Save GM with bold trade stroke

**Morpheous** · 06-02-2009, 12:03 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yuh nuh si the problem is that they <span style="font-weight: bold">are</span> buying more like that </div></div>
What about making? They should be making and buying -(meaning american manufacturers should making and the american public then buys from them) Following Austin & Morris brands in making and selling small cars that burns less fuel and cheaper to run & maintain is one way forward...

**Dyoll_73** · 06-02-2009, 12:09 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

A few years ago, I was watching a feature on <span style="font-style: italic">60 Minutes</span> (CBS) where an industrial psychologist (don't remember his name) was being interviewed. He was supposedly one of America's leading experts in that field, and he has been regularly called upon for consulting for some of America's largest corporations. He was hired by GM as a consultant when they were developing the concept of the Hummer. He told them about how the 'reptilian brain' worked, and the types of cars that appealed to certain people, the personality types of certain car owners, etc. He told GM that the Hummer would appeal to the most egocentric and macho of customers (mostly men, I guess). They were the type of people who cared about being seen, 'lording it over others', and a sense that they are above others, self-centered, the 'get the f-k out of my way before I run you over' types. Now you may say you know Hummer drivers/owners who are not like that, but that's the advice the psychologist gave to GM. He told them that if they went further and installed a machine gun (a toy one, of course) on the top of the vehicle, sales would go through the roof.

Well, GM went ahead and built the Hummer. It was built as a high-performance vehicle with lots of features. Of course, it was terrible in terms of fuel efficiency. The Hummer will be discontinued. People woke up. There's little demand for it. They chose to build a far that catered to the machismo of a certain segment of the population. It was short-sighted. This thinking partly explains what was wrong with GM.

**RichD** · 06-02-2009, 01:12 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yuh nuh si the problem is that they <span style="font-weight: bold">are</span> buying more like that </div></div>
What about making? They should be making and buying -(meaning american manufacturers should making and the american public then buys from them) Following Austin & Morris brands in making and selling small cars that burns less fuel and cheaper to run & maintain is one way forward...
</div></div>

the other day i heard a caller tot he radi say she used to drive a small import but had been rear ended a couple times so she went out and bought a Dodge ram 3500 king cab truck

**Morpheous** · 06-02-2009, 01:22 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

LOL I guess that justifies it... <span style="font-weight: bold">petrol guzzler</span>. So if she rear end smaddy else in a smaller vehicle should that smaddy go buy something bigger than hers' with a bull bar on the front.

You know suv (4x4) with bull bars are illegal in the uk for the reasons you stated. The tax on a suv is the highest to price the public outta vehicles that they aren't using them for the purpose for which they are intended. 4x4 off road vehicles wheh shiny everyday wid not a spec a off road mud pan it. Instead used to make school runs and pop down the shops... is this mentality that has to change.

Some people use to drive around on british roads with this on their 4x4 and it never been off road.

**barosa** · 06-02-2009, 01:32 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are lying in the bed that we made, taking hard knocks, the government helped to screw the consumers LET'S FACE IT...they are not off the hook....again, I do not know anything about trade imbalance..it is now psychological warfare. People must change their entire attitude to deal with all this, remembering the old adages: Charity begins at home; an don't hang your hat where your han cyaan reach.</div></div>
Brits, I say that your piece above is a nice summation of some of the many problems outlined above... When one ask, "How did we get here?" ; it's plain to see that the once prosperous "land of opportunity" has been "royally screwed" by those who were trusted to do "right" by us. The sad fact is, it was not done by outsiders and where outsiders were involved, it was with our collusion with them.... We "collectively" did it to ourselves"... <span style="font-weight: bold">Charity begins at home,</span> how laudable a concept? ; to those who take the most from the system, they have a word for it, It's called "Socialism"...

For many of the "already wealthy", America was seen as the land to "squeeze and fleece" the consumers in their rush to be added to the list of billionaires and multi-millionares. It was no co-incidence that "tax havens" were established for the rich, so that they would not pay their FAIR share to society to help their fellow citizens. It's all grab, grab, grab for themselves, give the poor welfare, the prisons built as "housing" and let them fend for themselves... My thoughts on GM: ~ Although I'd like to see the Auto Companies survive, I'm not particularly biased towards to GM...
_____________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where you are going...

**Tuff Gong** · 06-02-2009, 01:51 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets be realistic, and at the same time be honest wid ourselves here.

