Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jamaica

[Wahalla]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suh what did happen ? At one point I seemed to recall that Peralto was going to challenge the result but did not ? Did they pull some bamdullo biznes ???? Cause the margin of victory did not reflect the early returns ????

This was one case that I questioned Manelys integrity... </div></div>I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader. </div></div>

i recall that at one point perato was ahead... and I thought that there was a cross party concensus to let a ting happen.. After all Pyrato was awarded with a senate seat and he was a non entity.... Still it seems only you and I have memory of the incident....

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suh what did happen ? At one point I seemed to recall that Peralto was going to challenge the result but did not ? Did they pull some bamdullo biznes ???? Cause the margin of victory did not reflect the early returns ????

This was one case that I questioned Manelys integrity... </div></div>I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader. </div></div>

i recall that at one point perato was ahead... and I thought that there was a cross party concensus to let a ting happen.. After all Pyrato was awarded with a senate seat and he was a non entity.... Still it seems only you and I have memory of the incident.... </div></div>

I was in Grade 2 at the time.

A few days before the election, a group of men in a pick-up truck wielding 'long guns' and machetes, came into our school yard. We were outside playing because it was break time in the morning. I remember vividly the screams from my school mates as the men started going into classrooms; we were all terrified. Later on, I learned that they had come for a teacher who was a JLP activist. They didn't find him at the school, so they went to his house; he wasn't there either, so they burned his house to the ground.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suh what did happen ? At one point I seemed to recall that Peralto was going to challenge the result but did not ? Did they pull some bamdullo biznes ???? Cause the margin of victory did not reflect the early returns ????

This was one case that I questioned Manelys integrity... </div></div>I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader. </div></div>

i recall that at one point perato was ahead... and I thought that there was a cross party concensus to let a ting happen.. After all Pyrato was awarded with a senate seat and he was a non entity.... Still it seems only you and I have memory of the incident.... </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in Grade 2 at the time.

A few days before the election, a group of men in a pick-up truck wielding 'long guns' and machetes, came into our school yard. We were outside playing because it was break time in the morning. I remember vividly the screams from my school mates as the men started going into classrooms; we were all terrified. Later on, I learned that they had come for a teacher who was a JLP activist. They didn't find him at the school, so they went to his house; he wasn't there either, so they burned his house to the ground. </div></div>

Awful war stories. <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Let me be the first to say</span> it happened on both sides but given how this topic got started this is just another stray nail that should have been in the PNP's Coffin which they escaped for so many years.

[Wahalla]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

suh what did happen ? At one point I seemed to recall that Peralto was going to challenge the result but did not ? Did they pull some bamdullo biznes ???? Cause the margin of victory did not reflect the early returns ????

This was one case that I questioned Manelys integrity... </div></div>I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader. </div></div>

i recall that at one point perato was ahead... and I thought that there was a cross party concensus to let a ting happen.. After all Pyrato was awarded with a senate seat and he was a non entity.... Still it seems only you and I have memory of the incident.... </div></div>

I was in Grade 2 at the time.

A few days before the election, a group of men in a pick-up truck wielding 'long guns' and machetes, came into our school yard. We were outside playing because it was break time in the morning. I remember vividly the screams from my school mates as the men started going into classrooms; we were all terrified. Later on, I learned that they had come for a teacher who was a JLP activist. They didn't find him at the school, so they went to his house; he wasn't there either, so they burned his house to the ground.

sounds familiar... but I cant wait for someone to deny that they were socialists... and the pnp was not into violence...it was all the jlp fault... and the PNP got ovr thrown by the cia not voted out by jamaican voters who were sicken of their incompetence, ever increasing stupid blunders and tired of their hacknied cliches...

[Wardob]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<span style="font-weight: bold">“Awful war stories. Let me be the first to say it happened on both sides but given how this topic got started this is just another stray nail that should have been in the PNP's Coffin which they escaped for so many years” </span> Tuff

Bottom line, that’s the true story and should put to rest the whole nonsense, of how Seaga and the JLP and oh I forget the CIA, they did all the evils, Michael and the PNP were victims, they were all saints.

<span style="font-weight: bold">” I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader”…</span> Tuff

Tuff. If you are truly guessing you are a darn good guesser, you got it almost right… …
If the question is why Ryan leave it as it were, and not take it all the way through the courts. I would just say two people came into play here Hugh Shearer due to his closeness to Michael and of course the man they love to hate Edward Seaga who’s opinion from my understanding, you could be quoting.


