Jamaicans Abroad

[Hopyoneson]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my question is, that spirit, that “thing”, that has allowed us to influence the world, why have we not translate it into real power…especially where have huge numbers.
</div></div>

Jamaicans are a gifted people, the body of work speaks for itself. However you mention we have huge numbers. But no one knows how many Jamaicans or Caribbean people are in the US. Before we dismiss this as a trivial fact, the 2010 census will determine how approximately $300 + billion in federal aid is allocated for the next decade.

Second we have to do some economic level setting see the link from a 2002 US census wealth and asset distribution census.gov/www/wealth/2002/

Keep in mind since that time we had the great recession so the numbers have gotten worse but based on that data 48% of the blacks in that census had a net worth of 0 - 5,000. Let that number sink in almost 50% of blacks had enough wealth to purchase a used late model honda civic ex ...cash.

There is no silver bullet for the question you are asking but we can discuss and maybe learn more from each other the root of this issue without giving in to the temptation of being divisive. Jamaicans on average do tend to have higher home ownership as a sub group so our net worth could be higher, that being said I make an analogy to the guy in the boat rowing like crazy when his crew tell him &quot;we&quot; sprung a leak, but he does not care because his position in the boat is a little further ahead than the rest of the crew.

Very good read here on the home ownership expereince for different immigrants in Queens..a bit dated but still relevant and could add to the discussion Immigrant Koreans and Dominicans in Northern Queens

[Hopyoneson]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

Substitute Jamaican and it is uncanny


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They knew of Dominican immigrants who continued to view their stay in the United States as a short-term one
made primarily for the quick accumulation of assets, even when it extended over decades.

Their aspirations centered on a home in the Dominican Republic, even when rational calculations indicated that a home in the United States would make better sense financially
and socially </div></div>

vs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A closely related finding revealed perhaps the most pronounced difference between the Koreans and the Dominicans: each group’s expectations about the permanence of their
emigration decisions. A Korean family that was thinking of emigrating to the United States typically went through a very difficult decision about whether to move away from friends and relatives. Once the decision was made, they generally sold everything and moved to America, presumably to stay here forever</div></div>

Maybe one of the root cause Jaminded observe is Jamaicans think America is just a place to mek some money while some of the other immigrants think in more final terms and make home here..who knows

[britisha]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I live in Brooklyn,NY...home to more J'cans than many Parishes combined. Yet, here we have no political power, leadership or institutions (cultural, educational or financial) to speak of. While there are a few individual successes, collectively, we are stagnant while other groups are

As clarification I have lived in Brooklyn for 38 years since I was 13 years old. What I am alluding to here is how other Caribbeans, at least here in New York, view Jamaicans: trend setters; big Island folks; hip; a notch up on the sophistication ladder.</div></div>

It is ironic that other Caribbean immigrants would view Jamaicans as trend setters, and in the next breath you are saying that they surpass us economically and otherwise....which one is it? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Think about it, Jamaica has had a profound influence on American culture, perhaps world culture, in terms of speech, dress, dance, food, etc. And of course, we have made our mark in sports.</div></div>

I think this is just your observation...if you interview the average Trini or Bajan (especially) in the street, he would disagree with you...

So far you have made some rather bold statements without providing or citing any proof or stats to validate what you are saying...while Reggae has made it's mark on the world stage, and Dreads have influenced to an extent how we [some of us] wear our hair..&quot;Culture&quot; is a very heavy word with many connotations to different people.

Other ethnicities might/will disagree with you and not take too kindly to what you are implying, that Jamaican culture has influenced theirs...[in fact, many just see us as weed smokers and possees..some even throw it in our teeth on the job]


It is nice to big up where yuh come fram...but let's keep things in proper perspective here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But over my 38 years I’ve seen the emergence of the Hispanics, Koreans, Vietnamese, Russians ; Chinese; Pakistani; Indians…you name it. Many of whom rose to economic heights from our purchasing power.</div></div>

*Me* personally, don't care what economic heights any of these people achieve..and again, many would question what you mean by &quot;economic heights&quot; without providing numbers..if we don't choose to spend our money with them, then we can take our bizniz elsewhere...it is as simple as that...Should we envy them, is that what you are saying?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These groups have their own lending institutions, institutions of learning; business corridors and voting blocks.</div></div>

what do you mean by &quot;voting blocks?&quot; Spell it out for me please...

