Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging story

[rudemonk]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gourmet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What role would be left for the Govt whose #1 responsibility is to protect the lives of it's citizens regardless of race and background </div></div>
That is what a government SHOULD do, but do you really think that that is the priority of the jamaican government? </div></div>

at a certain point, my feeling is, what the government can do or can not do is almost irrelevant. If they need help to do their job, then so be it. That is just the reality. People can wring hands all day long and nothing will change, sometimes you have to not only lead the horse to water, but stick his muzzle in the water and twist his sack to make him drink. Personally, I got tired of waiting for people to do what they should do and just moved forward. Most people want the exact same thing, what Americans defined as self evident inalienable truths. This is easy to see.

The best kind, the most meaningful kind of transformative change, always comes from the grass roots and individuals whose efforts towards common goals converge. implementing ''solutions' which will only make the government's impossible job that much harder, seems completely self defeating.

[britisha]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

....and here we go again, beating the old dead horse with useless rhetoric...PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL YOUR PARLIAMENTARIANS FOR A START...that wasn't too hard now, was it?

I double dare !!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gourmet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What role would be left for the Govt whose #1 responsibility is to protect the lives of it's citizens regardless of race and background </div></div>
That is what a government SHOULD do, but do you really think that that is the priority of the jamaican government? </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">at a certain point, my feeling is, what the government can do or can not do is almost irrelevant. If they need help to do their job, then so be it. That is just the reality. People can wring hands all day long and nothing will change, sometimes you have to not only lead the horse to water, but stick his muzzle in the water and twist his sack to make him drink. Personally, I got tired of waiting for people to do what they should do and just moved forward.</span> Most people want the exact same thing, what Americans defined as self evident inalienable truths. This is easy to see.

The best kind, the most meaningful kind of transformative change, always comes from the grass roots and individuals whose efforts towards common goals converge. implementing ''solutions' which will only make the government's impossible job that much harder, seems completely self defeating.
</div></div>
<span style="font-size: 11pt"> As usual the emotional detachment eventually exposed ugly it's head. Now you tell me if this was happening in your neighborhood, if you would not expect first the police, then the local government,then the state,and eventually the federal government to act. As long as it does not involve white people it is &quot;it is up to the people', and we can't do nothing.
Well guess what, that is why no foreigner has ever improved the situation in Jamaica. They always come with the same failed tools they use to fool around with racial problem manifesting as gang violence,, degenerated neighborhoods,etc.
The problem is that when you go to Jamaica,you see a lot of blacks in these situations. What you don't see is,that the intervention used to manage those problems in the US does not work. So it is obvious that you will offer them in Jamaica. Guess what,, we have heard them, we have sen the foreigners, come and do what many of use have done in communities to move them forward before and failed.We also know the eventual result,but we simply sit back and watch. Why do you think most Jamaicans that can help do not? You think it is all because the are selfish?
No Sir, it is because they know something that you do not know.
Something that is ignored by some who know and is hidden by those who perpetuate it.
It is that these people are intentionally kept in the position they are in. even if they try,only a very small minority will every get out. It is not an accident, it is a design. Their is machinery in place to cull those who show aptitude to change the situation, and sabotage those programs that could change it.
Jamaica does not have a gang problem. It has a problem that gangs and Penmanship are only one of the symptoms.
We cannot solve the problem that cause a full third of the population not able to have a legal residence as a gang problem. these people who do not have legal abodes, did not just happen. It has always bean there. The 1865 riots that caused the Morant Bay massacre,was the result of same problem. The people did not have lands to live on.Since 1865, there has been no effective national policy to solve that problem. They hace policies to help the employed, bu what percentage of those people qualifies?
there is no policy of a right to live under certain minimum standards. There is not even any real strategy to house these people. One thing I can tell you is that this does not happening any country where the victims are white. I wonder why

