letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

[RichD]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal violence is low in Muslim countries... ie there is violence due to ethnicity and religion.. But walk down a street in poorest Cairo, Tripoli or even Baghdad you are unlikely to be robbed .. </div></div>

what about Mogadishu?

[Wahalla]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal violence is low in Muslim countries... ie there is violence due to ethnicity and religion.. But walk down a street in poorest Cairo, Tripoli or even Baghdad you are unlikely to be robbed .. </div></div>

what about Mogadishu? </div></div> Cant speak from personal experience!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, weh yuh bring up dis ole chread fah, Tuffy? </div></div>

Mi noh kno....mi did a look fi sinting else and mi run into it....then Newtral come forward, the queen argument was front and senta, etc....!

[Blackstar*]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

BOAL! So yuh did fine wat yuh was looking?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BOAL! So yuh did fine wat yuh was looking? </div></div>

LOL..more than what I was looking for as you can see this come up!

[Q3210]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

What is wrong with Jamaica?

1/ Michael Manley and the so-called socialist experiment.
The `76 state of emergency.
PNP and Spy Robinson in bed together with others like Tony Spaulding, Feather Mop, Burry Boy, the 2 from East who ran away to cuba, T Welch jumping in for the romp.

2/ PJ Patterson, Motties schoolmate who didnt go to school with Motty. The leader who led from behine.

3/ Mother P, who wasted time changing corrupt smelly diapers of her kid Paulwell.

4/ The private club called the PNP who in general led Jamaica down the garden path into a desert of arrid and infertile ways of thinking and doing things.

[bee_bop]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<span style="color: #CC0000">I would say that Jamaica's problems have a lot to do with governments that misguide people into thinking of 'quick' fixes, like socialism as an example.</span>

<span style="color: #009900">Then we also have the criminals in government that rob the people of their tax money, giving it away to people who are not even Jamaican citizens. How happy those Cubans must have been to be employed in Jamaica to help people with light bulbs? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70379-moneyeyes.gif[/img]
Those bulbs would have been cheaper had they been distributed by regular retailers, and the people from the areas to benefit be given some form of tax rebate.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">This leads to the question, how much taxpayers money has been stolen, misappropriated, or simply unaccounted for by previous governments? No wonder people dodge taxes!!
I don't think the church has anything to do with Jamaica's problems, for one there is separation between church and state, which was meant to prevent abuse by overzealous individuals. Muslims commit crimes themselves, such as: abusing the rights of women; and dismembering the limbs of those they accuse of crimes. Suppose the courts make mistakes? As has happened many times in human history!! </span>

<span style="color: #FF6600">Barbados may have its own problems, but at least people do not fear hunger, and in most cases homelessness. Also crime is a minimum, and employment is not that far away, or difficult to get. Jamaicans, at this time, are having the same problems as Barbadians in terms of access to their beaches. Then the workers are walking off of construction sites in protest against poor conditions of employment, crime is reaching the point where no where is safe anymore. So which is better? And please don't tell me about Cuba, or socialism, that is getting tired!!</span>

[bee_bop]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<span style="color: #990000">One thing the previous administration was famous for is employing companies from outside of Jamaica to do things that Jamaican organizations could have done themselves.</span>

<span style="color: #FF6600">So we see that they employed the services of different outside companies to develop the Highway 2000 project, which has now become Highway 2008!! Yet, if the government was pragmatic, they would have allowed the Parish Councils, or some relevant governemnt organization to use their engineers to widen roads (where necessary), build detours around some towns, and mostly repave the roads. Instead they went overboard building something that I'm sure a lot of people may not see the end of, nor make sense out of.</span>

<span style="color: #993300">There are probably hundreds of millons that the previous administration either; wasted outrightly, or can't give account of. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/dizzy.gif[/img]
So if people become resistant to paying taxes what would anyone expect? They need to have a way of allowing the average taxpayer to see how their hard-earned money is being spent, and to account for huge cost over-runs!! </span>

[johnnycakes]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

Littleman:
". Jamaicans, at this time, are having the same problems as Barbadians in terms of access to their beaches. Then the workers are walking off of construction sites in protest against poor conditions of employment, crime is reaching the point where no where is safe anymore. So which is better? And please don't tell me about Cuba, or socialism, that is getting tired!!