Back to these groups and their businesses..from observation, what business do these people usually invest in? Let's leave out the &quot;Hispanics&quot; for a moment..

* Koreans - dry cleaning, fruits and vegetable stalls [green grocers, taken over from the Jews] and now [dirty] nail salons. Fake hair and hair goods stores..

* Chinese, who were here since the year of #1...[so I don't see where you see an &quot;emergence&quot;]..always, or for the most part, invest in &quot;Chinese laundries&quot; where they wash people's dirty clothes, or Chinese restaurants....now they are getting into the &quot;dollar store&quot; bizniz..See a few of their acupuncture business...and sell Chinese herbs and products...

* Pakistanis/??Indians..mostly yellow cab business [taken over from the Jews again, who btw still own mucho thousand dollar medallions and rent them to the immigrants] where they slave for up to 16 hours a day...now I am seeing where they do advertise about their &quot;mortgage banks&quot; but that is relatively new....Many own the newspaper kiosks at the street corners and in the subway and even airports ..and many are now entering the &quot;real estate&quot; market. Indian restaurants is a biggie for them as well.

* Back to Hispanics...if you are talking Dominicans, well, it would help if you itemise or illustrate more clearly what &quot;investments&quot; that gives them &quot;economic heights&quot; that you are talking of..As far as *I* can see...they mostly invest in beauty/hair dressing parlours, while the men run &quot;gypsy cabs'..

..As for the Puerto Ricans, can't leave them out...they are a part of America, so you should have clarified what the broad term &quot;Hispanic&quot; really means and even specify who you are referring to, if your argument must carry any weight..

* Mexicans...well they made their mark in California and Texas.

* Puerto Rican..From observation, I haven't seen any thing special about their achievements in New York compared to other ethnic groups. A significant amount of them. ie 3rd and 4th generations are still collecting welfare; simply becozz they feel that they are &quot;whooops, here comes that wurd &quot;ENTITLED&quot;...because America has done them wrongly.

Vietnamese..mostly restaurants, from what *I*'ve seen...

this could drag on..

* Russians...a significant amount of them are on welfare as well...and are a burden to the Health care system, because many of them come with problems from the Chernobyl fallout, and language barrier, cannot find jobs. [check the appropriate archives]

<span style="font-weight: bold">In NYC, the only black bank was on 125th Street Carver National, and the only Puerto Rican/Latino bank was Banco Popular</span>...the couldn't even provide mortgages for blacks and Puerto Ricans in those times...<span style="font-style: italic">


Carver was founded in 1948 to serve African-American communities whose residents, businesses and institutions had limited access to mainstream financial services. Today, Carver is the largest African-American operated bank in the United States.</span>

So if after over so many centuries, and PR being a US possession...they lacked &quot;power&quot; to a certain extent in the face of discrimination etc etc which btw still exists, not to mention the anti-immigrant sentiment that still plagues America...so you need to clarify what &quot;power&quot; these other immigrant groups possess..now..<span style="font-style: italic">


This is NOT to say that these groups don't have bigger and even better investments/achievements that are not easily visible to the average Joe. In China Town in the City, where the Chinese are concerned, that is another ball game; a State within a State if you will...they have their own banks/medical offices etc...but then that is in &quot;China Town&quot; where there are millions of Chinese, with a common bond; <span style="font-weight: bold"> language.</span></span>

Now, tell me, which MIGRANT Jamaican does anyone know of who would want to be a &quot;green grocer&quot;, cutting yellow yam, to keep it looking fresh, trimming callaloo, picking out rotten tomatoes, slicing papaya, bagging thyme...you got the drift...who would want to do that for 16 hours per day? this is what the Koreans do, these are family run businesses that sometimes incorporate the labour of the entire family to keep them afloat...some of them are 24 hour run operations...so go figgah...and they lose a lot of money from spoilage.

Which MIGRANT Jamaican does anyone know of who would want to &quot;take in dirty laundry?&quot; working out of these &quot;holes in the wall&quot; day in and day out? Which one?