Respect

[Sinco01]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suh what did happen ? At one point I seemed to recall that Peralto was going to challenge the result but did not ? Did they pull some bamdullo biznes ???? Cause the margin of victory did not reflect the early returns ????

This was one case that I questioned Manelys integrity... </div></div>I don't know what happened but I suspect that a huge stink was not raised because it would not be desirous to have Menlie removed in the circumstances where is Party was decimated and he was the Party Leader. </div></div>

i recall that at one point perato was ahead... and I thought that there was a cross party concensus to let a ting happen.. After all Pyrato was awarded with a senate seat and he was a non entity.... Still it seems only you and I have memory of the incident.... </div></div>


No ..
I was listening to the counts too ..

And wondered why those results stopped coming in ..
just as things were getting interesting ..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

Well Michael is now long gone. Several other leaders have taken his place since the 70's including the new and improved ( read centrist) Michael Manley in the late 80's.

Now that the socialist thug and his minions are gone somehow the violence, corruption and poverty persist.

Now it is most definitely NOT the CIA's doing.
The blame lies with the poverty, with the corrupt multi-party system, with systemic corruption throughout the society and with the same old same old.


Now whose fault it was back in that period does not matter.

The question is what can the Jamaican people do about a bad government and a neo-colonial capitalist economy not well suited to the poor Third World country that is Jamaica ?

As discussed and debated in several other threads there is no ready cure for the economic problems of capitalism within a poor underdeveloped country and the money linked corruption that it engenders. The answer might well be socialism but the Jamaican people are dead set against it.
An honest government would fix things but since the two existing parties are corrupt from top to bottom it is asking the fox/mongoose to guard the hen house.
So...what can be done?

[Sinco01]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Michael is now long gone. Several other leaders have taken his place since the 70's including the new and improved ( read centrist) Michael Manley in the late 80's.

Now that the socialist thug and his minions are gone somehow the violence, corruption and poverty persist.

Now it is most definitely NOT the CIA's doing.
The blame lies with the poverty, with the corrupt multi-party system, with systemic corruption throughout the society and with the same old same old.


Now whose fault it was back in that period does not matter.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The question is what can the Jamaican people do about a bad government and a neo-colonial capitalist economy not well suited to the poor Third World country that is Jamaica ?

As discussed and debated in several other threads there is no ready cure for the economic problems of capitalism within a poor underdeveloped country and the money linked corruption that it engenders. The answer might well be socialism but the Jamaican people are dead set against it.</span>
An honest government would fix things but since the two existing parties are corrupt from top to bottom it is asking the fox/mongoose to guard the hen house.
So...what can be done?





</div></div>


I keep thinking of Rawanda ..
Recently out of civil war ..
and now thriving ..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

Thriving?
Please explain your definition of thriving and how it lines up with the statistics below.


Rwanda
Region: Sub-Saharan Africa
Select a country:
Selected EarthTrends Data:
Variable Value
Gini Index{1} 29
Population living on less than $1/day{2} 52%
Population living on less than $2/day{3} 84%
Poverty Gap $1/day{4} 20%
Poverty Gap $2/day{5} 45%
Access to improved sanitation 42%
Access to an improved water source 74%
Literacy rate, all adults 65%
Life expectancy, both sexes 45 years
Definitions and Sources
{1} Survey year: 1983-5. Based on expenditure.
{2} Survey year: 1999-2000. Based on expenditure.
{3} Survey year: 1999-2000. Based on expenditure.
{4} Survey year: 1999-2000. Based on expenditure.
{5} Survey year: 1999-2000. Based on expenditure.

Poverty resources:
Rwanda - Country assistance strategy (Document)
Rwanda - Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper (PRSP) and joint assessment (Document)
USAID Rwanda Country Office (Project)
World Bank Rwanda Program (Project)

Poverty datasets:
Rwanda - Poverty Data

Citations from the World Resources Report:
The Impact of Civil War on the Conservation of Protected Areas in Rwanda

EarthTrends Country Profiles: (opens pdf in a new window)


World Bank PovertyNet Library: (opens in a new window)

http://povlibrary.worldbank.org/library/country/142

Development Gateway: (opens in a new window)

http://www.developmentgateway.org/countryprofile/?country_iso=RW

Maps

Country poverty map - Rwanda




© 2007 World Resources Institute Contact Us Content licensed under a
C reative Commons License.