This has ben used to support the baseless idea that people do not want to improvethemselves. This is because in siuations wher whites has ben faced with such proiblems, They have the support of [b]the whole society. whereas when blacks are the voctims, they only get lukewarnm support.
It is known and accepted that any spociety without enpough means to maintain their security,has laways been disposessed of their property, dognity and even existence. The Indigineous Americans ,The maori of New Zealand,and The aboroigines of australia and only the tip of theiceberg. take a look at the Comntinent of Afroica and the only olace wher they developed any economic strength, is the only group that that developed economic strength, are th eones wit arms,. The only place where it is still imnjexistence is the poalce wher thewhites are still allowed to bear arms. So say what you wish. I haveheard it before. In never influence my view, because iut has no basis in facts. neigher does it follow logical reason.
The only difference between the Jews that disposes the Arabs of their loand in Isreal, was arms and the absence of it. Or inferior arms later. But originally it was all about The armed against the unarmed. Or later the well armed against the poorly armed. </span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....and here we go again, beating the old dead horse with useless rhetoric...PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL YOUR PARLIAMENTARIANS FOR A START...that wasn't too hard now, was it?

I double dare !! </div></div> <span style="font-size: 11pt"> Last night someone sent me the link to the call in program to the prime minister,and I was appalled about the percentage of time used up by people who are making requests that would more efficiently be dealt with by an effective department staffed by bureaucrats.
I can't remember one item of national import that was discussed.
everybody was calling about their personal domestic problems.

I just couldn't bring myself to call and interrupt what seem to be very foreign to me.
True to maslow's laws,the majority is so tied up with just doing what we take for granted in living, that they have no time to call about the systemic problems that are destroying the country. We certainly have to deal with the little things that re in the way of getting the people to concentrate on the bigger picture. </span> /

[rudemonk]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

the extreme joke of it is, you're totally wrong and I'd go so far as to say off your rocker. That GB is planning on coming back to take over Jamaica is rich.

Anyway the underlying premises of your arguments and the solutions you offer have never made sense and it never will while it is one which you have with yourself. it's a boring, inept, hand wringing script.

foreignors? what the hell are you talking about. I'm talking about community based initiatives organized by community leaders who are addressing the ROOT problem.

there are PLENTY of programs which are not implemented by foreignors AT ALL which are successfully transforming communities and individuals within those communities. this idea you have that programs which are successful in other nations can't work in Jamaica is <span style="font-style: italic">also</span> rubbish. It ignores the universality of the human condition, which if you travel a bit robs you of such ignorance. Or it should. As if 2+2=4 ONLY in L.A. Or only in South Africa. Of course every place has it's unique set of circumstances only a dolt would think otherwise, but that is not to ignore the legacy and intrinsic inheritance which all humanity possesses. That is why you can look on earthquake victims in China and feel sorrow.

Basically you don't know what you are talking about. it's the difference between knowing something from applying it and just thinking about it.

I've been saying that the gangs are not the problem, they are a result of the problem. But as usual, I'm off your script so you plod on, then introduce a lot of what I just said like it was never typed out.

Secondly, I'm sure I am not alone that as soon as the garbled words come, I don't bother to slog through them. You don't bother to type them. A suggestion, all due respect, why not post less and just take some more time to make the posts you are making come correct.

[rudemonk]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The people did not have lands to live on.Since 1865, there has been no effective national policy to solve that problem. They hace policies to help the employed, bu what percentage of those people qualifies?
there is no policy of a right to live under certain minimum standards. There is not even any real strategy to house these people. One thing I can tell you is that this does not happening any country where the victims are white. I wonder why
</div></div>

The answer to your question is because you are ignorant of the history of IRELAND and GERMANY and I could go on but what is the point.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the extreme joke of it is, you're totally wrong and I'd go so far as to say off your rocker. That GB is planning on coming back to take over Jamaica is rich.