Hey Littleman,
The problems Jamaica has are the problems of most of the Third World.
Jamaica is tied down to neo-liberal capitalism which but for a very few exceptions does not work in heavily-indebted resource poor nations (Third World) which is why leftists are being elected all over Latin America.
Jamaica also has a two-party electoral system that like most capitalist-linked political parties, does not serve the needs of the working people nor the poor.

The economic system and the political systems are totalitarian. They are run from the top down. A small number of people in both parties select and approve the candidates for whom you get to vote. The people who are to be represented by these people do not have a say in who is nominated and neither can they address the shortcomings of the representation until the next election. The politicians owe everything to those who finance them and to the party leadership which can throw them out. They don't have to do squat for the people and they don't.

In a poor country like Jamaica there is a limited amount of wealth and if that wealth is concentrated at the top as it is in a capitalist economy, the wealth does not trickle down to the poorer people nor into the things they should have like good health care, education etc.

Poverty and more specifically the existence of wealth and poverty living side by side breeds resentment.
Poverty and despair breed crime and corruption.

Many Jamaicans would like to believe that the PNP alone is to blame because that would make the problems easy to fix. Simply elect the JLP and PRESTO! the problems will disappear.
That is patent nonsense.
The JLP is no more democratic than is the PNP and they are tied into the same economic system that is failing Jamaica and most of the rest of the Third World.

There are already grumblings on this board about P.M. Golding's inability to get things straightened out and frankly I just do not see what possible cures he and his party can come up with that will have any serious impact on Jamaica's deep rooted problems.

The political and economic systems do not work, have not worked since independence and show no signs of ever working not just in Jamaica but in most other poor countries.

The present political and economic systems are designed to function for the benefit of those at the top and until there is revolutionary change in both areas all the talk and changing of the party in power will only keep things as they are.

Jamaica is like a car stuck in the mud; spinning its wheels furiously, making a lot of noise, expending a lot of energy and getting nowhere.

[Ja. Jewel]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BakYaSoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of misquoting going on here, so I'm not entirely sure who is speaking to whom. &lt;img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /&gt;

Is Bajan a perjorative? Is Barbadian the preferred word? Anyone that knows: your correction would be edifying.

I'm afraid I can't distinguish between real wealth and unreal wealth -- both forms of wealth providing money that spends the same way. If you are saying that the wealth Barbados enjoys is temporary, that doesn't make it any the less valuable. Barbados has done a good job of translating tourism dollars into other industries, like Banking.

I have never been to Barbados, but those I have met abroad have, on the average, been more educated and better prepared to take advantage of capitalist opportunities then the average Jamaican I meet abroad. No matter how you slice and dice it, Barbados' economy is far and away stronger than Jamaica's.

Calling Barbadians lickspittles sounds an awful lot like jealousy to me. Instead, I believe we should be observing the Barbadian model and adapting those things that can benefit Jamaica.

Jamaicans are prideful. That pridefulness helped end slavery in Jamaica, and by extension, throughout the Empire. That is good. But pride goeth before a fall, and we are seeing that form of pride today. Many Jamaicans are too proudful to be gainfully employed, but are not too proudful to take money from their gainfully employed women. Many Jamaicans hang out around tourists to rooks them of their money. To see the amount of hassling that goes on in the tourist areas -- is it any wonder tourists want all inclusives and are afraid to venture out to visit the natives?

It is no use blaming all our country's problems on Britian and white folk. Ultimately, our problems are our own, and only we can solve them, unless we want to join the British Empire again. It's about time we stopped belyaching and did something about it.

In my opinion, the greatest contributors to Jamaicas woes are ignorance, stubborness, and superstition. When combined, these three attributes are so powerful they completely rob Jamaicans of perspective and the ability to see the path through. Politicians and demigogues play on these attributes, which perpetuates the cycle of poverty, crime, and government corruption. </div></div>

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70409-waytogo.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif[/img]

[bee_bop]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<span style="color: #FF0000">JC said: "Jamaica is tied down to neo-liberal capitalism which but for a very few exceptions does not work in heavily-indebted resource poor nations (Third World) which is why leftists are being elected all over Latin America."</span>

<span style="color: #33CC00">Littleman says: I wonder how these countries became indebted? Maybe by not controlling spending compared to expected revenue. Maybe also spending more money on over-bloated militaries, than on social development programs.
Plus, most Latin American countries have more natural and human resources than the prosperous little islands in the Caribbean Sea, and Atlantic Ocean. Yet they perform poorly.</span>