Even the &quot;dry cleaning&quot; business has it's down side...what is the profitability of running such an operation TODAY? What are the health risks?? Now they have resorted to &quot;taking in dirty laundry as well&quot;...looks as if that might pay more by the pound. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Hence they enjoy the benefits of power.</div></div>

Just what are you talking about? Which power? Where?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We for the most part are still regarded as either happy dancing natives…rum and roti--as a friend so poignantly puts it or entrepreneurs of the nefarious kind.</div></div>

I think the &quot;rum and Roti&quot; refers to or should include Trinidadians...&quot;roti&quot; was never one of our foods from Jamaica...I think you have your people mixed up, or you left too long to remember...&quot;entrepreneurs of the nefarious type?&quot; Oh really? If that is what your friend said, what did you tell him about your achievements in America as a rebuttal, or did you just agree with him/her and said &quot;Irie Mon&quot; <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I thought we were smarter than that. I thought by now we would have figured out that the individual can survive here but true empowerment comes through collective action..…that’s really how America works.</div></div>

Political Science 101 or better yet High School Poly Sci..it is common knowledge that in Unity there is strength, and people are better off if they &quot;fight* or challenge the system as a group...but having said that, what &quot;empowerment&quot; do you want to see JAMAICANS achieve?

Since your argument implies that Jamaicans in Brooklyn lack empowerment, what is it that they would achieve, had they have this empowerment? Talk to me..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So my question is, that spirit, that “thing”, that has allowed us to influence the world, why have we not translate it into real power…especially where have huge numbers.
</div></div>

Now yuh gone to talk about &quot;spirit&quot;...I rest my case !!!

As I said before, the reason why people migrate has a lot to do with what they wish to achieve when they reach the new country...in the case of many Jamaicans, mekking two shilling an run back home..Language plays a very key role in how people, once they migrate tend to associate and strategise for survival...America is the land of opportunity and all that needs to happen is one to hear something, and it spreads like wild fire in the native language, whether it is true or not.


People with language barriers tend to form their own enclaves/strongholds and look out for each other as compared to those in mainstream who don't feel threatened by the language...[membah di man whey shot up di place upstate di odda day] I'm glad that your examples show ethnic groups that have a common denominator, viz <span style="font-weight: bold">language</span>...so they have NO choice but to support and enrich businesses that understand them, even if they rob them.

The establishment is not so quick to ruffle them, <span style="font-weight: bold">as a group</span>individually, maybe, for the simple reason that they don't understand them...*just an observation,* and this is why *I* mentioned the Haitians who are conveniently absent from the discussion..<span style="font-weight: bold"> Do you remember how the US dept of Health backed off the notion that Haitians were the transmitters of the HIV virus after they demonstrated and were very vocal? Do you remember? THAT IS POWER!!</span>..when you can get the *powers that be* to back off !!!!!!!

IMO Jamaicans as a whole don't see the need to con-join with other Jamaicans to achieve their economic dreams.

Haitians have more economic power than most if not all the other West Indian groups in Brooklyn...one reason being their numbers, the other their <span style="font-weight: bold">language</span>..check their furniture stores, rental properties, clothing stores, bric a brac, beauty salons, Tax offices, law offices, medical clinics, dentists...check them,..oh I forgot restaurants and night clubs..and their gypsy fleets and see where they rank among other West Indians...why did you leave them out of the equation?

Check Hatrexco and CAM..multi-million if not billion industry..money transmitters


..had the discussion centered around migrant groups in the tri-state area, it would have even more significance, since parts of Queens for example, are so heavily populated by certain groups eg Koreans and Indians, Latinos, there are signs directions on businesses and even in the hospitals in their *own* language...but to speak of only Brooklyn limits the discussion immensely..

.and in China Town for example, although these people *own* a business, they are literally broke...the exorbitant rents...[recently in the newspapers at $12,000 dollars per month with upfront fees of up to $80,000 dollars currently being investigated by the government] they can barely survive...<span style="font-style: italic">the grass always look greener on the other side </span> Gwaan ova dere and look at the weeds....if as business owners they have economic power, why is it that their OWN GROUP OF CHINESE are giving them the shaft, and they can do NOTHING about it? Saw about 6 of them protesting last week, 6 out of the millions... it was sad and brought tears to my eyes.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I live in Brooklyn,NY...home to more J'cans than many Parishes combined. Yet, here we have no political power, leadership or institutions (cultural, educational or financial) to speak of. While there are a few individual successes, collecively, we are stagnant while other groups are progressing.

