acceptable during her time and she didnot go out and bomb abortion clinics or stone pro-abortionists. Which is to say because a person lived in a time when a thing was acceptable, that makes that person accountable for it, because the person did not go out and commit violent acts to prove their utter rejection of that thing. The Apostles sought to further freedom from slavery of the worst kind.....slavery to sin which is the root of all kinds of slavery.

{Fledgist: Nowhere does the Bible state that slavery is wrong, that turning human beings into property is a crime. That's the thing. I said nothing about the 'apostles' going out and freeing slaves. Do try to make your analogies reasonable.}

Fledgist: You're glad that you can justify a crime against humanity?

Jedi: Slavery is a crime against humanity, and mankind has no one to blame but himself for this. But it took hundreds of years to enlighten the darkened consciences of mankind to this fact. A key player in this enlightenment has been and continues to be the Christian church with all its faulty players and dim witted proselytizers it still stands the only light in a dark universe.[/qb]

Ah yes. I suppose that is why when the Christian church completely dominated Europe it was the Dark Ages.

**britisha** · 02-23-2003, 10:42 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Fledgist, how many times are you going to rehash this topic? We've all heard what you've said ie the Bible condones slavery, and since the Bible is the foundation of Christianity, then Christianity in itself is a bad thing, because of what the Bible stated. That is logical if the Bible didn't demonstrate what Jesus the Christ stated. Love thy neighbour as thyself." We are quoting from the same source.

This command alone neutralises whatever else might be stated about slaves obeying their masters. If this was a good thing, then why is it that it so abhorred as the most despicable crime that one human being can perpetrate on another? One doesn't or didn't need the Bible to tell them that this was just pure wickedness and criminality regardless of what was stated during those times.

Who owned slaves in the Bible and in Africa and in the West? The powerful. Slavemasters didn't need the Bible to tell slaves to obey their masters. They used the whip and the chain and other methods of torture to bring slaves into submission. So the argument that slaves were cajoled or sweet-talked into obeying their masters by using bibical quotes just doesn't make any sense.

Picture the slavemasters saying to the slaves: "Now dears, it is alright for us to hold you in bondage, for the Bible told us to tell you to obey your masters. " Laaawd; what is dis?" And any slave who did believe this could have been suffering post-traumatic-stress syndrome (which many of us still are until today)

where their thinking and judgement becomes clouded to the extent that they could believe anything. Chat 'bout. Other than that, only a stupid slave would buy this, and obviously that was not the case, considering the number of slave revolts and runaway slaves.

I honestly believe that this so-called argument used by atheists and haters of christianity, christians and Jesus, is just looking a copout.

If one asks me, slavemasters used that line about obeying their masters, to satisfy a guilty conscience. They knew it was wrong but to alleviate their guilt, they focused on it, rather than taking personal responsibility for their reprehensible wickedness.

You still haven't addressed slavery under Moslem religion, or modern day slavery in Africa among many who are not christians; black on black slavery. Why not? Is it so ingrained in the culture that it is impossible to eradicate, or the slavemasters are too powerful? Why haven't you addressed the caste system in India? Is this of christian origin? Although this is not tantamount to slavery as experienced by blacks across the diaspora, it is IMHO a social outrage, which is embodied in old culture the way bibically described slavery was.

If you wish that your argument to appear unbiased and impartial, then you cannot negate that these must appear in the big picture...and last but not least if one is a true christian....here goes that word again, one who sees God in his fellowmen, as the Bible teaches, then there is no way in hell that he/she/they would enslave others. One either is or isn't. In the same way that you say that some Christians are hypocrites, then I am saying that any slave master who owned slaves while masquerading as a christian is/was a bloody hypocrite.

**Mutty** · 02-23-2003, 11:10 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person.

After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.

**LadyDayshah** · 02-23-2003, 11:26 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

If an atheist commits such a crime,of which Fledgist is highlighting,would it be unatheist-like of him/her or not even surprising at all????

if an atheist kills a person with a gun and a christian does the same,who is more in the wrong????

**britisha** · 02-23-2003, 11:29 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person.

After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

I remember the thread, and even went on to say that there would be nothing morally wrong with such acts.

**Mutty** · 02-23-2003, 11:38 PM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person.

After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

I remember the thread, and even went on to say that there would be nothing morally wrong with such acts.[/qb]

That's all cool but it would be hypocritical afterwards to become the kettle calling the pot black.

**Tuff Gong** · 02-24-2003, 01:18 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person.

After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

Since we cannot trust your recollection....Please bring up the Thread.
Christians have a way of twisting things around, so I would like to see it in Black and White.

Britisha:....Who owned slaves in the Bible and in Africa and in the West? The powerful. Slavemasters didn't need the Bible to tell slaves to obey their masters. They used the whip and the chain and other methods of torture to bring slaves into submission. So the argument that slaves were cajoled or sweet-talked into obeying their masters by using bibical quotes just doesn't make any sense.