<span style="color: #FFCC00">Another thing, even Jamaica has reasonable health care, most of the common diseases (except AIDS) have been eradicated. Jamaica is more similar to Guyana, on the South American coast, which had its economy plundered by that other former late leftist/socialist: Forbes Burnham, who bankrupted the country, while fattening his own wallet. Everyday that you read the Stabroek News, you hear of violence from gunmen roving the country-side, and desperate, endemic poverty.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF"> I am sure Patterson and company were rewarding themselves well, at the expense of the public purse, including handing out money to their buddies outside Jamaica. Contrast this economic performance to that of well-run economies like that of the Cayman Islands, Barbados, Bermuda, the Bahamas, etc. All these islands are supposed to be poor, with no natural resources, but through careful management of their economies, and sensible politics, they excel. Bermuda has the highest per Capita income in the WORLD today, and they don't have to make excuses as to why they didn't succeed, even though it is against the odds !!</span>

<span style="color: #990000">You might like socialism, and think Cuba does well (your favourite example of a socialist state), but I have first hand account from former visitors to Cuba that say otherwise. Also, the people I know have no reason to lie, as they are not hostile to socialism. I have been told of Cubans being given ONE DOLLAR as a tip, and acting like you gave them a thousand US dollars. One of the Cubans was heard to remark that he would buy groceries with this amount!! Also as the Cubans approached the people I knew, while in Cuba, they let them know that if they were offended in anyway by their approach they should merely calmly ignore them, because there were police all around who were ready to arrest them for tourist harassment if they (the visitors) appeared annoyed. That's your socialist paradise for you, analyze that, and winkle-out any false information, if you will.</span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">JC said: "Jamaica is tied down to neo-liberal capitalism which but for a very few exceptions does not work in heavily-indebted resource poor nations (Third World) which is why leftists are being elected all over Latin America."</span>

<span style="color: #33CC00">Littleman says: I wonder how these countries became indebted? Maybe by not controlling spending compared to expected revenue. Maybe also spending more money on over-bloated militaries, than on social development programs.
Plus, most Latin American countries have more natural and human resources than the prosperous little islands in the Caribbean Sea, and Atlantic Ocean. Yet they perform poorly.</span>

<span style="color: #FFCC00">Another thing, even Jamaica has reasonable health care, most of the common diseases (except AIDS) have been eradicated. Jamaica is more similar to Guyana, on the South American coast, which had its economy plundered by that other former late leftist/socialist: Forbes Burnham, who bankrupted the country, while fattening his own wallet. Everyday that you read the Stabroek News, you hear of violence from gunmen roving the country-side, and desperate, endemic poverty.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF"> I am sure Patterson and company were rewarding themselves well, at the expense of the public purse, including handing out money to their buddies outside Jamaica. Contrast this economic performance to that of well-run economies like that of the Cayman Islands, Barbados, Bermuda, the Bahamas, etc. All these islands are supposed to be poor, with no natural resources, but through careful management of their economies, and sensible politics, they excel. Bermuda has the highest per Capita income in the WORLD today, and they don't have to make excuses as to why they didn't succeed, even though it is against the odds !!</span>

<span style="color: #990000">You might like socialism, and think Cuba does well (your favourite example of a socialist state), but I have first hand account from former visitors to Cuba that say otherwise. Also, the people I know have no reason to lie, as they are not hostile to socialism. I have been told of Cubans being given ONE DOLLAR as a tip, and acting like you gave them a thousand US dollars. One of the Cubans was heard to remark that he would buy groceries with this amount!! Also as the Cubans approached the people I knew, while in Cuba, they let them know that if they were offended in anyway by their approach they should merely calmly ignore them, because there were police all around who were ready to arrest them for tourist harassment if they (the visitors) appeared annoyed. That's your socialist paradise for you, analyze that, and winkle-out any false information, if you will.</span> </div></div>
Where do you get yopur warped view of history??
What do you know about the true history of Guyana?
Was forbes Burnham's government a sicialist one?
And those countries that you proffer as "well-run economies" are nothing but "floater ecinimies". they look good at present,but have no sound econoimic foundation.
They are political economies. In that as long as their economy is under the control of the right race,they will get favoiuyrable evaluation. as in 'proeperous economies".
As long as funds are able to be transfered across borders as easily as they are in the international economy, the only sound and bankable economic system is oone based on developed infrastructure,affordable energy, along with trained high skilled native workers.
Which of those countries posess this combination?