Do we immigrate and lose certain values? </div></div>

1st have you looked around to see if there are political organizations in Brooklyn?

2nd you say emigrate and lost certain values...how so? Would the Jamaicans living in Brooklyn be any more organized if they had remain in Jamaica?

3rd you seem to be equating organizing in a group with making progress as an individual. Is it that necessary to be organized to make progress?

4th from my overstanding the Jamaican voting block, to the extent that they vote as a block is very powerful in Brooklyn and other Boroughs when taken together. Am I right or wrong?

5th if you do find that there is a need for organizations or more organizations why don't you try to form one or two? </div></div>

As clarification I have lived in Brooklyn for 38 years since I was 13 years old. What I am alluding to here is how other Caribbeans, at least here in New York, view Jamaicans: trend setters; big Island folks; hip; a notch up on the sophistication ladder.

Think about it, Jamaica has had a profound influence on American culture, perhaps world culture, in terms of speech, dress, dance, food, etc. And of course, we have made our mark in sports.
But over my 38 years I’ve seen the emergence of the Hispanics, Koreans, Vietnamese, Russians ; Chinese; Pakistani; Indians…you name it. Many of whom rose to economic heights from our purchasing power. These groups have their own lending institutions, institutions of learning; business corridors and voting blocks. Hence they enjoy the benefits of power. We for the most part are still regarded as either happy dancing natives…rum and roti--as a friend so poignantly puts it or entrepreneurs of the nefarious kind.

I thought we were smarter than that. I thought by now we would have figured out that the individual can survive here but true empowerment comes through collective action…that’s really how America works.

So my question is, that spirit, that “thing”, that has allowed us to influence the world, why have we not translate it into real power…especially where have huge numbers.
</div></div>Hold the thougt, I will be forward to answer, I got to go take care of a few things!

[blugiant]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I live in Brooklyn,NY...home to more J'cans than many Parishes combined. Yet, here we have no political power, leadership or institutions (cultural, educational or financial) to speak of. While there are a few individual successes, collecively, we are stagnant while other groups are progressing.

Do we immigrate and lose certain values? </div></div>

sund like yu need fii educate yuself betta pon de powafull jamaicans politrixxstahs inna brooklyn. goo doo sum research ann cum betta pon dat. mii doan feel like fii edukkate yu pon dat

jamaican institutions (cultural, educational or financial. yu ear ear bout carlos russel blakk solidaritee day ann see de jamaican link. again yu need fii educate yuself betta pon dat

oww yu gitt jamaicans as a group inn brooklyn stagnant?

now yu qwestian dat wii lose certian values wen wii immigrate iss valid butt y wood yu xxpekk us fii retain awl de values fram jamaica? retain wat wukk ann disscard de values dat doan wukk soo dat wii bettar able fii progress

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

Not ot mention Govnr patterson.

[blugiant]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not ot mention Govnr patterson. </div></div>


mii read inna a papah dat nick perry wan state senator inn new yark wass de whipp inn de ny senate

mii juss waan fii see iff jaminded wood doo a likkle research pon sum aff de jamaicans inn position aff powa ann see iff imm modeefyy imm argument

[rufian]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-size: 20pt">trouble is baack </span> </div></div>


<span style="font-size: 26pt">spelling troubles indeed </span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakkgiant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not ot mention Govnr patterson. </div></div>


mii read inna a papah dat nick perry wan state senator inn new yark wass de whipp inn de ny senate

mii juss waan fii see iff jaminded wood doo a likkle research pon sum aff de jamaicans inn position aff powa ann see iff imm modeefyy imm argument </div></div> The type of people who post thse type of topics are really people who have a plan and just try to use this means as somesort of gorilla marketting probe. they do it all over the place and will get a few people,agree butjustenough to start theer project. Look out for the newsn report on it. paid news too but unless you read th fine pr9nt you would never know.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-size: 20pt">trouble is baack </span> </div></div>


<span style="font-size: 26pt">spelling troubles indeed </span> </div></div> How is my good friend doing today??