Reality: YES, America is a society of consumption no doubt. Honesty: However, where else are these foreign countries going to find a more lucrative consumer market to dump their stuff? </div></div>Let's be truthful.
In International Trade <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Dumping</span> is legal term covered by laws and regulations. All one-sided trade is not dumping. If that were the case the USA would be barred from trading in most of Africa, the Caribbean, Europe, etc.

You and others seem to be confusing and conflating a number of issues. First off the USA is market-based economy that relies on so-called Free Trade. The USA also unlike most country counts consumption as part of their total GDP, i.e. if consumption falls it registers in a visceral way on the USA’s GDP.

The USA also promotes individual choice, therefore it is not enough to supply a needed item in to the USA Market, the consumers must also prefer it against the other available choices.

The Big Three automakers have not done themselves any favours over the years; they have promoted the idea of motor travel working together to destroy any idea of a National Public Rail Service. For year companies such as GM has been at the forefront in the fight against any kind of mileage, safety regulations and clean air polices.

Given all the above and the fact that the Big Three have been circling the drains like beached whales for decades what eventually did them in was the USA march away from Free Markets ethos and the Capitalist System. Credit literally dried up!
The USA descended into Lassie Fare, dominated by idiotic military escapades, speculation on wafer thin paper, ponzi schemes and corrupt Governance.
In the end there was nothing underpinning the USA’s Economy but borrowing from China and outsourcing of consumer production and services to other to other suppliers.

Going forward to the relationship between consumption and the USA GDP, when consumer consumption falls and credit dries up to Industry you need not be a rocket scientist to figure out that industries will fail in bunches in the USA.

**britisha** · 06-02-2009, 02:46 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are lying in the bed that we made, taking hard knocks, the government helped to screw the consumers LET'S FACE IT...they are not off the hook....again, I do not know anything about trade imbalance..it is now psychological warfare. People must change their entire attitude to deal with all this, remembering the old adages: Charity begins at home; an don't hang your hat where your han cyaan reach.</div></div>
Brits, I say that your piece above is a nice summation of some of the many problems outlined above... When one ask, "How did we get here?" ; it's plain to see that the once prosperous "land of opportunity" has been "royally screwed" by those who were trusted to do "right" by us. The sad fact is, it was not done by outsiders and where outsiders were involved, it was with our collusion with them.... We "collectively" did it to ourselves"... <span style="font-weight: bold">Charity begins at home,</span> how laudable a concept? ; to those who take the most from the system, they have a word for it, It's called "Socialism"...

For many of the "already wealthy", America was seen as the land to "squeeze and fleece" the consumers in their rush to be added to the list of billionaires and multi-millionares. It was no co-incidence that "tax havens" were established for the rich, so that they would not pay their FAIR share to society to help their fellow citizens. It's all grab, grab, grab for themselves, give the poor welfare, the prisons built as "housing" and let them fend for themselves... My thoughts on GM: ~ Although I'd like to see the Auto Companies survive, I'm not particularly biased towards to GM... </div></div>

Thanks Barosa.

You have hit the nail right on the head, many have taken the loot and ran..hiding their money in off shore banks/institutions..the question becomes, now that the horse is gone from the barn, is bankruptcy a good option here for GM...i noticed the deafening silence when Chrysler did the same thing...I almost cried when I saw the dealerships that were being closed in New York and New Jersey...dealerships that have been around for a very long time, some for over 20 years...although the dealers had new inventory on the lots that Chrysler was refusing to take back. what a slap in their face !!!

I felt their pain, the last "thing" that they were holding on to, was being pulled out from under them..

Some of this is not clear, but if Obama is saying that he is trying to stimulate the economy, why put these dealers and thousands of employees out of business...I cannot fathom this, and think this is a very bad decision for whomever is advising him...Just an opinion, but closing dealerships doesn't seem to be the answer either. although they are going to GET MORE STIMULUS MONEY...I'm pooped out with all this that makes NO sense...looks as if somebody is guessing, digging into their trick bags for more magic. ..

One guy who got laid off, opened a new dealership with thousands of dollars, only to be among those slated to close...he said he had faith in the new administration and now this..

I'm sure that some of these people voted for him and thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, but now, many are having second thoughts...the big 3 which are as American as apple pie should not be allowed to go belly up for if they do..I shudder to think !!

As a side bar, Circuit City closed, Virgin is closing, or has closed, we see closure on almost every block around here in the wormy apple and this is supposed to be one of the stronger States economically...