This from a later report( much available on Google searching under poverty in Rwanda;

Stats critical in shaping the future
In late 2006, the results from the DFID-backed survey into household living conditions were made available. The survey showed that, although poverty fell from 60% to 57% over the previous five years, a growth in the birth rate saw the number of people living in poverty rise. It was also revealed that a significant portion of Rwandans were living in extreme poverty. A wake-up call to the Government, this data served as the basis for its new strategy for reducing poverty. The priorities in the years ahead will therefore be: to speed up poverty reduction; to increase economic growth; to reduce population growth; and to tackle extreme poverty.
Through solid statistical information, the Government has been able to identify the country's major needs, and form its agenda around them. As the work of the Institute progresses, and it gathers more information about the state of Rwanda, the Government should have more evidence to base its policies on - policies that should better meet the needs of Rwanda's people.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Michael is now long gone. Several other leaders have taken his place since the 70's including the new and improved ( read centrist) Michael Manley in the late 80's. </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">LOL</span> depend on you can we to change the subject?

Invariably these topics comparing or attempting o compare, a fictional Menlie to the PNP's version of Edward Seaga always gets started by the Menlie supporters.
They then launch numerous attacks on Edward Seaga and Jamaicans using the same old wives tales and Conspiracy Theories. Invariably when called upon to prove it, they cannot and by the end of the post the Menlie is laid to out to bed and the topic is vivaciously changed to Government and Jamaica's Poverty.

The problem with Jamaica now is rooted in the corrupt practices of PNP Governments of the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2K. The PNP while in Government have been so corrupted that they have crippled every institution and beau racy in Jamaica and left the country as a failed State.
Not only have they destroyed agencies of the State but also they chased massive amounts of talent out of Jamaica leaving only the inept, the similarly corrupted and/or the inexperienced to enter the leadership vacuum.

The JLP having spent less than 2 terms since the 70s in command and all the years in Opposition fighting among themselves, have never been able to get traction and maintain it and as we can see now they just don't have the talent or the imagination to advance the ball beyond their line of defense.
What is needed is new blood all round, it is clear that we have not even began to climb out of the hole the Menlie and his gang dug for us and PJoke buried us in.

[Wahalla]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

I always felt that the rhetoric never reflected teh reality...And too many on here who have had no adult experneice of the PNP experiment.. And are too caught up with cliches that are popularist trusim... The reality of manley was imho incompetence.... not the idealism that some many think would better jamaica...

I went head to head with JLP activist when I told them they could not vote for a leader who ignore his brutes threathen and scare schoolers....

But that Shearer was close to manley to keep the lines of communication open....
imagine if manley had been taken out the equation by losing that election at that point how different Jamaica would be... The left have destroyed the

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff. If you are truly guessing you are a darn good guesser, you got it almost right… …
If the question is why Ryan leave it as it were, and not take it all the way through the courts. I would just say two people came into play here Hugh Shearer due to his closeness to Michael and of course the man they love to hate Edward Seaga who’s opinion from my understanding, you could be quoting.


Respect
</div></div>

Edward Seaga:

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Change without chaos</span> one of the worse moves the JLP ever made.
Elections have consequences and if you don't want to win don't play.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

All right, now that we've changed the subject and it seems generally agreed that neither the PNP nor the JLP are worth spit, what then is to be done?

What are the political and/or economic solutions to Jamaica's many problems.

What are the causes and if the two parties' incompetence is so blatantly obvious why then do the Jamaican people vote these people back in albeit alternatively again and again?

Are there solutions under capitalism and then what sort of capitalism?

[Morpheous]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All right, now that we've changed the subject and it seems generally agreed that neither the PNP nor the JLP are worth spit, what then is to be done? </div></div>
First get rid of the garrisons and their supporters.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All right, now that we've changed the subject and it seems generally agreed that neither the PNP nor the JLP are worth spit, what then is to be done?
</div></div>No <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you have attempted to change the subject </span>but as you can see from the answer below it all comes back to the PNP long years of corrupt manipulation of the Political System in Jamaica. Capitalism has been a whole lot more successful than Socialism, but neither Capitalism nor Socialism is going to succeed under a corrupt Government lasting 25 years that has been corrupt since day one and was corrupt even till their last day in office.

The problem is not the two Party System nor Capitalism the problem is the unmitigated corrupt use of power by the PNP for 25 years that it has spent it power since 1972.