[rufian]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is my good friend doing today?? </div></div>
he say dog step in something

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is my good friend doing today?? </div></div>
he say dog step in something </div></div>You start already,and you justreach??
maKING trouble that is

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAminded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I thought we were smarter than that. I thought by now we would have figured out that the individual can survive here but true empowerment comes through collective action…that’s really how America works. </div></div>Well I was merely questioning the reason for equating progress with collective organization.
I would think progress is up to the individual.
Even though Asians, Hispanics and other ethnic groupings are powerful blocks and they are more organized I still think when they get home form their meetings <span style="font-style: italic">(if they hold them)</span> the individual still measure progress by his or her own forward march while taking collective pride in number of establishments and accomplished souls amongst his or her ranks.

It would hardly be of any use for the whole to look good but the individual did not improve his or her personal standing and well being. Which is my point of departure to explain Jamaicans.
In the first place on the Rock apart from the Chinese, Indians, bodies such as the nurses, firemen, police, churches and other service organizations Jamaicans themselves are not organized within Jamaica and having missed the Ellis Island rush there are significant mass of Jamaicans that came over and either bonded on the way or during the process at Island. The closest thing to a mass exodus was the 70s, then most Jamaicans were so politically polarized and so consumed with each economic survival, that organizing was the least of all the things on their minds.

To go forward nearly a century ago there were a number of West Indian Organizations and at least one political organization connected with the PNP. Since we have stop considering our selves a West Indians, I suspect most of those Orgs have falling by the wayside.
Yet if you look closely there is still a lot of quasi-Orgs around.... The church, Golden Krust Bakery, the verandahs of the Bx, Bk and the various places where Jamaicans gather to socialize, these are the organizations and if you belong to one it would be a good place to start organizing in the manner you think we need to.

Going forward to the Asians and Hispanics, I would look a little closer into it if I were you. In relation to Hispanics the one organization that is the magnet is Catholic Church and its Missions that operate in the home country just as it does in the new country.
Asians have a long history of Tongs, Triads and other Benevolent Societies that <span style="font-style: italic">(like the Catholic Church)</span> are active inside and outside of the their Legal Borders.
I think one of our greatest resources is being squandered that is the Jamaican Diplomatic Missions abroad. I think they are worthless to the needs of Jamaicans who travel and/or reside abroad. The Diplomatic Missions should be the conductor that melds the various voices in the Jamaican Community into an orchestra.

[Dr_Mck]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Maybe one of the root cause Jaminded observe is Jamaicans think America is just a place to mek some money while some of the other immigrants think in more final terms and make home here..who knows </div></div>

Indeed the notion of lack of permanency to emigration is an interesting one and begs further inquiry as to how such a mindset could ultimately impact collective action.

I would have to conclude that a significant number of Caribbean immigrants--speaking anecdotally of those I encounter in the course of my work-- certainly not conclusions derived from any body of scientific work--operate from the perspective that their stay in America is less than permanent. Ironically, even some who have been in the US for decades. Many have not become citizens yet pay taxes, have children, own homes and business and yet have no vote or voice in the policies that govern their lives or the future of their children.

It was suggested in this string that language promotes unity among Haitians for example and explains, at least in part why Jamaicans might have difficulty uniting. The power of language as a balkanizing force is understandable and makes sense. However, it probably operates as a push factor for unity. But what about the pull factor of other aspects of a culture: music, dance, food, folklore, morals, values, etc. Why would language as a singular cultural influence outweigh all these even when taken collectively?

It was even suggest that collectivity might not be a vehicle to empowerment and even if Jamaicans garnered political and economic power…what would they do with it? I am not sure if this question was designed for levity but power gives people the ability to make changes favorable to their wellbeing.

I am of the notion that if the Jamaican Diaspora had real power where we live perhaps we could influence not only foreign policy toward the Island but impact the internal policies of Jamaica for the better.

Since I’m new to this board I am not sure if this discussion was placed in the proper forum. Is there is a desire to bring this string to a comedic end?

[rufian]

Re: Jamaicans Abroad

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is my good friend doing today?? </div></div>
he say dog step in something </div></div>You start already,and you justreach??
maKING trouble that is </div></div>

How is this making trouble? Explain, I would like to have your point of view. I didnt notice my absence either