Picture the slavemasters saying to the slaves: "Now dears, it is alright for us to hold you in bondage, for the Bible told us to tell you to obey your masters. " Laaawd; what is dis?" And any slave who did believe this could have been suffering post-traumatic-stress syndrome (which many of us still are until today) where their thinking and judgement becomes clouded to the extent that they could believe anything. Chat 'bout. Other than that, only a stupid slave would buy this, and obviously that was not the case, considering the number of slave revolts and runaway slaves.

I honestly believe that this so-called argument used by atheists and haters of christianity, christians and Jesus, is just looking a copout

Are you stating this as a fact or your opinon.
Either way it was not so in fact the Bible was used to support Slavery, that this can easily be gleaned from Christian Records.

Who are these Atheists and Haters of Christianity who invented this and what are they copping out of?
Christianity not only myurdered and enslaved people, but also interferred with and continue to inteferred with good governance , social and scientific advances of most so called Charistian Country.

Cases in point:
The Roman Catholic Church stone walling of investigations into the rape and torure of kids under the influcene of the Bishops. The continueance of such Rape and Torture, and the cowardly use the courts to avoid paying compensation.

The enslaving of the minds of thousands of people in Jamaica and the interferance with socio-economic strategies that might aid developement.

LadyDayshah: If an atheist commits such a crime,of which Fledgist is highlighting,would it be unatheist-like of him/her or not even surprising at all????

if an atheist kills a person with a gun and a christian does the same,who is more in the wrong????

What the hell are you saying here....Murder is Murder!
What is Atheist like then...what is the disposition of the typical Atheist?

**samuel** · 02-24-2003, 01:32 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

did someone mention the afrikaaners ?

**Mutty** · 02-24-2003, 02:50 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]I seem to vaguely remember someone who is NOT a Christian quoting some nincompoop (seems like it was in agreement) about hanging priests or something to that effect with their own entrails. How "Christian like" of such a person.

After all, it appears only Christians do and think these sought of things.[/qb]

Since we cannot trust your recollection....Please bring up the Thread.
Christians have a way of twisting things around, so I would like to see it in Black and White.

Britisha:....Who owned slaves in the Bible and in Africa and in the West? The powerful. Slavemasters didn't need the Bible to tell slaves to obey their masters. They used the whip and the chain and other methods of torture to bring slaves into submission. So the argument that slaves were cajoled or sweet-talked into obeying their masters by using bibical quotes just doesn't make any sense.

Picture the slavemasters saying to the slaves: "Now dears, it is alright for us to hold you in bondage, for the Bible told us to tell you to obey your masters. " Laaawd; what is dis?" And any slave who did believe this could have been suffering post-traumatic-stress syndrome (which many of us still are until today) where their thinking and judgement becomes clouded to the extent that they could believe anything. Chat 'bout. Other than that, only a stupid slave would buy this, and obviously that was not the case, considering the number of slave revolts and runaway slaves.

I honestly believe that this so-called argument used by atheists and haters of christianity, christians and Jesus, is just looking a copout

Are you stating this as a fact or your opinon.
Either way it was not so in fact the Bible was used to support Slavery, that this can easily be gleaned from Christian Records.

Who are these Atheists and Haters of Christianity who invented this and what are they copping out of?
Christianity not only myurdered and enslaved people, but also interferred with and continue to inteferred with good governance , social and scientific advances of most so called Charistian Country.

Cases in point:
The Roman Catholic Church stone walling of investigations into the rape and torure of kids under the influcene of the Bishops. The continueance of such Rape and Torture, and the cowardly use the courts to avoid paying compensation.

The enslaving of the minds of thousands of people in Jamaica and the interferance with socio-economic strategies that might aid developement.

LadyDayshah: If an atheist commits such a crime,of which Fledgist is highlighting,would it be unatheist-like of him/her or not even surprising at all????

if an atheist kills a person with a gun and a christian does the same,who is more in the wrong????

What the hell are you saying here....Murder is Murder!
What is Atheist like then...what is the disposition of the typical Atheist?[/qb]

You don't have to trust it. I am sure it will rear its ugly head again.

**jedi** · 02-24-2003, 03:07 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

I remember that thread as clearly as I remember the one about bludgeoning all Christians who have contributed by their belief in Christ to the homophobia that led one young man to bludgeon another. You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.

**Tuff Gong** · 02-24-2003, 03:09 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]You don't have to trust it. I am sure it will rear its ugly head again.[/qb]

....okay I will wait.

Samuel the first born brought up a lovely questions: Did someone mention Afrikkaners ?

**Tuff Gong** · 02-24-2003, 03:13 AM

Re: Another reason I am not a Christian

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]....
You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to start saving some of these hate threads in Word for future reference that is.[/qb]

Right I have a few on my hard drive already....and I should have been smart enough a longtime ago to save the ones directed towards me by some of the same participants in the this....orgy of Burning Unbelievers at the Stake .....What happen Church let out?

Another reason I am not a Christian

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