[bee_bop]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

<span style="color: #FF0000">Dr Dudd (the most literate, illustrious one) said: "Where do you get yopur warped view of history??
What do you know about the true history of Guyana?
Was forbes Burnham's government a sicialist one?</span>

<span style="color: #009900">Littleman says: I happen to know a few Guyanese, and from watching documentaries on Guyana. I also know that Forbes Burnham started out as a moderate, but then reverted to socialism after gaining power. He ruled as a virtual dictator, for life, and on his death Guyana reverted to regularly elected leaders. (Here I am assuming the word you use "sicialist" is actually a typo meaning socialist, and the word "yopur" is another typo meaning 'your'. Please inform me if I have erred 'Most Illustrious One'.)</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Dr Dudd (the most literate, illustrious one) said:
And those countries that you proffer as "well-run economies" are nothing but "floater ecinimies". they look good at present,but have no sound econoimic foundation.
They are political economies. In that as long as their economy is under the control of the right race,they will get favoiuyrable evaluation. as in 'proeperous economies".</span>

<span style="color: #009900">Littleman says: If you notice I said, "All these islands are supposed to be poor, with no natural resources." Obviously I am fully aware of their fundamental weaknesses, which makes their success even that <span style="color: #000000">MORE REMARKABLE</span>. Another thing, which economy do you know that isn't, as you would say, <span style="color: #000000">"under the right race?"</span> Even in Cuba, most of the top jobs are held by lighter skinned Cubans, and less attractive jobs, and housing, are offered to darker skinned Cubans. All except for a few blacks whom the Cuban government couldn't ignore, such as: athletes, and other very talented blacks. Mr. Castro isn't so dumb, these people form his power base, because they will not want to lose their privileges.</span>

<span style="color: #CC6600">Most of all, no economy is going to do well, especially where natural resources are scarce, unless care is taken to maintain as balanced a budget as is possible. No matter how racially inclined the economy. After all, Latin America is replete with light-skinned demographics, but poverty, and poorly-run economies are pandemic. Some of them have been right-wing oriented, but still border on extreme poverty, such as Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, etc.
In Jamaica, the then Manley government attempted to finance their reckless socialist experiment through a levy on bauxite exports, this only resulted in Bauxite companies using 24/7 shifts, non-stop operation, even during a strike, over-producing bauxite, and stock-piling it in America, so that Reynolds Ja. Mines could pull-out in a very short time. This would have created a glut in the price of the ore, since supply was independent of demand!!
The smaller, resource deficient islands that I refer to, could not afford to mortgage their future earnings, or to experiment with politics, so they played it safe, and avoided deficits, as much as possible, while concentrating on economic investments.</span>

There is another point about Guyana, it is one of the most resource-rich countries in the British (West Indian) Commonwealth, or even CARICOM, with: oil, gold, diamonds, bauxite, and acres of arable land. Yet this country is extremely impoverished. I know The United Kingdom, was determined to put Cheddi Jagan out of power and even used military force to ensure his earlier demise, and the delay of Guyana's independence. This is an example of a resource-rich country that has not lived-up to what should have been expected of it..

<span style="color: #3366FF">In this message I assumed from the following:
1. ecinimies - is a typo, and you meant economies. As a helpful suggestion, you could type this in a text editor, and use spell-check. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
2. econoimic - this is most likely another typo, and you meant economic, please correct me if I am wrong...
3. favoiuyrable - this also possibly meant favourable...
4. proeperous - this is possibly prosperous, please let me know good Doctor, if I am wrong, after all we are all prone to 'human' error...least of all, you... 'Most Illustrious One'.</span> [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/dizzy.gif[/img]

[johnnycakes]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

Littleman,

The Third World, including Jamaica is resource poor to begin with. That is part of why they are called Third World. They were further impoverished by having what little they have drained out to the richer countries to whom they once belonged.
After independence they stayed with capitalist and then neo-liberal capitalist economies which concentrate what little wealth and resources there are into the hands of a relative few. This has left a big part of the population in perpetual poverty.
The situation was then exacerbated by these poor countries taking out loans to build their economies from the top down (trickle-down) which worked in very very few instances and then left that huge debt to be paid out of the money that would normally go to health care, education, infrastructure, social services, employment.
This goes for the Caribbean countries and the Latin American countries only some of which have valuable resources to be exploited.

Jamaica has reasonable health care?
Not from what I saw firsthand. I knew a Jamaican woman who died from high blood pressure, a treatable condition but who couldn't afford the doctor and I know many Jamaicans with serious dental problems which they cannot afford to deal with. If they have a bad tooth, the cost of a root canal treatment and a crown makes that preferable course of treatment prohibitive and they get the tooth pulled because that's all they can afford. Forget preventive dental care. They can't even afford check-ups.
You should get out more.