**Dyoll_73** · 06-02-2009, 03:14 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Big Three automakers have not done themselves any favours over the years; they have promoted the idea of motor travel working together to destroy any idea of a National Public Rail Service. For year companies such as GM has been at the forefront in the fight against any kind of mileage, safety regulations and clean air polices.</div></div>

This is a key factor in understanding the situation GM, for example, finds itself in, and why I brought up the Hummer.

Going back to the 1950s with the largest public works project in the US, the Eisenhower Interstate highway system, rail - as a means of connecting the US mainland for travel - took a back seat to cars. The auto companies had lobbied hard for the project. If more people across the US took rail or public transport, and with tighter mileage and emissions standards, the sales and profits of the auto companies would be affected.

There is lingering perception that American autos are inferior to imports in terms of reliability and performance. An objective assessment will show that American autos are closing that gap - it's not yet closed, but they are closing it - in some brands closer than in others. An in a few cases, domestics out-perform their foreign counterparts. Where American autos lag behind their foreign counterparts remain - with few exceptions - in the area of fuel efficiency. A notable exception I mentioned above is with the new hybrid Ford Fusion, Ford's top selling car.

If an increasing number of people are more environmentally conscious, are aware of the geopolitics of oil, and at the basic level, are concerned with the cost of fueling their cars, these factors will translate into lower sales for companies whose cars have the worst mileage.

Combine poor fuel efficiency with - as you pointed out above - freezing credit and the financial crisis, and GM and Chrysler failed. Ford is struggling.

**j-kid** · 06-02-2009, 03:49 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The USA descended into Lassie Fare, dominated by idiotic military escapades, speculation on wafer thin paper, ponzi schemes and corrupt Governance.
In the end there was nothing underpinning the USA’s Economy but borrowing from China and outsourcing of consumer production and services to other to other suppliers.

</div></div>

Soh whe yuh implying? Di Powers Dat Be, inna North America, should have intervened to prevent those moves?

**Tuff Gong** · 06-02-2009, 04:24 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The USA descended into Lassie Fare, dominated by idiotic military escapades, speculation on wafer thin paper, ponzi schemes and corrupt Governance.
In the end there was nothing underpinning the USA’s Economy but borrowing from China and outsourcing of consumer production and services to other to other suppliers.

</div></div>

Soh whe yuh implying? Di Powers Dat Be, inna North America, should have intervened to prevent those moves? </div></div>

Well it was the Government of the last 8 years that took the country down that road the car companies even for their own historical transgressions was caught up in the wash. It was unlikely that they would have survived unscathed.

**Tuff Gong** · 06-02-2009, 04:24 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If more people across the US took rail or public transport, and with tighter mileage and emissions standards, the sales and profits of the auto companies would be affected. </div></div>Well depends on what affected means. It meant less money to lobby against progressive reforms while actively promoting regressive polices then that would be a good outcome. If it meant leas effort in building those High cruising behemoths then the opportunity was missed way back then.
Consider if the Big Three were forward looking enough to promote a National Coast to Coast Passenger Railway, how much cheaper Electricity would be?
How brighter the future of Alternative Energy Vehicles would be with huge installed base of ready made fueling points coast to coast.
Ford first car was a flex-fuel vehicle that was designed to run on ethanol made at home or a fossil based gasoline.
The GM EV1 was well advanced when GM crushed it in favour of focus on larger gas guzzling passenger cars.
It is no use pretending that the Big Three was a typical factory turning out products that folks demanded. That was for the most part a front.
What they are or were is part of the Oligarchy living on corporate welfare and spending vast sums lobbying against the interests of their own consumers while raking in dollars profiting from their collective success at bamboozling the buying public.

Who killed the Electric Car?
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Crushing the EV1, GM crushed itself</span>

**Dyoll_73** · 06-02-2009, 05:37 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">GM deals Hummer to Chinese buyer</span></span>

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors Corp. has signed a deal to sell its Hummer truck unit to a Chinese industrial company, a person with knowledge of the deal said Tuesday.

The news comes a day after GM (GMGMQ) filed for bankruptcy protection in New York. The company did not identify the buyer nor name a price, saying only that the deal would close by the end of September.

But a source identified the buyer as Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Company Ltd. in China.

As part of the deal, some GM plants will continue to build the Hummer brand for the new owner, at least for awhile. The company said its Shreveport, La., plant will keep building Hummers for the new owner until at least 2010.

Source

**Tuff Gong** · 06-02-2009, 06:04 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">GM deals Hummer to Chinese buyer</span></span>Source </div></div>If this goes through the Chinese should rapidly try to develop electrical power plants for these vehicles. There may be a place for Bummers and Excursions but it is surely not trying to run over a shopper in a Wal-Mart Parking Lot while executing a three-point turn.