Anyway the underlying premises of your arguments and the solutions you offer have never made sense and it never will while it is one which you have with yourself. it's a boring, inept, hand wringing script.

foreigners? what the hell are you talking about. I'm talking about community based initiatives organized by community leaders who are addressing the ROOT problem.

there are PLENTY of programs which are not implemented by foreignors AT ALL which are successfully transforming communities and individuals within those communities. this idea you have that programs which are successful in other nations can't work in Jamaica is <span style="font-style: italic">also</span> rubbish. It ignores the universality of the human condition, which if you travel a bit robs you of such ignorance. Or it should.
As if 2+2=4 ONLY in L.A. Or only in South Africa. Of course every place has it's unique set of circumstances only a dolt would think otherwise, but that is not to ignore the legacy and intrinsic inheritance which all humanity possesses. That is why you can look on earthquake victims in China and feel to Jamaica and sorrow.

Basically you don't know what you are talking about. it's the difference between knowing something from applying it and just thinking about it.

I've been saying that the gangs are not the problem, they are a result of the problem. But as usual, I'm off your script so you plod on, then introduce a lot of what I just said like it was never typed out.

Secondly, I'm sure I am not alone that as soon as the garbled words come, I don't bother to slog through them. You don't bother to type them. A suggestion, all due respect, why not post less and just take some more time to make the posts you are making come correct. </div></div> <span style="font-size: 11pt">
Guess what?? it is my problem I will have to deal wit it.
You on the other hand can come and go as you wish. you can tell me what you believe about the so called great Britain's design on Jamaica.
I and my family experienced it. The Brits built no government high schools in the country for as long as they were there.
Not one they developed not one single sewerage system in Jamaica while they were here.
every single high school was either built by privaten trust , or the church.They were also specifically for whites and near whites. That was up to 1962.
they will not return as long as they can get the primary products for pepper corn prices.
but just as the US did with Manley when he demanded more for the bauxite, they will do to jamaica if the can't keep getting their raw materials at below cost.
while they send just enough grants to make the country dependent on them, but not enough to be independent. As i have stated before I have come up against many, who had much more talk and eventually they disappear. i have even writing for many tears posting here and other boards. Every single economic prediction i have made, though unpopular when I did, turned out to be right.
This is not by luck. it us because i am aware of the guiding principles that result in the economic mire the world including Jamaica is in.
So have your time on the soap box. i will be dealing with this long after you have forgotten. The developed countries are responsible for the economic and social degradation in the third world.
The decide what we produce, and the price they pay for it. They also decide the price we pay for all our imports. So they make sure their proces kep us as poras th eday the Brits left us. In one day Jamaica went from hav8ing an large treasury to just enough to pay 2 weks of civil service wages.
.
since at independence they took every single penny from the treasury, leaving the country with only enough to pay 2 weeks government wages. They make sure we are never in a position to switch our products. Since they give us minimum quotas. Si we can't reduce production and gradually utilize the productive capacity into more profitable products.
They decide the prices,and pay so low that we have no surplus. That is about the export.
With imports, they decide the prices of the equipment we use, So the sell them at prices that make it unprofitable to use them in production of the goods they buy. So don't ell me about who is doing what to Jamaica. i was lucky to get a real good base in the economic history of the third world. That is after i studied economics.
Nobody studies applied economics any more. well at least i don't hear much from them. Since they would have been able to predict,and head off the economic problems that seem to recur and is endemic in the third world.
These problem is endemic in the third world because the developed world follows a policy to keep it so. </span>

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The people did not have lands to live on.Since 1865, there has been no effective national policy to solve that problem. They have policies to help the employed, bu what percentage of those people qualifies?
there is no policy of a right to live under certain minimum standards. There is not even any real strategy to house these people. One thing I can tell you is that this does not happening any country where the victims are white. I wonder why
</div></div>