I think it's nice that people you know spend money at the tourist destinations in Cuba set up for them. Cuba needs the money. They did have something like 2 million visitors last year. Did your friends happen to mention that the smiling Cubans all had all their teeth? Did they get out into the countryside at all?
Did they visit the schools, local clinics, attend any neighborhood meetings with the local elected representatives, you know, see what life is really like in Cuba?

Or did they, like the people who go to Jamaica and stay at the All-inclusives, just stay by the pool and get waited on and never deal with the real Jamaica??

Deal with the facts.
Jamaica and the Third World is either stagnating or losing ground by keeping capitalism and a totalitarian democratic form of government.

You can rant and rave all you want about the PNP but show me where the JLP is much different.
Come talk to me about this in a few years when the PNP has had it's fair chance to turn things around or go back in history and show me where the JLP has done much more than run up the debt just like the PNP.
Did violence go up or down under the post-Manley era when Reagan's friend Mr. Seaga was in firm control?
Did hospitals and schools improve much?

And Jamaica is not alone. I'm not just pointing out problems peculiar to Jamaica. The problems of Jamaica are epidemic throughout the Third World and the rich are getting richer, the poor poorer and more numerous and there are no solutions that you (or anyone else) can point to under capitalism.
NONE.

How many people were shot and killed in Cuba last year?
How many in Jamaica?

Socialism, the elimination of despair, the spirit of cooperation is what makes Cuba a civil society.
The have and have not of capitalism, the poverty, despair and corruption it produces is what is wrong with Jamaica.

But the worst thing is the blindness of people like you who are so attached to a failed system that you cannot see the solution when it is a right next to you.

[bee_bop]

Re: letter: what is really wrong with Jamaica

Well, I'll say, reading your postings are a little easier on me as I don't have to figure out what the words you write mean...

<span style="color: #CC0000">JC said: "The Third World, including Jamaica is resource poor to begin with. That is part of why they are called Third World. They were further impoverished by having what little they have drained out to the richer countries to whom they once belonged."</span>


<span style="color: #33CC00">From what you have said above, it is hard to understand how Bermuda, as a British dependency, has about twice the per Capita income of the United Kingdom. Also, Barbados started out poorer than Jamaica, as a Third World country, yet has pulled itself out of the morass of Third World poverty. Please explain, since you are so well informed.</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">JC said: The situation was then exacerbated by these poor countries taking out loans to build their economies from the top down (trickle-down) which worked in very very few instances and then left that huge debt to be paid out of the money that would normally go to health care, education, infrastructure, social services, employment</span>

<span style="color: #33CC00">They took out loans and misused them, that's probably why they gave Minister Paulwell the boot, to speak proverbially. Consider folks in his ministry wasting money using methods that could have been done more efficiently through possible subsidies on normal retailed florescent bulbs. Consider even further the amount of out-right stealing that has been going on over the decades, including that under Spyaga, and what will go on in this present administration.</span>

<span style="color: #CC0000">JC said: "Did your friends happen to mention that the smiling Cubans all had all their teeth? Did they get out into the countryside at all?
Did they visit the schools, local clinics, attend any neighborhood meetings with the local elected representatives, you know, see what life is really like in Cuba?
Or did they, like the people who go to Jamaica and stay at the All-inclusives, just stay by the pool and get waited on and never deal with the real Jamaica??"</span>

<span style="color: #009900">I suppose they did a little better than yourself, and actually went to Cuba, and did a little walking around the areas of a city alloted for tourist viewing. As for the teeth conditions of Cubans, you would really be better off going there yourself and querying a few people, maybe if you gave them a few dollars they would allow you to medically examine, for condition of health, their teeth in a close-up, and a few other body cavities, including those not normally open to the light of day. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img] </span>

<span style="color: #CC0000">JC said: "How many people were shot and killed in Cuba last year?"</span>

<span style="color: #33CC00">I don't know, official statistics aren't available, but I have heard that suspicion of stealing in Cuba (for example) can result in an instant execution, no questions asked..the police are judge, jury, and executioner. I have heard of people being shot, for merely trying to escape Cuba. One account I have heard of, from a former U.S. Marine Corpsman, had Cuban snipers in military helicopters, gunning down Cubans trying to flee through Guantanamo Bay.</span>