**Tuff Gong** · 06-02-2009, 06:23 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is lingering perception that American autos are inferior to imports in terms of reliability and performance. </div></div>It is actually an argument that strangely enough I don't buy wholesale <span style="font-style: italic">(I mean the performance and reliability part)</span>. The lingering perception part is due to the Big Three's own notorious corporate philosophy of selling the customers poorly executed products, reinforced with slick advertising and protected by a phalanx of rabid lawyers as in the following example:

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">//</span> <span style="color: #3333FF">They shoot horses, don't they? Well, this is fish in a barrel. Of course the Pinto goes on the Worst list, but not because it was a particularly bad car — not particularly — but because it had a rather volatile nature. The car tended to erupt in flame in rear-end collisions. The Pinto is at the end of one of autodom's most notorious paper trails, the Ford Pinto memo , which ruthlessly calculates the cost of reinforcing the rear end ($121 million) versus the potential payout to victims ($50 million). Conclusion? Let 'em burn.</span><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">//</span>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">The 50 Worst Cars of All Time </span>

**barosa** · 06-02-2009, 07:57 PM

Re: Save GM with bold trade stroke

Originally posted by britisha:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have hit the nail right on the head, many have taken the loot and ran..hiding their money in off shore banks/institutions..the question becomes, now that the horse is gone from the barn, is bankruptcy a good option here for GM...i noticed the deafening silence when Chrysler did the same thing...I almost cried when I saw the dealerships that were being closed in New York and New Jersey...dealerships that have been around for a very long time, some for over 20 years...although the dealers had new inventory on the lots that Chrysler was refusing to take back. what a slap in their face !!!

I felt their pain, the last "thing" that they were holding on to, was being pulled out from under them..

Some of this is not clear, but if Obama is saying that he is trying to stimulate the economy, why put these dealers and thousands of employees out of business...I cannot fathom this, and think this is a very bad decision for whomever is advising him...Just an opinion, but closing dealerships doesn't seem to be the answer either. although they are going to GET MORE STIMULUS MONEY...I'm pooped out with all this that makes NO sense...looks as if somebody is guessing, digging into their trick bags for more magic. ..

One guy who got laid off, opened a new dealership with thousands of dollars, only to be among those slated to close...he said he had faith in the new administration and now this..

I'm sure that some of these people voted for him and thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, but now, many are having second thoughts...the big 3 which are as American as apple pie should not be allowed to go belly up for if they do..I shudder to think !!

As a side bar, Circuit City closed, Virgin is closing, or has closed, we see closure on almost every block around here in the wormy apple and this is supposed to be one of the stronger States economically...</div></div>

Britisha, Some of this wont be clear for some time to come and like you, I worry that if the outcome is not satifactory in say, 6 mths to a year, it could affect Obama's presidency adversely which I WOULD HATE TO SEE HAPPENED. When people lose jobs and are laid off, the blame will rise to the top, there is no escape... I watched the entire proceedings yesterday, because pecentagewise Canada, especially Ontario had to ante up 12.5% of the total package under Chapter 11 of the Bankrupcy Protection to keep GM/Canada as an integral part of GM... The rescue is not indefinite and is left to be seen what will happen. We will just have to hope and pray that GM will be able to pull through...

The sad fact about GM is, they lost a lot of support and goodwill among the car buying population because of a lot of past wrongs like fighting Environmental control, mandated seat belt proposals, efficient mileage proposals, etc, etc, too numerous to mention here. But the worst of the lot was when they colluded with the Big Oil companies and others to kill the Electric Car even when they had a good version the EV1, designed by them... It was being slowly accepted in California before a combination of factors led to its demise, they were all rounded up and destroyed. Imagine good cars being DESTROYED because they were ELECTRIC!! and before they caught on with the general public... that was wicked, very wicked if you asked me...

I still hope they can get their act together, if not, Ford, the Japanese and the Germans will eat what's left of their supper and all that rescue money down the drain which none of us want to contemplate... <span style="font-weight: bold">I have heard the latest, the HUMMER division will be sold to the Chinese... Also in the news, the Chinese will be utilized to build some cars and parts for GM under the Restructuring Plan.</span> ~ Where is all this going and where will it end?? Only God knows...
___________________________

It's not where you are from that matters,
it's where you are going...

Save GM with bold trade stroke

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