The answer to your question is because you are ignorant of the history of IRELAND and GERMANY and I could go on but what is the point. </div></div> <span style="font-size: 11pt"> I know the history of Ireland probably more than you do. since I got it from a perspective different. I also know the history of Germany. at least Germany was a monarchy. while Ireland was split in 2. One being Scotland that went with the protestant King when he broke from Rome. The other Ireland that stayed with the Church. i also know that the 26 counties of southern Ireland was given independence by the Brits only because of the build up or war,and Britain did not believe it could fight a war on all fronts. They also did not get complete freedom. since Ireland was armed by Britain with inferior weapons. with an unarmed population, allowing them to be invaded in the future if needed.Britain also had cheap primary products from Ireland as they do in the third world too.</span>

[rudemonk]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

Dr. your ignorance is stunning, equal perhaps to your assumptions, conflations, and in spite of your proclamation of omniscience. It must be horrible for you to be so omniscient yet so powerless to implement your solutions. So when will you begin your gun drive and training program. Oh you haven't started it yet?

Exactly.

Frankly, your &quot;solutions&quot; are and will always be the realm of academic discussion, where they belong. Maybe you should write a book.

In the meantime, thank god, there are people in Jamaica in the trenches who are actually doing something about the problems their community faces. How you are ignorant of these people or why you feel them all to be foreign, escapes me as the lion's share are clearly from within the communities in which they are working diligently.

In any case, I'm not part of your scripted predictions, and thank god, neither are any of the people I am aware of doing the work to save the people and eventually, snuff out the flames by robbing them of fuel.

[rudemonk]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know the history of Ireland probably more than you do. since I got it from a perspective different. </div></div>

Apparently not, or you have just put the lie to your own statement.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know the history of Ireland probably more than you do. since I got it from a perspective different. </div></div>

Apparently not, or you have just put the lie to your own statement. </div></div> Lie to what statement?

[neutral]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> at least Germany was a monarchy. while Ireland was split in 2. One being Scotland that went with the protestant King when he broke from Rome. The other Ireland that stayed with the Church. </div></div>

Doc,it would be interesting to see the source of this statement,as far as I know irealand has never been a part of scotland,but I am willing to learn,please could you provide some evidence.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

I amj going to try to bring it back on topic.

[barosa]

Re: Philanthropist gives up on Jamaica-very discouraging sto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gourmet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What role would be left for the Govt whose #1 responsibility is to protect the lives of it's citizens regardless of race and background </div></div>
That is what a government SHOULD do, but do you really think that that is the priority of the jamaican government? </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">Point 1:</span>
at a certain point, my feeling is, <span style="font-weight: bold">what the government can do or can not do is almost irrelevant. If they need help to do their job, then so be it. That is just the reality. People can wring hands all day long and nothing will change, sometimes you have to not only lead the horse to water, but stick his muzzle in the water and twist his sack to make him drink.</span> Personally, I got tired of waiting for people to do what they should do and just moved forward. Most people want the exact same thing, what Americans defined as self evident inalienable truths. This is easy to see.

<span style="font-style: italic">Point 2:</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">The best kind, the most meaningful kind of transformative change, always comes from the grass roots and individuals whose efforts towards common goals converge.</span> <span style="font-style: italic">implementing ''solutions' which will only make the government's impossible job that much harder, seems completely self defeating.</span>
</div></div>
Monk, your point #1 (in bold) is well taken. Anyhow, it's my belief that thay cannot do that part of their job.. The time has long past when it was much easier to do. ~ They should try to, by getting the HELP they need to get it done... Your analogy of leading the horse to the water but forcing him to DRINK is where I think the HELP comes in, which brings the question to mind &quot;In what form? an interesting debate if you ask me... What are your thoughts in the type of help that would be useful and would it have an international component?

Point #2 (in bold) is valid and incontrivertible as history as shown as the best for &quot;transformative change&quot;... However, it does conjours up several scenarios in which our grass roots and individuals with common goals would unite to make this change possible. As some would say, we are engaging in &quot;rhetoric&quot; here, but without it, many thoughts and ideas would not come to the fore... We do know that the &quot;grass roots&quot; are always there. What we dont know is, where the individuals will emerge from and whether they will be locals or a mix with expatriates... BTW, please clarify your thoughts in the portion shown in italics...
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